Is the Australian Government Sorry Now?

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Re: Is the Australian Government Sorry Now?

Postby JK » Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:19 am

Andy #24 wrote:
SJABC wrote:[ have no problems with compensation, as long as what Pysber says also, that the right people get it. By the right manner I hope whoever gets the money uses is for the betterment of themselves and the communities from where they come from. What I wouldn't like to see as I have said is all the vultures going for a bite of the cherry too. That is the part that will hurt this country if we pay out millions/billions and it doesn't get to the people that deserve it.

Unfortunately as CP also says there is a element where the money could be abused. Is that just in todays indigenous society. No. It is everywhere as CP suggests.


Regarding spending money in the right manner, no-one (unless there is some mental problem) who gets compensated gets told how to use their money. They can walk out of court into the casino and put it on red if they want to. Why should Aborigines be any different?


Fair call Andy thats true, and indigenous people should have no lesser right than anyone else ... Tough place for the government though, because, if any recipient uses their allotted funds to further their own destruction, would they not be likely to have to wear that too - kind of damned if they do, damned if they don't?
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Re: Is the Australian Government Sorry Now?

Postby Andy #24 » Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:26 am

I see your point and practically it may have a lot of merit, but I think that all people deserve autonomy. The idea that Aborigines shouldn't be autonomous and that they're better off being looked after by us is what kicked off the stolen generation in the first place.
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Re: Is the Australian Government Sorry Now?

Postby Dirko » Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:39 am

Andy #24 wrote:I see your point and practically it may have a lot of merit, but I think that all people deserve autonomy. The idea that Aborigines shouldn't be autonomous and that they're better off being looked after by us is what kicked off the stolen generation in the first place.


Are you saying that the benefits that some Indigenous people receive which is above and beyond what others get should be reduced to match the normal benefits that government offer to non Indigenous Australians?

If as you say, they are more than entitled to walk out with their money and put it on red, should they or anyone for that fact continue to receive benefits after the money has been wasted?
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Re: Is the Australian Government Sorry Now?

Postby JK » Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:03 pm

Andy #24 wrote:I see your point and practically it may have a lot of merit, but I think that all people deserve autonomy. The idea that Aborigines shouldn't be autonomous and that they're better off being looked after by us is what kicked off the stolen generation in the first place.


Yep good point again, I think most people agree there should be some form of recompense which in itself is a sensitive issue for most, but then finding the most beneficial manner in which to do it is yet another delicate matter.
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Re: Is the Australian Government Sorry Now?

Postby Psyber » Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:43 pm

redandblack wrote:Psyber, I have to say my eyes glazed over reading your bit about gene percentages.

I just think it was wrong to take children away from their parents and family, however misguidedly well-meaning it was thought at the time.

We should acknowledge that and say sorry.

I have no problem about that except for those who want it carefully phrased so it constitutes an admission of culpability they can make mega-bucks from - and I don't mean the actual sufferers!

It needs to be carefully phrased to avoid that, but the indigenous community seems to have been convinced that option is not acceptable by their legal advisors.... so where do we go from there?
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Re: Is the Australian Government Sorry Now?

Postby Andy #24 » Thu Dec 20, 2007 1:58 pm

smac wrote:I think it's been fairly clearly pointed out already Andy that the "used correctly" comment refers to not giving a large chunk to 'good meaning' lawyers and other leaches to the process - you are correct that how anyone spends their own money is up to them.


I thought the comment "to the right people" meant not giving it to lawyers. SJABC said that by the right manner he was refering to how the money would be used by the people who got it.
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Re: Is the Australian Government Sorry Now?

Postby RustyCage » Thu Dec 20, 2007 3:16 pm

Here are some Indigenous issues that are significantly more important than some ultimately insignificant apology.

Demographic Statistics
* Indigenous Australians make up approximately 2.4% of the population of Australia, or an estimated 492,700 in 2005
* 11% of Indigenous Australians are Torres Strait Islanders. 14% of Torres Strait Islanders live in the Torres Strait area (the group of islands in the Torres Strait separating Indonesia and Australia) while 45% live in other parts of Queensland and 18% in New South Wales
* In 2001 the median age of Indigenous Australians was 21 years, compared with 36 years for the non-Indigenous population.
* Approximately 30% of Indigenous Australians live in major cities, 43% in regional areas and 26% in remote areas. This contrasts with the non-Indigenous population, only 2% of whom live in remote areas.
* Over half of Indigenous Australians live in NSW and Queensland, but the greatest proportion of Indigenous inhabitants is in the Northern Territory, where nearly 29% of the population is Indigenous.

Health indicators
* After adjusting for age, Indigenous Australians show a higher rate of most types of health conditions than non-Indigenous people. The difference is especially pronounced for arthritis, asthma, diabetes and endocrine/metabolic/nutritional disorders.
* Current life expectancy for Indigenous Australians is estimated at 59 years for males and 65 years for females; this is substantially lower than the total population levels of 77 years for males and 82 years for females.
* One factor influencing Indigenous people's access to health services is distance. Indigenous Australians are more likely to live at a greater distance from health services. This is further compounded by lack of access to transport, and by the relative economic disadvantage of Indigenous Australians which impacts their access to services which are not covered by Medicare, such as dentistry and physiotherapy.
* Cultural factors are also likely to form a barrier to access to health services. Indigenous Australians are more likely to access health services if Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander staff are employed at the service, especially in situations where the patient has a limited proficiency in written and spoken English. Approximately one-fifth of Indigenous people living in remote areas report difficulty in understanding or making themselves understood by service providers, and around half did not have a working telephone.

Educational indicators
* 18% of Indigenous adults have completed year 12, compared to 44% of non-Indigenous adults. This is an improvement on the 1994 rate of 10%.
* The proportion of Indigenous people aged 25-64 years who have a non-school qualification was 32% in 2002, compared to 57% of non-Indigenous people. This is an improvement on the 1994 figure of 20%.
* While Indigenous students comprised 3% of the total vocational education and training student population in 2003, they are still under-represented in higher education, accounting for 1% of the total higher education population in 2003.

Housing and Employment Indicators
* Indigenous people are half as likely to be purchasing their own home as non-Indigenous people (27% as opposed to 74%)
* The unemployment rate for Indigenous Australians is more than twice the rate for non-Indigenous Australians.

Even in the area of social justice, there are many thing more important than an apology. If the government wants to do something good for the Indigenous people of Australia, fix their education, employment, and most importantly, health issues.
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Re: Is the Australian Government Sorry Now?

Postby Ecky » Thu Dec 20, 2007 4:05 pm

pafc1870 wrote:* Indigenous people are half as likely to be purchasing their own home as non-Indigenous people (27% as opposed to 74%)

:?
John Olsen, June 2012 wrote:"Reserves teams in the SANFL for the two AFL clubs is not negotiable.
We will not compromise the SANFL competition (with AFL reserves teams)."
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Re: Is the Australian Government Sorry Now?

Postby RustyCage » Thu Dec 20, 2007 4:09 pm

Ecky wrote:
pafc1870 wrote:* Indigenous people are half as likely to be purchasing their own home as non-Indigenous people (27% as opposed to 74%)

:?


Dont ask me about the actual stats! I got them from http://www.philanthropy.org.au/issues/indigenous.html

Or the maths which makes 27 half of 74!!!
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Re: Is the Australian Government Sorry Now?

Postby Ecky » Thu Dec 20, 2007 4:11 pm

I'm just being pedantic, pafc. :wink:
John Olsen, June 2012 wrote:"Reserves teams in the SANFL for the two AFL clubs is not negotiable.
We will not compromise the SANFL competition (with AFL reserves teams)."
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Re: Is the Australian Government Sorry Now?

Postby RustyCage » Thu Dec 20, 2007 4:14 pm

Ecky wrote:I'm just being pedantic, pafc. :wink:


Thats fine with me! I didn't even notice the mistake
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Re: Is the Australian Government Sorry Now?

Postby topsywaldron » Fri Dec 21, 2007 12:52 am

Punk Rooster wrote:& to the w&nkers like Topsy who want to turn my above situations into commentary from a racist, get a life. Or perhaps do your part for the cause & give your comfortable middle-class dwelling & lifestyle to someone less fortunate, whilst yourself moving to the poorer areas of Huntfield Heights/Elizabeth West...


All I'd like to do is say sorry, and make reparations, to the people whose kids were stolen from them by the Australian Government. Pretty simple really.
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Re: Is the Australian Government Sorry Now?

Postby redandblack » Fri Dec 21, 2007 8:36 am

It is simple, topsy. The convoluted arguments from those who disagree are necessary to hide that simplicity.
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Re: Is the Australian Government Sorry Now?

Postby mick » Fri Dec 21, 2007 9:44 am

topsywaldron wrote:
Punk Rooster wrote:& to the w&nkers like Topsy who want to turn my above situations into commentary from a racist, get a life. Or perhaps do your part for the cause & give your comfortable middle-class dwelling & lifestyle to someone less fortunate, whilst yourself moving to the poorer areas of Huntfield Heights/Elizabeth West...


All I'd like to do is say sorry, and make reparations, to the people whose kids were stolen from them by the Australian Government. Pretty simple really.

If it was so simple it would have been done long ago. The Rudd government isn't the first Labor administration we have had in Australalia is it? I suppose no Australian government wants to go down in history as giving the legal industry, their greatest ever windfall.
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Re: Is the Australian Government Sorry Now?

Postby Andy #24 » Fri Dec 21, 2007 11:01 am

I'm not sure all of this stuff about an admission of liability is true. Saying sorry isn't necessarily an admission and an admission doesn't automatically make you liable, it can simply be used as evidence in court where otherwise it would be excluded as hearsay. i think Mick and Pysber may have got the wrong idea.
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Re: Is the Australian Government Sorry Now?

Postby redandblack » Fri Dec 21, 2007 11:41 am

Exactly. If there was a class action, it would be irrelevant whether the Government had said sorry or not. It would be decided by the courts on the facts.

As for worrying about lawyers benefiting, there are enough issues in the courts keeping them happy as it is. One more won't make much difference.

It's a question of what is right.
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Re: Is the Australian Government Sorry Now?

Postby Wedgie » Sat Dec 22, 2007 10:33 am

mick wrote: The Rudd government isn't the first Labor administration we have had in Australalia is it?

No, but they're the first Labor administration since the Bringing Them Home report was made.
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Re: Is the Australian Government Sorry Now?

Postby Psyber » Sat Dec 22, 2007 1:00 pm

Andy #24 wrote:I'm not sure all of this stuff about an admission of liability is true. Saying sorry isn't necessarily an admission and an admission doesn't automatically make you liable, it can simply be used as evidence in court where otherwise it would be excluded as hearsay. i think Mick and Pysber may have got the wrong idea.

You haven't dealt with many lawyers then have you!?
I have had working relationships [sort of working if you stay on their tails] with several major law firms including Julia Gillard's former employers for a good 15 years.
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Re: Is the Australian Government Sorry Now?

Postby Psyber » Sat Dec 22, 2007 1:09 pm

redandblack wrote:Exactly. If there was a class action, it would be irrelevant whether the Government had said sorry or not. It would be decided by the courts on the facts.

As for worrying about lawyers benefiting, there are enough issues in the courts keeping them happy as it is. One more won't make much difference.

It's a question of what is right.

No, " No win No pay" deals for a percentage of the take are much more lucrative if you can engineer it so a win is likely in advance - lots of money for minimal time put in. They would happily drop the time consuming ones.

As I have said in another thread, I have seen situations where law firms have discouraged workers from pursuing treatment and recovery to try to get bigger payouts for permanent disablement. They should work to ensure prompt early treatment is provided because recovery and return to the workforce is usually worth a lot more to the worker in the long run.

And no, I am not of the "force them back to work" ilk. I have done two reports for insurers in the last week as an independent expert saying the worker is being rushed inappropriately.
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Re: Is the Australian Government Sorry Now?

Postby Andy #24 » Sat Dec 22, 2007 1:15 pm

Psyber wrote:
Andy #24 wrote:I'm not sure all of this stuff about an admission of liability is true. Saying sorry isn't necessarily an admission and an admission doesn't automatically make you liable, it can simply be used as evidence in court where otherwise it would be excluded as hearsay. i think Mick and Pysber may have got the wrong idea.

You haven't dealt with many lawyers then have you!?
I have had working relationships [sort of working if you stay on their tails] with several major law firms including Julia Gillard's former employers for a good 15 years.


Just got a couple of electives left on my law degree. I'm not an expert by any means but a lot of people misintepret what lawyers do and get a wrong idea about the law. Just think how ridiculous it would be if the Government could attract liability for an event just because they said sorry. Saying sorry doesn't shed any light on what happened.

Admissions would be useful in a case where an employee of a shop said "oops, sorry I forgot to clean up that jelly that you just slipped on a broke your neck". This statement would be excluded but for the fact that it is an admission.

Keep going with the name dropping though Psyber, I enjoy the stories about who you've worked with and which kinds of beetle juice you've drank on which continents.
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