Salary Cap Should the SANFL Keep it or get rid of it.

[Dog_ger]

If you break the salary cap, i think it's like having 19 men on the ground during a game..? You could have 18 Russell Eberts(4 magaries) running around..?

[am Bays]

I'm not questioning if North are over the cap, I'm questioning the hypocrisy of people claiming were aren't over the cap but others who have recruited less than we have are. Based on the ins/outs on this site some big coin has left Port too over the past year.... Bamford Brown C-Collins & Francis

I know that some have left Port too, but the figures getting thrown around the traps about Port's play for players is positively obscene.
Obviously redandblack has hear the same things, I don't think its fair that he can mention it but I can't without being accused of being hypocritical?
All alleged of course.

My accusation of hypocrisy is aimed at an earlier post on this thread not yours, as you said the figures being bandied about may intimate that some clubs could be over and I bow to your superior knowledge of the figures given your contacts.

However, having been involved at a SANFL league coaching panel level in the past I know it wouldn't be the first time a player/manager has used an ambit claim to stop a club recruiting him/their client and not all recruiting/retention of players come down to $$$. I am not that naive that a poll of players would indicate that most, not all, think $$$ are most important when deciding which club they want to play for.

In closing the reality is I have no real ******* idea of what is happening vis-s-vis player recruiting & who is over the cap at the SANFL level because I reside in a State where I cant get Balfours Custard Tarts and West End Draught. Trust me Victoria isn't the place to be!!

I just think when posters claim one club is over the cap and their club has been just as active with recruiting they need to be able to produce objective credible data to substantiate their claims

[Booney]

If you break the salary cap, i think it's like having 19 men on the ground during a game..? You could have 18 Russell Eberts(4 magaries) running around..?

Sorry mate,there is and only will ever be one Russell Ebert.

[am Bays]

If you break the salary cap, i think it's like having 19 men on the ground during a game..? You could have 18 Russell Eberts(4 magaries) running around..?

The Paradise christian revival brainwashers and Mormons wouldn't know what to do or where to look, 18 Gods on a oval at one time!!??

Talk about the 2nd coming........

Maybe there is something in the Book of Revelations shit after all.....

[drebin]

Bring back the early 70's - this story related to me by a North star from that era. At the end of the 1973 season after 3 straight GF appearances, 2 flags and an Aust. championship win, the top North players (Barrie Robran included) went to the Committee (no board back then!) and asked for their match payments to go from $20 to $25 a game and were knocked back on the grounds that (a) you play for the love of the jumper and (b) you will send the club broke.

Needless to say over the next year or 2 North lost a lot of top line players and then struggled in the next decade trying to re-build. So putting it in mathematical terms, 30 top line players earning an average of $20 bucks a game (not all the top 30 were on even $20 bucks!!!) over 20 rounds = $12,000.00 in total. You can imagine what the bottom ranked reserves players were getting paid! Who says players play for $$$ these days.

[topsywaldron]

I suppose the other thing that clubs would be nervous about is the potential to be caught defrauding the ATO. If you're paying players under the table through a club owned business this would have to be money that hasn't been declared in your tax return and so would have avoided tax. So not only could you be stung by the might of the SANFL but also the Australian Tax Department might be after you as well.

There's an obvious gag here that I'm going to leave right alone.

[doggies4eva]

I suppose the other thing that clubs would be nervous about is the potential to be caught defrauding the ATO. If you're paying players under the table through a club owned business this would have to be money that hasn't been declared in your tax return and so would have avoided tax. So not only could you be stung by the might of the SANFL but also the Australian Tax Department might be after you as well.

There's an obvious gag here that I'm going to leave right alone.

I'm not sure but I didn't think that the SANFL could look at a players tax return. But even if they can the problem is how do they know that the pay was reasonable for the services delivered? I knew a club (not SANFL) which used to fill in false timesheets for players. There is always the possibility of getting a friendly sponsor or supporter to supply a bogus job and do all the paperwork so there is no issue with the ATO.

[drebin]

The tax office would only be interested in a business as a whole re returns and tax payed (PAYG, GST and FBT etc payments) on income received. They have looked at a number of Footballers over the years and some have been caught having to explain "wealth" not declared in their tax returns or have uncovered under the table payments after someone has squeeled - normally jilted ex-wives or defacto's. I know that this info would not be passed onto the AFL/SANFL due to privacy reasons unless there were allegations of tax evasion colusion on behalf of the player(s) along with Managers, Club CEO's, the Clubs as a whole or even the League. John Condon would have no authority to search/demand etc any documents from any club or player as he is a SANFL official - not a Legislative Investigator. So the clubs can produce to him any set of books/records etc they wish - so how do you police it?

Make the Salary Cap a statute act and give the League taxation investigational powers! Shit the Govt. has enough problems trying to delve into the assets and incomes of organsied crime subjects - So what chance the SANFL Salary Cap being properly investigated/policed!!!

[doggies4eva]

Thats exactly right Drebin. The SANFL has no power and the ATO both can't diclose nor would be interested. If it got involved in internal club matters where would it stop?

These matters are domestic competition matters and as it is not illegal to cheat the cap the ATO would have no interest if all the income was declared. Thats one of the main reasons that salary caps don't work - have large incentive for clubs and individuals to collude, no real legal powers of sporting administrations and no external legal framework. What have you got? A sham.

[topsywaldron]

An example. A club takes an amount of money over the bar but declares and pays tax on only four fifths of that amount and pays their "employees/players " the rest in cash. The ATO would probably be pretty interested both ways, the club are minimising their tax and so is the player. If this didn't happen in the SANFL it'd probably be the only small business in the state that didn't pay black money. When you hear of players being given up to $5000 cash to re-sign you have to wonder.

And if John Condon has no authority to search/demand etc any documents from any club or player because he is a SANFL official, as Drebin says, then I'd wonder why we bother having a salary cap. Although I'm still not sure I believe Drebin.

But just this time mind you. Every other time he's on the money.

[Wedgie]

I know where you're coming from topsy, I think a few were off track thinking you were talking about the ATO disclosing income details to the SANFL.

In regard to "social arms" of clubs paying their players I don't think there'll be any issue, clubs will safely pay their players for jobs such as bar tending and declare the full details to the ATO, I doubt if anything untoward would happen there as 1) the clubs know what they tell the ATO won't get back to the SANFL due to privacy laws and 2) they don't want to get in the shit with the ATO obviously.

I think the only time the ATO might be involved is if things such as 2 different contracts being signed, one of which is officia and one of which is unofficial like has been alleged on this forum that there may be an issue.

[JK]

And then I guess as with any business there are still valued perks that can be included, but are non-taxable at the indiciduals end .. Last I heard a company car was valued at around $15k per year or so, fuel allowance etc ...

[doggies4eva]

I know where you're coming from topsy, I think a few were off track thinking you were talking about the ATO disclosing income details to the SANFL.

In regard to "social arms" of clubs paying their players I don't think there'll be any issue, clubs will safely pay their players for jobs such as bar tending and declare the full details to the ATO, I doubt if anything untoward would happen there as 1) the clubs know what they tell the ATO won't get back to the SANFL due to privacy laws and 2) they don't want to get in the shit with the ATO obviously.

I think the only time the ATO might be involved is if things such as 2 different contracts being signed, one of which is officia and one of which is unofficial like has been alleged on this forum that there may be an issue.

Wedgie, the only thing that the ATO does is administer the Tax Act. That means that they try and ensure that everyone declares all income that they earn. So if a player actually gets $x from all sources and declares $x thats all the ATO cares about - cause then they collect all the tax due them. They have no interest or jurisdiction if there are sham contracts for salary cap purposes if all income actually received is declared.

[JK]

Surely also the tax-exempt claimables would also come under scrutiny throughout the auditing process yeah?

[Wedgie]

Wedgie, the only thing that the ATO does is administer the Tax Act. That means that they try and ensure that everyone declares all income that they earn. So if a player actually gets $x from all sources and declares $x thats all the ATO cares about - cause then they collect all the tax due them. They have no interest or jurisdiction if there are sham contracts for salary cap purposes if all income actually received is declared.

Most of your post actually agrees with me, my point was only if Contract A which is dodgy and declared to the SANFL is also the contract that is declared to the ATO while Contract B with more on it doesn't go anywhere.

[stan]

So what, the lingo here is that the club that breaks the cap the most is the bad guy?
Gotcha lets stick with that.

[Wedgie]

So what, the lingo here is that the club that breaks the cap the most is the bad guy?
Gotcha lets stick with that.

Yeah we shoud have a sliding scale.
Allegedly Club A and Club B are completely "evil".
Club's C and D can be "naughty".
And noone cares about the rest.

[drebin]

An example. A club takes an amount of money over the bar but declares and pays tax on only four fifths of that amount and pays their "employees/players " the rest in cash. The ATO would probably be pretty interested both ways, the club are minimising their tax and so is the player. If this didn't happen in the SANFL it'd probably be the only small business in the state that didn't pay black money. When you hear of players being given up to $5000 cash to re-sign you have to wonder.

And if John Condon has no authority to search/demand etc any documents from any club or player because he is a SANFL official, as Drebin says, then I'd wonder why we bother having a salary cap. Although I'm still not sure I believe Drebin.

But just this time mind you. Every other time he's on the money.

Go find me some legislation that give the SANFL Salary Cap Officer the power to demand, search and seize records from Clubs. The only obligation on the clubs is to provide him the relevant records - if they don't he has no power to mount "dawn" raids and break into and seize documents - that is the facts - he is not a legislative investigator with police powers or court authorities. Trust me I do know what I am talking about when it comes to legal matters like this.

[doggies4eva]

An example. A club takes an amount of money over the bar but declares and pays tax on only four fifths of that amount and pays their "employees/players " the rest in cash. The ATO would probably be pretty interested both ways, the club are minimising their tax and so is the player. If this didn't happen in the SANFL it'd probably be the only small business in the state that didn't pay black money. When you hear of players being given up to $5000 cash to re-sign you have to wonder.

And if John Condon has no authority to search/demand etc any documents from any club or player because he is a SANFL official, as Drebin says, then I'd wonder why we bother having a salary cap. Although I'm still not sure I believe Drebin.

But just this time mind you. Every other time he's on the money.

Go find me some legislation that give the SANFL Salary Cap Officer the power to demand, search and seize records from Clubs. The only obligation on the clubs is to provide him the relevant records - if they don't he has no power to mount "dawn" raids and break into and seize documents - that is the facts - he is not a legislative investigator with police powers or court authorities. Trust me I do know what I am talking about when it comes to legal matters like this.

My understanding of how this works is the clubs agree within the SANFL rules that the SANFL will have the power to authorise representatives to inspect books and other records. If a club refuses they are in breach of the SANFL rules and subject to penalty. So the Salary Cap Officer requests relevant information from the club and this is provided. You are quite right - there is no legislative power. The SANFL's reps may also choose to interview players if it has suspicions but this is rarely done without some prior evidence or information.

[drebin]

Spot on doggies4ever.