And people DON'T want to blame Pagan?

[Benchwarmer]

I looked through the AFL Year Book for 2007 a short while ago and came up with some good arguments for Pagan's send-off.

Carlton's recruiting since the drafts began has been nothing short of abysmal. In the pre-Pagan days we had such gems as:

Craig Devonport (ex-St. Kilda) 1 game
Mick McGuane (ex-Collingwood) 3 games and an almighty blue with Matthew Hogg
Sean Charles (ex-Melbourne) 1 game
Michael Mansfield (ex-Geelong)
Stephen O'Reilly (ex-Geelong)
Corey McKernan (ex-North Melb)

Since Denis came to the club we have had the following play at Princes Park:

Mick Martyn (ex-North Melb) limped his way to 300 games despite not being fit
Daniel Harford (ex-Hawthorn)
Digby Morrell (ex-North Melb)
David Teague (ex-North Melb)
Ricky Mott (ex-Fremantle ROOKIE LIST!)
Glen Bowyer (ex-Hawthorn)
Callum Chambers (ex-Eagles)
Troy Longmuir (ex-Fremantle)
Jason Saddington (ex-Sydney)
Dylan McLaren (ex-Brisbane)

Most of these guys were of or were going to be of little benefit to the club beyond a three year period.

Two notable players who were selected with the draft picks traded away were BARRY HALL (for Craig Devonport in 1995) and PAUL CHAPMAN (for Michael Mansfield in 1999). Food for thought!

I wonder why we have been struggling!

Denis would have had some input into these recruits and for that he has to accept a good proportion of the blame for having made no progress since he turned up in the summer of 2002/03.

We had no backline when he turned up ... and we still don't have one and no prospect of a decent one for a while yet.

At least we can put century scores on the board ... every now and then to at least have some hope. But when you have no defence, you are going to get 20 goals kicked against you most weeks and lose at least every four out of five.

I was considering signing up as an interstate member about six weeks ago but seeing as though the two Carlton matches in Perth had been played it wouldn't have been of great benefit this season ... at the moment, next season I will put the $105 towards supporting one of the East Fremantle's WAAFL affiliate clubs as a member or player sponsor on top of the volunteer support I provide for East Fremantle.

I may forgive all this once we have skipped clear of the bottom three for a prolonged period of time, but I will never forget John Elliott signing Pagan up for a figure that we couldn't realistically afford as one of his last acts before leaving his post.

Nothing directly against the former coach, more the players we brought in when we needed to develop our own instead of stopgap measures. Hawthorn developed their own ... and where are they on the ladder now?

Feeling Blue

[Rik E Boy]

Feeling your pain but was Pagan in charge of recruiting at your club? You could have had Jeans/Pagan/Sheedy/Hafey/Smith rolled into one and you still wouldn't have gotten anywhere. The AFL smashed your club and you are paying the price for John Elliott's arrogance and for a lack of understanding of how to work the draft system. Even before being excluded from the draft, the Blues were getting players such as McGuane instead of building up a list. Stuck in the past, they burnt their future.

I feel sorry for whoever takes over at the moment as the Fev is out for three weeks and it appears the tank is on. That's the problem, losing has become the culture of the club when previously second best was never good enough. Carlton will one day get back to the middle rungs but it will take perhaps three decades to regain that winning culture that they had during the later decades of the 20th century.

regards,

REB

[JK]

I'd been lead to believe that much of their problems (both recent and immediate) was a result of the Salary Cap penalties imposed on the Blues BW ... Didn't the Carlton board put the onus on remaining competitive immediately, whilst the Blues were bereft of early picks and finances when the faeces hit the fan? Given the aged nature of the inherited list, I wouldn't have thought that was Pagan's fault ... Nor was the loss of talent the Blues were denied via the penalty.

Im not suggesting Pagan couldn't have done things differently or with a greater end result, but I think his back was pretty much to the wall the second the Blues were penalised.

I recall at the time several respected AFL person's suggesting that whilst Blues fans and the public in general thought this would set them back a coupla years, they were underestimating the length of time this would hinder them and that it was more likely to be around the 10 year mark.

Carlton isn't my team, so I will bow to your superior judgement as you follow them so closely, I just wouldn't have thought all decisions were made by Pagan?

[Benchwarmer]

The majority of the pre-Pagan selections occurred before we were penalised by the AFL so the recruiting staff and coaches at the time need to hang their heads for that. Imagine if we had picked up Barry Hall instead of swapping the pick for one-game Blue Craig Devonport? Hall at full forward and Fev may have been a full back all along (and may have been a very good one).

Being the coach of the side, you would expect Pagan to have some input into who they picked up ... if not then I feel that would be a total derilection of duty by him - you should be getting the guys you want to make your side better.

Put it this way, would you be regarded as a foolish business manager if you let other people in the office have full control over which staff are employed in your department ... and you have minimal input over who you hired or fired?

If he hasn't said "I want you to try and get X as a long-term defender for this club" then I'd be shocked ... Mick Martyn coming over? Pagan prints on that one ... Teague? Morrell? He has to have had an influence in those.

Everyone knows that we have needed a permanent full back and centre half back since around 2000, instead of plugging holes from time to time (Silvagni was different as he was very capable of playing full back and then kicking six at full forward the next week if needed). Why haven't we got at least two dominant defenders by now? Thornton may be OK but who else can back him up? We have been deficient in defence pre-Pagan, during Pagan and now post-Pagan.

[Dutchy]

Teague/Morrell was the trade for McKernan back to the Roos, I would think with Teague they won the trade there, didnt he win a B & F?

[Rik E Boy]

SOS was the fullback of the century. A little over the top maybe but it tends to indicate that this kind of player doesn't come along all that often. Geelong still haven't replaced Gary Ablett Snr and never will. Replacing SOS was never going to be on.

What you really needed to replace were the Rattens, Sextons, Hannas, Frasers even the Bradleys: Regular league players who were consistent (ok, Braddles is a fair bit better than that). SOS was a once in a generation player so a bit tough on Pagan for him to expect him to find a fullback that can kick ten. There wouldn't be a single coach in the AFL that would have sole control over who gets on the list.

The last coach that even tried that was Grant Thomas and that's why he got the arse.

regards,

REB

[Aerie]

Feeling your pain but was Pagan in charge of recruiting at your club? You could have had Jeans/Pagan/Sheedy/Hafey/Smith rolled into one and you still wouldn't have gotten anywhere. The AFL smashed your club and you are paying the price for John Elliott's arrogance and for a lack of understanding of how to work the draft system. Even before being excluded from the draft, the Blues were getting players such as McGuane instead of building up a list. Stuck in the past, they burnt their future.

I feel sorry for whoever takes over at the moment as the Fev is out for three weeks and it appears the tank is on. That's the problem, losing has become the culture of the club when previously second best was never good enough. Carlton will one day get back to the middle rungs but it will take perhaps three decades to regain that winning culture that they had during the later decades of the 20th century.

regards,

REB

I agree with most of what you have written there. Definitely it appears a lack of understanding of modern recruiting, as well as penalties imposed, has cost big time.

I'm not sure it will take that long to install a winning culture back into the club though. A fresh coach (maybe Voss) with new ideas could work wonders and with the talented midfield and forward line they have, I can see Carlton be a premiership threat in 3 years.

They have a couple of talented rookie listed ruckman and they will need to find some key backmen and they'll be fine.

[Brad]

I remember telling Blues fans back in 97/98 they had too many older players and one day would pay the price, they hve certainly paid the price and more!

[ORDoubleBlues]

IMHO whoever was responsible for the trade period at the end of the 2003 season should be sacked and you would assume that Pagan would have had a fair say in it. That trade period you may remember was the one where Carlton acquired Scotland, Morrell, Teague, David Clarke and Cory McGrath(both current South Adelaide players), Brett Johnson and Daniel Harford as well as pick 60 in the 2003 draft. For those players they gave up Matthew Allan, Corey McKernan, Justin Murphy and Simon Beaumont as well as pick 35 and 51 in the 2003 draft.
Heath Scotland is the only player that has proved worth getting and while I don't have a problem with what they gave up, the fact that they went and got those players reeked of a 'quick fix' mentality and set the club back even further when they should have been trying to get draft picks instead as well as putting the games into their younger players.
Whether or not Pagan was responsible for giving a chance to Lawrence Angwin or not I don't know but he'll probably go down as 'Pagan's folly' regardless and his sidekick, the talented Karl Norman, also went off the rails during this period and was delisted and when you combine all this with other bad draft choices during Pagan's tenure, it's a recipe for disaster.

[Benchwarmer]

That's the draft that makes me furious, even to this day. If they had have drafted six talented youngsters plus Heath Scotland (he has been the best of the recycled players by a mile) then we'd have more than likely made positive progress.

Dutchy, the prime reason that I named the above players was that they have not put in long service at the club ... maybe three patchy years tops. Scotland has been at the club for 4 years and he is a major focal point for the team and plays week in week out. Teague should still be a reliable component in defence/half-back, but despite his B & F he is a regular at the Northern Bullants instead.

[Dutchy]

anyone else see the irony of it all?

Pagan left the Roos for an extra $200k p.a. ($700k in total) and to coach a "powerful" Melbourne club, now the Roos have got their shit together off the field and Carlton are the competitions basket case both on and off the field....and Pagan gets the sack while the Roos are sitting 2nd on the ladder with their cheap $300k p.a. coach!!!

[Punk Rooster]

Not all bad news- you picked up Nick Stevens for nothing!

I remeber reading somewhere, that whoever was running the AFL at the time (Demetriou/Jackson) walked past Dennis at a show (just as he had been appointed coach prior to the AFL's decision), & simply said "sorry Dennis"- they knew they had penalised Carlton big-time.

[Hondo]

anyone else see the irony of it all?

Pagan left the Roos for an extra $200k p.a. ($700k in total) and to coach a "powerful" Melbourne club, now the Roos have got their shit together off the field and Carlton are the competitions basket case both on and off the field....and Pagan gets the sack while the Roos are sitting 2nd on the ladder with their cheap $300k p.a. coach!!!

Shows how important it is to spend your funds wisely .... if you can find a young coach on the up who isn't demanding the $earth$, and it pans out for you, then well played I say.

It's a mystery how/why Carlton decided to spend that much money at the time but I guess Pagan had (and will always have) a great record at the Roos behind him.

[Rik E Boy]

Pagan was hired for the same reason he was fired...to provide hope.

regards,

REB

[Dirko]

That's the draft that makes me furious, even to this day. If they had have drafted six talented youngsters plus Heath Scotland (he has been the best of the recycled players by a mile)

Ricky Mott at 57, Ben Hudson at 58 mmmm...
The 2003 draft after the top 10, falls away IMO. Only half the top 20 play regular footy, and only 5 or 6 after the 20 play reguarly now....
Walker at 2, was a good choice...

At the end of the day, the club was bigger than the individual (Elliot), and the club got caught. Put up with the crap, and hope we can ride it out and come back out on top...

[Dog_ger]

Not all bad news- you picked up Nick Stevens for nothing!

I remeber reading somewhere, that whoever was running the AFL at the time (Demetriou/Jackson) walked past Dennis at a show (just as he had been appointed coach prior to the AFL's decision), & simply said "sorry Dennis"- they knew they had penalised Carlton big-time.

Agreed With everything Punk.

Penalised them out of the competition for the next 10 years unfortunately.

Nearly broke the Clubs' back at the time?

No-one will ever mess with that salary cap again, ever.......

[MatteeG]

Carlton got caught CHEATING and are paying the price now. Bet the fans wouldnt give back the 95 flag in return for some draft picks now...

Now if only the SANFL would police the salary cap in the same way....

[Mr66]

Eff 'em.
Its Carlton.
Let'em suffer.

[am Bays]

*Bump*

From todays Age:

http://realfooty.com.au/news/news/dead-man-talking/2007/08/22/1187462352993.html

This is particularly interesting:

On the subject of Stephen Kernahan, the football director and Carlton legend with whom he clashed in the last couple of years, Pagan is mute. "Stephen Kernahan? I haven't really got any comment to make … I think I should be looking forward."

Few have a bad word for "Sticks". Pagan has no word at all. In this instance, the silence says enough.

[Benchwarmer]

Actions speak louder than words ... and Pagan's actions weren't spectacular at our club.

Finals appearances = nil ... and that's for a supposed supercoach.

No matter what the list he had, he should have been able to motivate them - has gone from supercoach to above average coach.

Therefore, we could well look at North's list in the 90s and say they made him as an AFL coach. Granted he developed a number of them in the U19s at North.