Premiership Teams pre 1945

[Leaping Lindner]

797 is the total now.

Interesting to note that only 3 players played in all three of those 1900,02,05 sides - James Matthews, Norm Pash and John Reedman.

It's a surprisingly high turn over of players considering it's only over 6 seasons. Harold Pash would have played in all 3 alongside his brother, but was injured in 1902.
As an aside Phil Sandland won the Magarey Medal in 1901 (his first season) he then left the club but came back and played centre in the 1902 GF (his only game for that year ans was BOG) he then played 2 games in 1903 and that ended his SA career.

[Leaping Lindner]

Here's a tough one for you all...

Premiership teams of the Patriotic League 1916-1918.

I've also got the runners-up teams.

Might have to get those boxes up here!

I think you will magpies power, I wasn't even aware they has a patriotic league in 1916-18. What were the teams?

It gets mentioned (albeit briefly) in some books. For example the fact that Dan Morairty started with South in the Patriotic League is mentioned in "SA Greats".
Also Bernard Whimpress did the most extensive work on it in "The South Australian Football Story" (including a photo of West Torrens' 1918 "Premiership" team)




An extract from the text

"The game did not die out altogether (during WW1) though, and a number of league teams combined with amateur sides and parkland clubs to organise matches of their own in what became known as the Patriotic League."

"The Railways Football Club wa sthe chief instigator behind the move to establish the Patriotic competition in 1916 with the other clubs being Port Adelaide, West Adelaide, Norwood, Prospect and West Torrens."

So following the text in 1916 the teams were

Railways, Port, West, Norwood, Prospect and Torrens. Railways pulled out early into the season.

In 1917 Norwood and West dropped out and were replaced by St Francis Xavier.

In 1918 there was 9 teams - Mitcham, Police, Kenilworth, Prospect, West Torrens, Port Adelaide, West Adelaide, South Adelaide and Sturt Central. Before the end of the season Prospect and Police pulled out.

[Adelaide Hawk]

Here are the premiership teams from 1933 to 1940 (excluding 1934, already supplied by Spell Check). Unfortunately, I only took these teams from the paper so I can only assume they are correct in that I don't know if there were any late changes. I also haven't supplied initials for most as I really haven't researched them all that closely.

STURT 1940
Coach: PT “Bo” Morton
F: Zucker, Morton, Lathlean
HF: Gibson, Harris, Lowe
C: Clark, Leak, Hardy
HB: N.Headon, Tuohy, Crawley
B: Lance, Warren, Bentley
Ruck: Bagshaw, Biggs, Langley
Res: Miller

PORT ADELAIDE 1939
Coach:Bob Quinn
F: Hender, Hollingworth, Brock
HF: Skelley, R.Dangerfield, I.Dangerfield
C: Carmichael. Roberts, Greening
HB: Bampton, Schumann, Johnston
B: McLean, Obst, Rudd
Ruck: Kelleway, Reval, Quinn
Res: Abbott

SOUTH ADELAIDE 1938
Coach: Len Ashby
F: Hardiman, Rosewarne, Jack Dawes
HF: Rusby, Murdy, Brown
C: Cahill, Templeton, Donovan
HB: Jim Dawes, Cockburn, Sterzl
B: Mulcahy, Boyle, Appleton
Ruck: Pryor, Jobson, Lapthorne
Res: Todd

PORT ADELAIDE 1937
Coach: Shine Hosking
F: J.Doyle, S.Jacquier, N.Hender
HF: J.Heath, A.Hollingworth, L.Roberts
C: J.Dermody, C.Johnston, W.Whicker
HB: B.Bampton, K.Obst, J.Bennett
B: R.Meers, K.West, L.Rudd
Ruck: C.Wightman, A.Reval, R.Quinn
Res: Schupelius

PORT ADELAIDE 1936
Coach: Shine Hosking
F: Hay, Prideaux, Hender
HF: Kelleway, Hollingworth, Rudd
C: Dermody, Johnston, Whicker
HB: Eaton, Obst, Bampton
B: Meers, West, Jacquier
Ruck: Wightman, Reval, Quinn
Res: Wilkinson

SOUTH ADELAIDE 1935
Coach: Vic Johnson
F: Rusby, Munro, Forrester
HF: Rosewarne, Jack Dawes, Murdy
C: Cahill, Raymond, Sandercock
HB: Jim Dawes, Cockburn, Sterzl
B: Jobson, Rose, Mulcahy
Ruck: Masters, Reddaway, Tully
Res: Egan

WEST TORRENS 1933
Coach: Shine Hosking
F: Wilson, Conroy, McKenzie
HF: McLoughlin, Foote, Perkins
C: Shepherd, Frogley, Hanrahan
HB: Downs, Read, Simpson
B: Adcock, Quinn, Bridgman
Ruck: Williamson, Ashby, Drury
Res: McKnight

[Adelaide Hawk]

The 1923 team:

NORWOOD 1923
Coach: Tom Leahy
Captain: Syd White
F: Ern Wadham, Basil Scott, William Burns
HF: William Heinrich, Philip K Lee, Spencer Sibley
C: Wybert Symonds, Alick Lill, Charles Hepburn
HB: Guy Stephens, Walter Scott, Syd White
B: Reg Plunkett, Syd Ackland, Lyall Mutton
Ruck: William "Tiger" Potts, HW "Dick" Grantley, Bertram Schumacher

[Adelaide Hawk]

So following the text in 1916 the teams were

Railways, Port, West, Norwood, Prospect and Torrens. Railways pulled out early into the season.

In 1917 Norwood and West dropped out and were replaced by St Francis Xavier.

What do you think LL, should I be including the 1916 matches in my Norwood records? Do you know if these are included in any official SANFL records?

[Magpiespower]

Port were Patriotic League Premiers in 1916-1917.

Unfortunately, I don't have those premiership teams...

Do you know if these are included in any official SANFL records?

A pet hate of mine is how the SANFL official records include pre-season comp games and credit 'war' games to players.

Reakon only minor round and finals games should count...

[Adelaide Hawk]

Port were Patriotic League Premiers in 1916-1917.

Unfortunately, I don't have those premiership teams...

Do you know if these are included in any official SANFL records?

A pet hate of mine is how the SANFL official records include pre-season comp games and credit 'war' games to players.

Reakon only minor round and finals games should count...

I tend to agree with this. However, a lot of the pre-seaon games were sanctioned by the SANFL in accredited competitions, so I guess they need to be recorded somewhere. I know that when compiling Norwood's statistics we have quite a number of players who represented the club, but only in these matches. Also, some of them were very important matches such as Champions of Australia, etc, so I guess to be consistent we need to include them all.

[Leaping Lindner]

So following the text in 1916 the teams were

Railways, Port, West, Norwood, Prospect and Torrens. Railways pulled out early into the season.

In 1917 Norwood and West dropped out and were replaced by St Francis Xavier.

What do you think LL, should I be including the 1916 matches in my Norwood records? Do you know if these are included in any official SANFL records?

Curiosity factor only for mine. I'm sure that Games played in these years weren't included in official records
The WW2 comp was organised by the league, had budgets, gave out shields to the premiers and even had substationial press coverage considering what was going on in the World at the time. None of these things as far as I can tell happened in the Patriotic Comp.

[Leaping Lindner]

Port were Patriotic League Premiers in 1916-1917.

Unfortunately, I don't have those premiership teams...

Do you know if these are included in any official SANFL records?

A pet hate of mine is how the SANFL official records include pre-season comp games and credit 'war' games to players.

Reakon only minor round and finals games should count...

I tend to agree with this. However, a lot of the pre-seaon games were sanctioned by the SANFL in accredited competitions, so I guess they need to be recorded somewhere. I know that when compiling Norwood's statistics we have quite a number of players who represented the club, but only in these matches. Also, some of them were very important matches such as Champions of Australia, etc, so I guess to be consistent we need to include them all.

This is were it gets grey. Some official records don't count COA games or Night Comps whereas North beating Carlton in 1972 and beating Melbourne and Collingwood in 1986 are three of my favourite games ever.

[Magpiespower]

IIRC the VFL/AFL did a re-count several years ago.

Hence Keith Greig went from 300 games to 294.

Many others 'lost' games as well...

[spell_check]

As far as I know the 1916-18 games don't count towards game totals.

With the other pre season matches and Champions of Australia games etc. I believe they should be excluded as well from the official game tally, but noted that players did play in these games by putting the overall total in brackets next to the official tally. (As players who played 200 matches are still recoginsed as being part of the '200 club') Fred Bills is currently credited with 313 matches, but as shown in the recently released West Torrens book, he played 306 premiership matches.

[Ecky]

As far as I know the 1916-18 games don't count towards game totals.

With the other pre season matches and Champions of Australia games etc. I believe they should be excluded as well from the official game tally, but noted that players did play in these games by putting the overall total in brackets next to the official tally. (As players who played 200 matches are still recoginsed as being part of the '200 club') Fred Bills is currently credited with 313 matches, but as shown in the recently released West Torrens book, he played 306 premiership matches.

I believe that the SANFL has never made any definitive rulings on which games are "official" and which aren't. Is this correct? It seems to be left up to each historian to decide their own interpretation...

[Magpiespower]

I believe they should be excluded as well from the official game tally, but noted that players did play in these games by putting the overall total in brackets next to the official tally.

That could get a little messy.

I'd prefer if they just created a separate category, similar to how the AFL have the 'Night' category.

But since the SANFL has been involved in so many different competitions - Patriotic League, Champions of Australia, NFL, Night comps - might need something as generic as 'Other.'

Must also factor into the equation: state games credited to players representing SA at the same time their SANFL clubs were playing.

If a re-count of SANFL games ever does eventuate, reakon that the players who have qualified for the '200 Club' should remain members, even if their games tally no longer reaches this milestone.

[spell_check]

Could be. I thought that the 60s' Night Series (From 1962), the Championship of Australia Series, the 1976 NFL Cup, the 1977-79 NFL Series, the 1980-86 VFL Night Series and the 1982-94 SANFL Night Series were the only ones that counted.

[spell_check]

I believe they should be excluded as well from the official game tally, but noted that players did play in these games by putting the overall total in brackets next to the official tally.

That could get a little messy.

I'd prefer if they just created a separate category, similar to how the AFL have the 'Night' category.

But since the SANFL has been involved in so many different competitions - Patriotic League, Champions of Australia, NFL, Night comps - might need something as generic as 'Other.'

Must also factor into the equation: state games credited to players representing SA at the same time their SANFL clubs were playing.

If a re-count of SANFL games ever does eventuate, reakon that the players who have qualified for the '200 Club' should remain members, even if their games tally no longer reaches this milestone.

Yeah that's what I mean - in regards to the 200 Club. In the AFL 'yearbooks' that come out each year, they've got the 200 Club which includes players who need the extra matches to get there are included.

The VFL ruled that State games played when club matches were played are not included in the club total. But the trouble is, the SANFL this year have included all State matches in the totals that are published in the Budget each week!

[spell_check]

The number of premiership players I now have from the years 1900, 1902, 1905, 1920, 1923, 1925, 1929-31 and 1933 onwards is 942.

[Adelaide Hawk]

Spelly, I have the team lists for the Norwood premierships in 1904, 1907 & 1922. I don't have the line-ups at this stage, so I'll just offer the names for now.

1904
A.Bahr, C.G.Gwynne, D.Cowan, D.Dawson, E.A.G.Smith, G.Webb, G.C.Barnes, H.M.Miller, J.Morrison, J.H.Gosse, L.L.Hill, L.R.Hill, N.C.Gryst, P.M.Newland, R.J.B.Townsend, S.Robinson, T.Gibbons, W.R.Miller.

1907
A.Bahr, C.G.Gwynne, D.Cowan, E.Lewis, E.A.G.Smith, G.C.Barnes, H.M.Miller, J.Morrison, L.Chamberlain, L.Lewis, L.L.Hill, L.R.Hill, O.J.Murphy, W.R.Miller, R.J.B.Townsend, T.Gibbons, W.Padman, W.H.D.Stoddart

1922 Coach: Tom Leahy
B.Schumacher, B.A.Scott, C.Close, C.Hepburn, C.Toovey, E.Wadham, G.Stephens, H.Johns, H.W.Grantley, R.Bent, L.Bryant, M.Dobson, R.Townley, S.Sibley, S.White, T.Hart, W.Scott, W.K.Potts

[Adelaide Hawk]

IIRC the VFL/AFL did a re-count several years ago.

Hence Keith Greig went from 300 games to 294.

Many others 'lost' games as well...

Yeah, I recall Leigh Matthews went from 340 games to 332. I think it had something to do with State Games didn't it?

[Adelaide Hawk]

As far as I know the 1916-18 games don't count towards game totals.

With the other pre season matches and Champions of Australia games etc. I believe they should be excluded as well from the official game tally, but noted that players did play in these games by putting the overall total in brackets next to the official tally. (As players who played 200 matches are still recoginsed as being part of the '200 club') Fred Bills is currently credited with 313 matches, but as shown in the recently released West Torrens book, he played 306 premiership matches.

This begs the question .. "When did Fred Bills officially record his 300th game?". I think unless we include these matches, we are altering aspects of football history other than just statistical. Players such as Phil Gallagher played 292 games for Norwood and 8 state games making him a 300 game player. I think this record should stand because state matches are representative of the SANFL.

[Adelaide Hawk]

I believe that the SANFL has never made any definitive rulings on which games are "official" and which aren't. Is this correct? It seems to be left up to each historian to decide their own interpretation...

I believe you are correct. I've asked many people keeping stats, officially or otherwise, and nobody can give the definitive answer.