Round 7: Adelaide v Western Bulldogs

[JK]

I respect all opinions on where the Crows are at, but my own thoughts lean to those you've touched on FD in an excellent post.

Actually think the Crows are paying the price at the moment for some ordinary draft selections over the last 10 years, and a penchant for over reliance on older players, but the important thing is they've begun to address it ... It's going to test the patience of many, because the wait could well be 5 years or so.

[FD88]

I respect all opinions on where the Crows are at, but my own thoughts lean to those you've touched on FD in an excellent post.

Actually think the Crows are paying the price at the moment for some ordinary draft selections over the last 10 years, and a penchant for over reliance on older players, but the important thing is they've begun to address it ... It's going to test the patience of many, because the wait could well be 5 years or so.

I think we're more paying for our drafting in the pre-Craig era. Under Ayres we had a terrible drafting strike rate with all but the rookie draft; since Craig took over we've blooded a lot of players who are at least AFL standard, many headed for great careers. Sure the first rounders have still been a problem but in the wash up we are getting a lot more out of our time at the draft table now. Whether that translates into performance on the field...we can only hope the process plays out as planned.

[JK]

Yeah well 10 years covers the Ayres era mate

Would actually be interesting to see what our drafting was like during the blight era .. We seemed to pick up some good "bits n pieces" players who suited a team set to challenge, players like James, Sampson, Thiessen, Rintoul etc, but can't recall too many that went on to be long term quality players.

Not sure it's right to be pointing at the coaches though, when really they are at the mercy of those responsible for talent identification and recruiting ... Fantasia's replacement (Rendell) and the introduction of Alan Stewart seems to be off to a good start.

[SCD]

Excellent post FD.. Couldn't agree more..

The only thing that concerns me about this is we have "senior" blokes like Doughty and Symes that seem to get games based on poor performances and skill errors week after week.. "Fairweather" Doughty couldn't even hold marks or hit simple handball targets today on a fine, fairweather day and I would prefer an extra couple of kids (Jacky & Cook) to be developed while the types of McLeod and Edwards and Goodwin are still there...

Maric has to be in next week, Moran just didn't give us enough in the middle (thought Tippett was clearly the best big man on the ground today - both his ruckwork and around the ground)...

Watching TV can make you miss a lot of things, so i'd be interested to find out off you guys how often we had no one back in the forward 50?? Seemed we were running and carrying and getting in trouble because we didn't have anyone at home to kick an "out" ball to.. that's to me where a Tippett up forward (and staying no more then 50m from home) would be a small, but effective change to our current structure.

[FD88]

Excellent post FD.. Couldn't agree more..

The only thing that concerns me about this is we have "senior" blokes like Doughty and Symes that seem to get games based on poor performances and skill errors week after week.. "Fairweather" Doughty couldn't even hold marks or hit simple handball targets today on a fine, fairweather day and I would prefer an extra couple of kids (Jacky & Cook) to be developed while the types of McLeod and Edwards and Goodwin are still there...

This is a really interesting one imo. I think it comes back to what the club perceives as the right balance between young and mature bodies. Obviously if we go in with too many kids we'll be bullied and knocked off the footy with ease, could upset their development etc, on the same token we can't pack the side full of mature bodies just to plug holes. Personally I'd do away with Doughty for Jacky because we need a developing fast small forward presence inside 50, and leave Symes there to retain some of that hardness at the contest (plus he can play Dogga's role to a respectable standard).

Maric has to be in next week, Moran just didn't give us enough in the middle (thought Tippett was clearly the best big man on the ground today - both his ruckwork and around the ground)...

Yeah Moran lacks desire at the contest. You really notice Tippett with the way he throws himself relentlessly in the direction of the ball, while Moran is content to give one effort then hang back.

Watching TV can make you miss a lot of things, so i'd be interested to find out off you guys how often we had no one back in the forward 50?? Seemed we were running and carrying and getting in trouble because we didn't have anyone at home to kick an "out" ball to.. that's to me where a Tippett up forward (and staying no more then 50m from home) would be a small, but effective change to our current structure.

We were keen on isolating Walker with one opponent inside 50 while the rest pushed up the ground, which did occasionally create a lack of options if Tex himself presented further up. It's certainly an aspect of the structure that needs improving, a bit to do with workrate imo (Danger spent a bit of time up forward and had an interrupted pre season...a few kids with limited tanks out there just now). Was great to see Tex kick a few and look dangerous though.

McKernan looms as a potential key with his strong marking, mobility and aggressiveness should he develop. Working him into the structure would mean being able to have a pack splitter in the goal square while Tippett rucks, and further freeing Tex up to roam around the arc. Would be great to have two Tippetts...but here's hoping eh

[Zorro]

Just on Tippett, he would have to be close to the most important player on the selection table right now. He is literally getting better every game and has a ferocity at the contest. He's is the most effective big man in the ruck, around the ground and up forward.

Went to the game today and was interested but excited to see Tex start one out in the forward 50. We all knew this kid was talented but he's starting to realise the workrate required at this level but also believing he belongs there. Expect to see a few bags from him this year against lesser lights and fall away perhaps a bit later in the season.

Dangerfield needs to realise this isn't the under 18 comp and you can't take every bloke on. Sure be confident but he's caught holding the ball a bit too often. His pack work is great to watch though and he'll only get better.

McLeod, who I am a huge fan of, I have to say it is playing like he has lost the care factor. His skills and decision making are down and these aren't things you lose with age.

On the game, agree with your post FD the disposal and execution let the Crows down, handballing too high or low, too much hang time on kicks, on the rare occasion we saw a kick. Plenty of opportunity to put scoreboard pressure on in the first half against a side that was clearly down on form, then they lifted their efficiency and bang, game over.

On the crowd, I cringe to sit there wearing the crows colours sometimes listening to what comes out. Surely after 19 years at the theatre some of these ppl would understand the rules and stop bagging the players for trying to handball their way through a zone out of trouble. At one stage Reilly was bagged for poor disposal as he was tackled while getting rid of it! Clearly we don't have the ability to deliver the gameplan for 4 qtrs yet but some positive signs with the kids.

Bullies were very average for half a game, Crows were very average for 3 qtrs, that was the difference.

[Hondo]

Actually think the Crows are paying the price at the moment for some ordinary draft selections over the last 10 years, and a penchant for over reliance on older players, but the important thing is they've begun to address it ... It's going to test the patience of many, because the wait could well be 5 years or so.

I agree with you here CP. If you look at our drafting from say 1997-2004 it makes for alarming reading. One being trading the no 11 or 12 draft pick we received for Shaun Rehn to Port for Matthew Bode. Bode was a real goer and played some great games .... however Port used that pick to draft Shaun Burgoyne. Then there's Watts, Meesen & Angwin first round draft picks that didn't work. You won't turn every first round pick into a career player, but to miss all 3 leaves a big gap in the current list.

I think the last 3 years (last 2 in particular) have been a vast improvement since Alan Stewart & Matt Rendell have been running things.

The next 2 years at least will be tough which will lead to the anti-NC brigade coming out in force as we have already seen on the main AFL board today.

[SCD]

Thanks FD...
Tex looked like he's developing into the real package today - his body work, marking and kicking was terrific..
give him 2-3 years of pre-seasons in the gym and building the tank and I can see a bit of a Brown or Riewoldt in the way he moves and his footy smarts..

I'm over Doughty and his poor skills.. he just burns the ball too often for my liking.. I don't think we need an older player who plays like he does... Symes - i'm happy to give a chance to, given his age - but his skills are a major concern IMO...

[Bulldogs007]

It is opinions and posts like this that infuriate the **** out of me. Did you watch the game mate? Did you?! We had ample opportunity to punish the Bulldogs today and our skill execution in patches cost us dearly. Handballs either missing targets or being dished out at awkward heights, forcing our players to have to sit and wait or collect on the half-volley; this allows the opposition to get at you and force turnovers. Our delivery into the forward line is inconsistent - our forwards create space and we don't kick to their advantage. Multiple times today Stevens, Walker and co. would baulk backwards, create a pocket of space goalside and the kick inside 50 would fall short, making the defender's job a piece of cake. Even worse is our inability to consistently kick adequately to a lead. Again, Walker, Stevens and co. would regularly get out on leads and instead of hitting their chests lace out we'd kick over their heads, or put too much hangtime on the footy forcing them to stop, prop and get picked off by the defense (which has more time to get back to a footy that hangs in the air for ages).

The promising thing today was that for patches we were able to execute and produce some sparkling footy, it's just not happening over the course of an entire game. Both inexperience and the waning of our senior players (Mcleod especially) are major contributing factors to this. At least with them struggling -now- we start to learn to play without so much of their influence before they've actually retired; the same deal as when Ricciuto fell off the scene in late 2006 and his final year in 2007. This means that by the time they do say goodbye, we won't experience a sharp decline in performance as we would if they were in top flight all the way through to the end.

There are some supremely talented footballers in this team now; Taylor Walker is special, averaging just a fraction under 2 goals a game in his first AFL season, in a side that doesn't deliver overly well to its forwards, and for much of the season so far spending large portions of games on the pine, it's an outstanding effort. Take a look at the first year stats of some of the great key forwards going around today, he's tracking very well against them. Great signs.

Mackay is smooth and yes, he's making some skill errors as he starts to spend more time on ground and become exposed to more of the heat of AFL football but his basic skill base is excellent, the kicking technique very sound. His poise is exceptional and he's nippy around the packs. Another with a big future.

I could go on but there's no need, the list has got the makings of a strong, exciting outfit in the coming years, the sad fact is we're going to have to cope with some tough games of footy as the foundation continues to build. The gameplan (which despite all the bleating is tactically quite sound if you plot it out on paper vs. opposition gameplans; it's not a total clone of the Hawthorn zone but a clever variation that with fluent, sound execution will produce high scores; we just ain't executing yet!) will see minor tweaks along the way and we'll say goodbye to some favourite sons. The quality will be sorted from the dime-a-dozen trade bait (as we're seeing...not naming names), but at the end of it the club is giving itself the best chance to become a flag threat again.

We all thought we were little to no chance of a flag this year, and expected another couple of years at least before that changed, yet now we're shocked that we are losing? It's so easy to bag a team on the basis of "we're not winning, so the gameplan must be wrong" when it just isn't that simple. Stick with them; if we can't all see the light at the end of the tunnel in 12 months' time, then it's time to start asking questions.[/quote]


Mate. expecting so much more from the Crows this season, fittest team in the comp fastest team in the comp, why cant we use this pace by moving the ball fast to, why go back wards why just play chip chip. fuc_en Crow ball. every other side seems to be able to go straight and hit targets decent sides anyway, crows should just play melbourne every week.

[Footy Smart]

It is opinions and posts like this that infuriate the **** out of me. Did you watch the game mate? Did you?! We had ample opportunity to punish the Bulldogs today and our skill execution in patches cost us dearly. Handballs either missing targets or being dished out at awkward heights, forcing our players to have to sit and wait or collect on the half-volley; this allows the opposition to get at you and force turnovers. Our delivery into the forward line is inconsistent - our forwards create space and we don't kick to their advantage. Multiple times today Stevens, Walker and co. would baulk backwards, create a pocket of space goalside and the kick inside 50 would fall short, making the defender's job a piece of cake. Even worse is our inability to consistently kick adequately to a lead. Again, Walker, Stevens and co. would regularly get out on leads and instead of hitting their chests lace out we'd kick over their heads, or put too much hangtime on the footy forcing them to stop, prop and get picked off by the defense (which has more time to get back to a footy that hangs in the air for ages).

The promising thing today was that for patches we were able to execute and produce some sparkling footy, it's just not happening over the course of an entire game. Both inexperience and the waning of our senior players (Mcleod especially) are major contributing factors to this. At least with them struggling -now- we start to learn to play without so much of their influence before they've actually retired; the same deal as when Ricciuto fell off the scene in late 2006 and his final year in 2007. This means that by the time they do say goodbye, we won't experience a sharp decline in performance as we would if they were in top flight all the way through to the end.

There are some supremely talented footballers in this team now; Taylor Walker is special, averaging just a fraction under 2 goals a game in his first AFL season, in a side that doesn't deliver overly well to its forwards, and for much of the season so far spending large portions of games on the pine, it's an outstanding effort. Take a look at the first year stats of some of the great key forwards going around today, he's tracking very well against them. Great signs.

Mackay is smooth and yes, he's making some skill errors as he starts to spend more time on ground and become exposed to more of the heat of AFL football but his basic skill base is excellent, the kicking technique very sound. His poise is exceptional and he's nippy around the packs. Another with a big future.

I could go on but there's no need, the list has got the makings of a strong, exciting outfit in the coming years, the sad fact is we're going to have to cope with some tough games of footy as the foundation continues to build. The gameplan (which despite all the bleating is tactically quite sound if you plot it out on paper vs. opposition gameplans; it's not a total clone of the Hawthorn zone but a clever variation that with fluent, sound execution will produce high scores; we just ain't executing yet!) will see minor tweaks along the way and we'll say goodbye to some favourite sons. The quality will be sorted from the dime-a-dozen trade bait (as we're seeing...not naming names), but at the end of it the club is giving itself the best chance to become a flag threat again.

We all thought we were little to no chance of a flag this year, and expected another couple of years at least before that changed, yet now we're shocked that we are losing? It's so easy to bag a team on the basis of "we're not winning, so the gameplan must be wrong" when it just isn't that simple. Stick with them; if we can't all see the light at the end of the tunnel in 12 months' time, then it's time to start asking questions.

Mate. expecting so much more from the Crows this season, fittest team in the comp fastest team in the comp, why cant we use this pace by moving the ball fast to, why go back wards why just play chip chip. fuc_en Crow ball. every other side seems to be able to go straight and hit targets decent sides anyway, crows should just play melbourne every week.[/quote]

Fastest team in the comp??? are you watching the same team??? we are no where near as fast as other teams esspecially WB

[Gingernuts]

Great posting FD88, couldn't have said it any better.

It definitely came down to disposal yesterday, even simple handballs were off target unfortunately. I reckon 4 or 5 doggies goals came from turnovers from poor disposal, and that was pretty much the final margin.

It's also a matter of consistency. Against the Saints, Cats, and now the Doggies we've played 3 quarters of good footy but been pedestrians for 1 quarter, costing us the game. This is just inexperience really.

The Showdown was the only absolute shocker of a game the season so far IMO, there have been positives to take out of all other games whether it was a win or loss.

Yesterday the positives were:
- Walker - looked awesome when he had decent delivery.
- Positive Football - The boys took the game on yesterday finally, it was just their disposal that let them down.

It'll come together, I'm not too worried at this stage.

[JK]

If you compare the two lists in yesterdays game, the Dogs seemed to get more out of their older blokes, ie, Akker and Johnson (vs say McLeod and Goodwin) and Lake (vs Rutten), and then players like Griffen, Cooney, Hargraves, Hahn, Hill, Murphy, Gilbee, Gianciracusa, Minson most of whom have been in the system much longer than Van Berlo, Dangerfield, Mackay, Knights, Petrenko, Ottens etc.

Those Bulldogs players mentioned have been inconsistent for years (and perhaps still are) just as Goddard, Ball, Dal Santo, Montagna, Milne, Baker, Gilbert etc have been for the Saints, but now appear to be hitting a point of maturation ... There's just no replacement for the number of years of pre-season and games worth of experience.

You could run through any of the teams (as someone mentioned above with Geelong) to see that these younger types really don't hit their straps until about 25 years of age onwards.

[Footy Smart]

Agreed CP ive been saying it for the last 2 years now that the good teams players ae in the system for 3-5 years get 80-100 games under the belt and then show true potential. It takes time to build a premership team and the window closes quickly so you have to take your chance.

[JK]

Blokes like Bock and even Vardy and Wellman are a great example of that FS .. Even a gun like Riewoldt has battled with inconsistency and areas of his game (ie, accuracy) and it's only now after 5 or 6 years that he's showing that real maturity in his game.

[Zelezny Chucks]

Surely Johncock has to go at seasons end?? He runs around like a chook with no head and when he finally makes a decision turns it over.

At one stage he was allowed to roam across half back getting kicks and did no damage whatsoever.

[JK]

Surely Johncock has to go at seasons end?? He runs around like a chook with no head and when he finally makes a decision turns it over.

At one stage he was allowed to roam across half back getting kicks and did no damage whatsoever.

I thought Stiffy looked a little out of sorts yesterday too, I wonder if it's worth giving him a run on ball, or as that Alwyn Davey type forward designed to be the hunter in the crows Forward half?

[Footy Smart]

Surely Johncock has to go at seasons end?? He runs around like a chook with no head and when he finally makes a decision turns it over.

At one stage he was allowed to roam across half back getting kicks and did no damage whatsoever.

Johncock is in out best 21 so i wouldnt think he is even close to the gun. His confidence is down yes but i attribute that to the fact he kicks in. He isnt the person to kick in and when a few go against you its a definate hit to yor confidence. Jochncok is safe. Once again more knee jerk reactions if you get rid of johncock who do you replace him with?

[Zelezny Chucks]

Surely Johncock has to go at seasons end?? He runs around like a chook with no head and when he finally makes a decision turns it over.

At one stage he was allowed to roam across half back getting kicks and did no damage whatsoever.

Johncock is in out best 21 so i wouldnt think he is even close to the gun. His confidence is down yes but i attribute that to the fact he kicks in. He isnt the person to kick in and when a few go against you its a definate hit to yor confidence. Jochncok is safe. Once again more knee jerk reactions if you get rid of johncock who do you replace him with?

Then give him a run in the SANFL to give him some confidence. At the moment it's hard to say who you would play their because none of them have been given a run to prove themselves.

I think Petrenko might be a good option to take the small forward it would give him a responsibility and would probably be able to create similar run to Johncock. At the moment he is struggling to get into the game and is just in the side each week not really contributing.

At the moment I think the Crows main problem is decision making players running towards goal are handballing to flat-footed players under pressure. I lost track of the times running out of the backlines a player handballed to someone with their back to the crows goals and a player within a metre of them.

I guess it could be put down to panicking under pressure, but when you hear Neil Craig saying that the quick handballing is part of their game plan, and you see players with the experience of McLeod and Edwards committing these skill errors as well it begs the question is the game plan suited to the skill level of the squad?

[Footy Smart]

At the moment I think the Crows main problem is decision making players running towards goal are handballing to flat-footed players under pressure. I lost track of the times running out of the backlines a player handballed to someone with their back to the crows goals and a player within a metre of them.

I guess it could be put down to panicking under pressure, but when you hear Neil Craig saying that the quick handballing is part of their game plan, and you see players with the experience of McLeod and Edwards committing these skill errors as well it begs the question is the game plan suited to the skill level of the squad

I think you will find that the way we played yesterday was a different game plan to what we have been playing with. Im pretty sure craigy said something in his press conference that the run and carry handball out of defence will improve because we have oly practiced it this week. It is the best way to break the zones of teams and look at geelong thats how they play they run carry and take risks via hand then hit a lead up target. We havent quite got it right but it will come.... there is always next week to put into action after another week working on it on the track.

[Zelezny Chucks]

At the moment I think the Crows main problem is decision making players running towards goal are handballing to flat-footed players under pressure. I lost track of the times running out of the backlines a player handballed to someone with their back to the crows goals and a player within a metre of them.

I guess it could be put down to panicking under pressure, but when you hear Neil Craig saying that the quick handballing is part of their game plan, and you see players with the experience of McLeod and Edwards committing these skill errors as well it begs the question is the game plan suited to the skill level of the squad

I think you will find that the way we played yesterday was a different game plan to what we have been playing with. Im pretty sure craigy said something in his press conference that the run and carry handball out of defence will improve because we have oly practiced it this week. It is the best way to break the zones of teams and look at geelong thats how they play they run carry and take risks via hand then hit a lead up target. We havent quite got it right but it will come.... there is always next week to put into action after another week working on it on the track.

Game plan or not everyone knows you don't handball to a stationary target who is under pressure I'm sure the game plan doesn't call for that.

That gameplan works for Geelong because they have the skill level and calmness under pressure to make the right decision. Also they are able to wrap players up in their tackles and also break tackles. Bigger bodies of Geelong allow this, Van Berlo, Douglas etc. can't break these tackles. Ablett, Bartel, Corey, Kelly can.