Immigration as a non-racial issue

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Immigration as a non-racial issue

Postby Psyber » Thu Oct 15, 2009 7:55 pm

The thread that was locked on "Asylum Seekers" was getting out of hand, but it did contain some elements worthy of rational discussion.
The White Australia Policy, was touched on obliquely a couple of times, and looking back we have all been trained to see its origin as primarily racist in motivation.
In fact, its primary designer appeared to be more concerned about economic competition and making life hard for Australian workers, and would probably have said the same thing regardless of side issues like skin colour. However, the two issues are hard to keep separate because of our geography, and because of our early treatment of the previous occupants of this country.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Australia_Policy
The chief architect of the policy, Alfred Deakin, believed that the Japanese and Chinese[1] might be a threat to the newly formed federation and it was this belief that led to legislation to ensure they would be kept out: "It is not the bad qualities, but the good qualities of these alien races that make them so dangerous to us. It is their inexhaustible energy, their power of applying themselves to new tasks, their endurance and low standard of living that make them such competitors."

The inauguration of White Australia as government policy is generally taken to be the passage of the Immigration Restriction Act in 1901, one of the first Acts of the new national parliament upon federation. The bill had support from the labour movement. The policy was dismantled in stages by successive Liberal governments after the conclusion of World War II, with the encouragement of first non-British and later non-white immigration. From 1973 on, the White Australia policy was for all practical purposes defunct, and in 1975 the Australian government passed the Racial Discrimination Act, which made racially-based selection criteria illegal.

Restrictions on immigration had preceded federation, beginning with anti-Chinese legislation enacted by individual Australian colonies during the Australian goldrushes of the 1850s.

It was not until the Fraser Liberal government's review of immigration law in 1978 that all selection of prospective migrants based on country of origin was entirely removed from official policy. Currently, a large number of Australia's immigrants are from countries such as China and India, though the United Kingdom and New Zealand respectively remain the two largest single sources of immigrants.

My concern about immigration policy in Australia is about the fact that despite being a large island or a small continent, it's size is deceptive, and the debate about race and immigration obscures the reality that its lack of water and its poor soils make its population carrying capacity much less than one would expect from just looking at a map. Unfortunately, those realities are not plain to the asylum seekers, or to the government officials of other countries who have either never been here or have not seen anything of the country outside the major coastal cities, and therefore see this as an almost empty land that could easily take these people in.

Even our governments seem to lose sight of these realities, as I indicated in my reference to Peter Costello's pushing for population growth when he was national treasurer.
I have often though that if the national capital were somewhere other than in the most lush part of this dry continent our politicians may gain a better perspective of the situation.

Today, everyone is an immigrant. JAS touched on this in her comments.
Almost no group living anywhere, now, can claim to be original to the land they now occupy.
The world is overpopulated, and global warming, whether anthropogenic or part of long term cycles, is changing weather patterns making some occupied lands less tenable in supporting the existing population.
Unfortunately, this country, already marginally untenable for our population is looking like becoming less tenable still, but when people just look at a map and our population figures, they simply don't see that.
There are more problems ahead...

PS: I see the other thread has since been unlocked.
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Re: Immigration as a non-racial issue

Postby auto » Thu Oct 15, 2009 8:36 pm

Remember reading an article prob about 5 years ago that said the "ideal" population (meaning land area, resources and other stuff i cant recall) was 125 million. It went on to say there was enough fresh water in the north of australia to cope with that population.
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Re: Immigration as a non-racial issue

Postby dedja » Fri Oct 16, 2009 2:20 am

Psyber, doesn't matter how the White Australia Policy was intended, it was clearly racist.

Australia has and will always embrace immigration and that's the way it should be. As a wealthy nation we quite rightly should be able to accomodate a small number (in relative terms) of immigrants, whether they be those who enter the country legally or those that attempt to flee persecution or hardship.

We have enough resources to accomodate population growth, it's just that we don't utilise them as well as we should.

Also, if we don't accept immigrants then that won't achieve anything in the climate change debate ... these people need to live somewhere on the planet and isn't climate change a global issue?
Dunno, I’m just an idiot.

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Re: Immigration as a non-racial issue

Postby Farmy » Fri Oct 16, 2009 3:11 am

I think the real issue is taking out the people smugglers, they aren't even human, they are dirt to be tread upon. Exploitative scum.

I wonder how many Asylum Seekers end up being kidnapped and enslaved, I'm sure it happens, the ones that make it near Australian waters are the lucky ones.

That is step one in solving this problem, erase the vultures from Existence. Step two increase immigration intake moderately, see how that goes for a while.
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Re: Immigration as a non-racial issue

Postby Psyber » Fri Oct 16, 2009 9:25 am

automaticwicky wrote:Remember reading an article prob about 5 years ago that said the "ideal" population (meaning land area, resources and other stuff i cant recall) was 125 million. It went on to say there was enough fresh water in the north of Australia to cope with that population.
I haven't seen that, but I would wonder if that article took into account the issues of capture, storage, and distribution, and whether the costs of the process would be remotely affordable.
There is also the issue of destroying the wilderness and the unpopularity thereof.

dedja wrote:Psyber, doesn't matter how the White Australia Policy was intended, it was clearly racist.
It certainly was turned into a racist issue, partly by outsiders who were not familiar with the concerns at the time of its formulation.
Another factor was the action of groups who wanted to use accusations of institutionalised racism to advantage themselves economically and politically.
The Labor Party also played it up as it distanced itself from its original support for the bill in the light of the advantage of playing to those groups.
However, I agree race was always a component even if our forebears who formulated it were not aware of it as a motivating factor themselves.
I doubt that the Australian people of the time would have been as open to a multicultural/multiracial society as we are on average in this more enlightened time.
Perhaps, back then, they were not aware that they should be...

Farmy, I agree that those who exploit others are scum, and should be dealt with firmly, but with more humanity than they themselves display..
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Re: Immigration as a non-racial issue

Postby ORDoubleBlues » Sat Oct 17, 2009 4:36 am

Australia can only handle about 25 million Max at the moment and my opinion is that I don't care if there is a boat of Irish farmers heading towards Australia, If they haven't gone through the proper chanels, forget it.
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Re: Immigration as a non-racial issue

Postby Wedgie » Sat Oct 17, 2009 5:12 am

ORDoubleBlues wrote:Australia can only handle about 25 million Max at the moment and my opinion is that I don't care if there is a boat of Irish farmers heading towards Australia, If they haven't gone through the proper chanels, forget it.

Does that mean we can kick out the poms and anyone descended from them that came across in the 18th and 19th century as none of them went through the proper channels?
My goodness, could you imagine the uproar if another country was offloading their criminals and not just their refugees to us in this day and age? :shock:
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Re: Immigration as a non-racial issue

Postby Psyber » Sat Oct 17, 2009 8:15 am

Wedgie wrote:
ORDoubleBlues wrote:Australia can only handle about 25 million Max at the moment and my opinion is that I don't care if there is a boat of Irish farmers heading towards Australia, If they haven't gone through the proper chanels, forget it.
Does that mean we can kick out the poms and anyone descended from them that came across in the 18th and 19th century as none of them went through the proper channels?
My goodness, could you imagine the uproar if another country was offloading their criminals and not just their refugees to us in this day and age? :shock:
Or the "aboriginals" who arrived here about 60,000 years ago and displaced those who were here before them, who may themselves not have been original either?
I'm not having a go at aboriginals here, Wedgie, just at the idea that any group in the world are original to the land they are now on...

I agree that since the peoples of the earth have been roaming around and resettling for a very long time, the modern systematised restriction of immigration seems a bit hypocritical.
However, presumably, many of the roaming tribes, and potential settlers, of so long ago also met resistance from those already in place, and at times violence and conquest was the source of resolution.
That is not a new phenomenon either - just one we are trying to prevent continuing now, although it obviously still has its supporters.
It is going to become a bigger issue if we don't manage to curb world population growth and learn to live without the expanding economy.
[Unless, of course, we do get off planet and find room to continue expanding, as Jerry Pournelle has proposed..]
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Re: Immigration as a non-racial issue

Postby dedja » Sat Oct 17, 2009 9:04 am

ORDoubleBlues wrote:Australia can only handle about 25 million Max at the moment and my opinion is that I don't care if there is a boat of Irish farmers heading towards Australia, If they haven't gone through the proper chanels, forget it.


Just curious, how do you figure that number?
Dunno, I’m just an idiot.

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Re: Immigration as a non-racial issue

Postby redandblack » Sat Oct 17, 2009 9:14 am

Some interesting articles in the Advertiser today, with some interesting figures.

Perhaps we could start a thread on non-boat people illegal immigrants? They far outnumber boat people, are ''queue-jumpers'' and are certainly wealthier.
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Re: Immigration as a non-racial issue

Postby Psyber » Sat Oct 17, 2009 2:36 pm

redandblack wrote:Some interesting articles in the Advertiser today, with some interesting figures.
Perhaps we could start a thread on non-boat people illegal immigrants? They far outnumber boat people, are ''queue-jumpers'' and are certainly wealthier.
It is a valid topic - "queue jumpers" are evading, or simply not waiting for, a proper assessment of their claims, whatever their method.
I couldn't find the "interesting figures" on the net version Adelaide Now. Are they only in the print version or hidden in a section I didn't find on line?
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Re: Immigration as a non-racial issue

Postby FlyingHigh » Sat Oct 17, 2009 2:49 pm

Psyber wrote:
automaticwicky wrote:Remember reading an article prob about 5 years ago that said the "ideal" population (meaning land area, resources and other stuff i cant recall) was 125 million. It went on to say there was enough fresh water in the north of Australia to cope with that population.
I haven't seen that, but I would wonder if that article took into account the issues of capture, storage, and distribution, and whether the costs of the process would be remotely affordable.
There is also the issue of destroying the wilderness and the unpopularity thereof.

AW - I believe yout that Australia potentially has the resources to home 125 million, but at what expense to the environment, other species etc. Look at the number of endangered species in Africa, China, South America due to too many people.
Some scientists believe the ideal population for Australia to live harmoniously and sustainably within our environment is around 6 million.
Wacthed a TV show on SBS a couple years ago where some scientists believe Hurricane Katrina that devasted New Orleans would have been naturally reduced in intensity and not hit New Orleans with such force if it had not been for man-made changes to the nearby environment.
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Re: Immigration as a non-racial issue

Postby Dog_ger » Sat Oct 17, 2009 5:13 pm

Whats wrong with being racist..?

Please explain.
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Re: Immigration as a non-racial issue

Postby Psyber » Sat Oct 17, 2009 5:15 pm

FlyingHigh wrote:
Psyber wrote:
automaticwicky wrote:Remember reading an article prob about 5 years ago that said the "ideal" population (meaning land area, resources and other stuff i cant recall) was 125 million. It went on to say there was enough fresh water in the north of Australia to cope with that population.
I haven't seen that, but I would wonder if that article took into account the issues of capture, storage, and distribution, and whether the costs of the process would be remotely affordable.
There is also the issue of destroying the wilderness and the unpopularity thereof.
AW - I believe yout that Australia potentially has the resources to home 125 million, but at what expense to the environment, other species etc. Look at the number of endangered species in Africa, China, South America due to too many people.
Some scientists believe the ideal population for Australia to live harmoniously and sustainably within our environment is around 6 million.
Wacthed a TV show on SBS a couple years ago where some scientists believe Hurricane Katrina that devasted New Orleans would have been naturally reduced in intensity and not hit New Orleans with such force if it had not been for man-made changes to the nearby environment.
I hadn't seen that one either.
I've been relying on my memory of books on the subject I read some years ago - late 1970s and early 1980s - when there was some discussion of a potential population explosion greater than actually has occurred.
There had also been speculation about a building minor Ice Age in contrast with our concern now about warming.
That was of course before the imminent doom of Y2K...
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Re: Immigration as a non-racial issue

Postby Simon_A » Sat Oct 17, 2009 7:17 pm

ORDoubleBlues wrote:And my opinion is that I don't care if there is a boat of Irish farmers heading towards Australia, If they haven't gone through the proper chanels, forget it.


Immigration, not invasion. Thats my belief.

Fu<k the people who just rock up and whine for a place, we have a good immigration system in place, us it.
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Re: Immigration as a non-racial issue

Postby Sojourner » Sat Oct 17, 2009 10:43 pm

If we had nuclear power we would not have to many problems de-salinating enough water to make vast stretches of the outback able to be habitable, much like what is happening with the Negev desert in Israel.
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Re: Immigration as a non-racial issue

Postby Squawk » Sat Oct 17, 2009 10:47 pm

redandblack wrote:Some interesting articles in the Advertiser today, with some interesting figures.

Perhaps we could start a thread on non-boat people illegal immigrants? They far outnumber boat people, are ''queue-jumpers'' and are certainly wealthier.


Some other figures FYI

So far this year roughly 1500 people have taken a boat as their means of travel as assylum seekers.
Each year, about 4,000 take a plane to an airport and claim to be assylum seekers.
At any one time, there are 48,500 Visa overstayers in Australia - a large proportion of which are British.

At $15,000 per head for a place on a leaky boat, what will we do when they channel their money in other ways - eg charter/buy a plane and fly in to a mainland Australian airport? It's not easy to send out a RAAF plane and turn them around mid-air, in the same way a boat can intercept them at sea.
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Re: Immigration as a non-racial issue

Postby redandblack » Sat Oct 17, 2009 11:50 pm

Interesting numbers.

The obvious thing then is to toughen up on the visa over-stayers, instead of worrying about the minimal possibility of ''boat people'' hiring a jet ;)
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Re: Immigration as a non-racial issue

Postby redandblack » Sun Oct 18, 2009 7:36 am

Dog_ger wrote:Whats wrong with being racist..?

Please explain.


That says everything we need to know about you.
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Re: Immigration as a non-racial issue

Postby Psyber » Sun Oct 18, 2009 8:11 am

redandblack wrote:
Dog_ger wrote:Whats wrong with being racist..?
Please explain.
That says everything we need to know about you.
Specism may be worse..
I've met some very nice other species. 8)
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