Where do you expect the Crows to finish in 09?

[jointman]

bottom

[hearts on fire]

bottom

hope so.

[JK]

C'mon lads, trolling not allowed

[NFC]

Yeah good one guys. In that case give us our #1 pick!

[mypaddock]

Id say around 9th or 10th. Craigs boring game plan will still win us a few games, but if we are relying on Goodwin and Edwards to be our main midfielders I can't see us playing finals- these two are on their last legs. And the forward line is a shambles- Hentschel was never anything special when he was 100% b4 his knee injury and they are now talking him up as our No.1 forward
The second group of midfielders eg Vince, Van Berlo etc dont instill much confidence in terms of being able to win us games.

[JK]

Hentschel was never anything special when he was 100% b4 his knee injury

Probably the only part I disagree with mate .. Hentschel was a very capable and key forward when he went down, and he still hadn't reached his peak (IMHO of course).

I don't think we'll ever know how good he could have been, because it's hard to imagine he has the same scope for improvement now after such a devastating injury.

Still, here's hoping the lad can get back to being a quality forward of sorts, Lord knows he's been through hell and back (in career terms).

[mypaddock]

Hentschel was never anything special when he was 100% b4 his knee injury

Probably the only part I disagree with mate .. Hentschel was a very capable and key forward when he went down, and he still hadn't reached his peak (IMHO of course).

I don't think we'll ever know how good he could have been, because it's hard to imagine he has the same scope for improvement now after such a devastating injury.

Still, here's hoping the lad can get back to being a quality forward of sorts, Lord knows he's been through hell and back (in career terms).

How old is he now?

[JK]

Hentschel was never anything special when he was 100% b4 his knee injury

Probably the only part I disagree with mate .. Hentschel was a very capable and key forward when he went down, and he still hadn't reached his peak (IMHO of course).

I don't think we'll ever know how good he could have been, because it's hard to imagine he has the same scope for improvement now after such a devastating injury.

Still, here's hoping the lad can get back to being a quality forward of sorts, Lord knows he's been through hell and back (in career terms).

How old is he now?

Dunno mate, I'd guess 26 or 27

[Pup]

He is 26

Good guess CP.

[JK]

Cheers mate, still plenty of years in front of him, but the body generally won't ever be the same (sidenote: I guess that's where you have to take the hat off to David Schwarze, a brilliant young footballer who several knee reco's later was still able to change his style and succeed, without the athletic qualities that were such a big part of his game).

[FD88]

Crow-mo (on Bigfooty) and I rarely agree on things, but I am thinking along a similar line to him in terms of what we need to know about this Adelaide list come the end of our 2009 campaign. We need to know which of our midfielders can hit that elite bracket, and which can't.

Most would agree Porplyzia as a midfielder is top line with his clean hands and immaculate skills, so fitness and injury permitting there's one you could lock in. Then there's Bernie Vince who I've been a big wrap for for sometime. What he produced in the first showdown last year was special to watch, because it was exactly the sort of footy I had envisaged him playing since we first picked him up. Unlike Porplyzia he hasn't consistently starred, but you can mark him down as one we will DEFINITELY be able to classify by the end of 2009.

Van Berlo - doubt he'll be an elite midfielder at any stage of his career. A decent player with good character sure, perhaps a worthy captain, but not destined for superstardom. I'm sure a few of you will disagree but nothing about him screams class to me.

Knights - For a while I thought the elite level was within reach but last year his disposal went backwards again and it seems to have carried into the 09 pre season. A ball magnet with pace who moves beautifully through traffic but without a damaging kick we can't pin our hopes on him.

Mackay - Shows a lot of potential, the running goal against Collingwood in the EF is a fine example of his ability to not only read the play but execute. This year he will no doubt be given a larger role in the midfield which will mean more time on ground. I hope we get 20+ games into him this year.

Douglas - Enough time in the forward pocket, this kid was recruited as a midfielder and was very highly thought of by all involved with him. He had a couple of real standout games in the SANFL but hasn't been able to break into our rotations. Dougie is almost the poster boy for the point I'm trying to make here; we need to know what he can do!

The others - Otten, Dangerfield, Cook, Petrenko. The former two we've seen so little of at AFL level you could almost put them in the "yet to debut" category. I sincerely hope Craigy gives these kids ample opportunity to show their wares because they've all got bucketloads of talent. Petrenko more of a rebounding defender though.

Lets get one thing straight: we are not good enough to win the flag this year, and from the language Craigy's been using this pre season he knows it. To me, this sort of stage isn't one at which you play a serviceable "honest" player in the middle (or anywhere really) because of the strong body, in an effort to maybe snatch an extra win or two. What I'm saying is if someone like Doughty isn't playing great football I do not want to see him persisted with, not this year. The club can't keep going with this approach and hope to take big steps forward - time flies, these kids don't stay kids. Heck Porps is already 24, Thompson about to turn 26. The time to act is NOW, and thankfully I think the club has got that message.

[NFC]

Lets get one thing straight: we are not good enough to win the flag this year, and from the language Craigy's been using this pre season he knows it. To me, this sort of stage isn't one at which you play a serviceable "honest" player because of the strong body, in an effort to maybe snatch an extra win or two. What I'm saying is if someone like Doughty isn't playing great football I do not want to see him persisted with, not this year. The club can't keep going with this approach and hope to take big steps forward - time flies, these kids don't stay kids. Heck Porps is already 24, Thompson about to turn 26. The time to act is NOW, and thankfully I think the club has got that message.

Agree mate, well said. As I've said time and time again, he needs to look at the bigger picture. Stop playing guys like Shirley and Doughty if their form doesn’t warrant it; instead give the youngsters an opportunity. We show a disturbing lack of faith in the youngsters and it’s about time that changed. We take so long to debut them, take so long to trust them with any reasonable amount of game time, and as a result we don’t see consistency from them for much longer than we ought to.

Last year we actually made some brave decisions by playing and generally sticking with Tippett and Mackay. Sure both struggled at times but they will be so much better off for the year at the highest level. We need to do the same with guys like Walker, Otten and Petrenko this year as they are the future. I’m not suggesting we play guys before they’re ready but if they’ve shown solid SANFL form and there are vacancies in the team, get them in there! One major issue I have is that we keep guys far too long in the SANFL. VB only played about 10 SANFL games, all in his first year, and hasn’t played for South Adelaide since. We showed some faith and he’s repaid it. We should do the same with Petrenko and possibly Otten and Cook this year. If they’re fit and performing for their local side, get them in.

As for your comments about which of our midfielders can be elite, I agree with Porplyzia and Vince. Was never a huge fan of Vince (as you know!) but you can certainly see something pretty special brewing. This year will be about solidifying his place in the midfield and becoming more consistent. I think it’s only a matter of time before Mackay becomes elite. His skills, poise and decision making means he’ll enter that category.

Douglas is a fringe player and will never reach elite status. I and other may overrate VB but you underrate him. Has increased his possession average each year and as long as he refines his skills and becomes more damaging on the scoreboard, he’s got the capabilities of reaching elite status. Knights is a turnover machine but man he’s got a lot going for him. Improved his pace, he’s a top notch mark for a midfielder, tackling 2nd best at the club and he gets 25 touches each week. Fix up the kicking even more and convert more of his scoring chances and he’s elite.

Time will tell re Petrenko and Cook but I like their chances. Petrenko maybe not a pure midfielder but extremely versatile so can play back/mid/forward pocket. I see Otten in the Douglas mould, obviously very different players but similar upside IMO. I might start a thread about Otto on BF because I actually see his future as primarily a forward.

One more dark horse (in time), James Moss.

[FD88]

I like the optimism but as crow-mo says, just -how- good are they going to be? We toy with the word elite but how many of them will be Judd or Ablett-type elite? Because we -need- to have one or two (or three!) like that - seeing Ablett tear us apart on Saturday hammered that home for me.

[mypaddock]

I honestly doubt any of these players e.g knigts VB, Vince etc will ever reach the same class as Mcleod, Roo, Edwards, Goodwin etc.
Unfortunately i think its going to be a very tough 4-5 yrs ahead for the club and the best thing they can do is just play all the youth. Honestly don't see the point in persisting with the older guys- yes they've been great servants of the club, but they can only play bit parts at this stage of their careers.
Blood the youth and hope that some of them can step up to the plate!

[JK]

Hard to disagree with any of the last 3 post, fair calls lads.

Most clubs have a star attraction or franchise-type player, which we haven't had since the halcyon days of the fab 4 ... Would be nice to think that one of the younger lads on the list could blossom to that level, but Im not sure it will happen.

[Hondo]

Crow-mo over-states how many "elite" players we actually need v how many "very good" players. He also over-states the time frame for finding out who's where. Fact is, you could only play guys aged 22 or less all year and you still won't know for sure how they'll go in 2010 and 2011.

You never need as many "elites" as you think you do. 3-4 is often enough - look at Crows 97-98, Hawks last year. Currently I'd say we have 1-2 so are definitely short a couple. I'd hope the last 2 drafts give us 2 "elites" and 4-5 "very goods".

So, on to Doughty and Shirley:

IMO there's enough room in the side (esp when injuries start) to give game time to the youngsters AND play Doughty and Shirley (if their form holds up). Those 2 blokes keep copping it in the neck by fans who feel they are holding back a young bloke or 2. But, on the other hand, why should some 20 year old hold up a member of our leadership group and one of our best players from last year (Doughty)? And the fact is, we don't have a quality tagger to match Shirley so unless you want to have a star midfielder run over us every game you've got to play him.

Easy to say now we don't mind getting flogged but another thing when it starts happening.

[JK]

Who would you list as the Crows 1-2 elites Hondo? And by that do you mean AFL elite or Crows elite?

[Pup]

Who would you list as the Crows 1-2 elites Hondo? And by that do you mean AFL elite or Crows elite?

If we are talking about AFL elite then i would have to say zero at the moment, especially with the likes of Mcleod, Goodwin and Edwards on the "Way Out" and even with those three probably only McLeod fits in that category at top form.

[Hondo]

Who would you list as the Crows 1-2 elites Hondo? And by that do you mean AFL elite or Crows elite?

I knew someone would ask! Damn

McLeod = 1
Then scrape the "-2" out of Bock, Porplyzia, Goodwin, Burton - Goodwin was and the other 2 are close and Birdman is out injured

Even Thompson came 5th in the Brownlow in 2007 and we had about 7 players in the All-Stars game last year.

I think this sums up why we finished 8th the last 2 years. 1-2 (arguably) elite players and then a bunch of good to very good players. Enough to get us into the finals but not enough to take us very far.

My hopes for the coming years to find another couple of stars are Dangerfield, Walker, Tippett, Davis, Petrenko, Mackay, Vince. Everyone's got their own view on these lads but we'll see. I think we can assume that not all of them will get to elite level.

[Browny25]

12th