Is the Australian Government Sorry Now?

[Psyber]

Fair enough, but I was posting at a community support/moral/feeling angle and can see a massive gulf that concerns me about our community.

I'd share that - we'd just have to debate how to go about fixing it when we are running the country in partnership. I'm confident method rather than goal would be our sticking point..

[smac]

I thought this article was interesting, in the spirit of debate in this thread.

Even if the Australian Govt are not really sorry at the start of the process, they will most certainly be sorry at the end of the process.

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,22939997-2,00.html

[Dirko]

That's a fair chunk of money. over a billion .
What would the recipients do with it, would be my main question. Would they put it toward the communities or line pockets ?
If they put it toward communities would the Government then re-evaluate the need for welfare payments and the like ?
It'd start a precedent of economic disaster. If they got a billion dolllar compensation, then it'd just open the door for individual lawsuits
and when would it stop?
I agree the Government should say sorry, in regard to the compensation I think there are certain people who see this as a prime chance
to money grab.

[Andy #24]

i'm a product of the stolen generation. my grandfather was taken away as a child, we did not know until his death.

my mother, born in 1960, (who if you see her, you would see that she clearly is aboriginal), has "Colour: White" on her Birth Certificate because of the fear that she'd be taken away.


If you speak to an Aboriginal person, they would tell you that they know either a family member, or someone close to them that was taken away.


Personally I hope the Labor do apologise, not for financial gain, but for the symbolic closure that many Aboriginal people need.

MrJB,
Your comment on the issue is one I can respect, regarding that you would like an apology for closure, & not for financial windfall.
If a sincere & genuine expression of remorse (ie Sorry) could be said without a Class Action suit following, commence forthwith.
I fear the Topsy Waldrons of the world are waiting, briefcase at the ready, at the steps of the Federal Courts...

How does apologising open the door for lawsuits? They've already tried and mostly failed at that avenue.

[smac]

Did you read the article Andy?

It appears the motives of many are financial.

[Punk Rooster]

Now I'm just waiting for Topsy Waldron to tell me how wrong I was....

[redandblack]

I'm happy to save you the wait and tell you you're wrong, punky

[Ecky]

Interesting to see that news.com.au article generate over 800 responses (so far), with most of them against any payout to the "stolen" generation.

Unfortunately, what this sort of lobbying does is just confirm people's racial prejudices further, as it is easy to label the lobbyists as greedy and unworthy and it gives white Australians an excuse for discriminatory behaviour. It will be very hard to convince the average Australian that their taxpayers money should be spent on supposed crimes of a previous generation that are very difficult to prove, and where it is unsure whether the money would be truly beneficial to the recipients anyway.

[Psyber]

Did you read the article Andy?
It appears the motives of many are financial.

The whole thing is being driven by the legal eagles. "Regret" that it happened won't do because it is not [mis]interpretable as an admission of liability like "Sorry". All briefcases sharpened and ready to fly!

It reminds me of WorkCover cases I have had involvement in where law firms, after a percentage of a lump sum on the "no win, no fee" basis, have encouraged a worker not to have treatment on offer as it may reduce the residual disability and the lump sum, and refused to do anything to assist in getting treatment that is being denied to the worker, which may assist recovery and prevent permanent incapacity.

[redandblack]

All this legal crap is just an excuse to not recognise a shameful part of our history, regardless of the reasons at the time.

[am Bays]

I'm going to get howled down for this and what I say isn't going to compensate for the emotional trauma that parents and children suffered however the following is paraphased from a conversation I had with one indigenous Australian, who was removed from his parents, in Alice Springs a few years back:

"Yeah some terrible things happened to us which are no use repeating but growing up in Adelaide [under the catholic church's care] gave me an education and opportunities this has allowed me and my family to enjoy a much better standard of life than I would have had if I stayed home"

That is to the best of my recollection the intent of what he said. I don't pretend it speaks for all persons who were forcibly removed as it is an n = 1. But most of those taken away all admit their ability to have a higher standard of living for them and their family is unquestionable.

As one old bloke told me you can't change history only shape it in other words what happened in teh past you can't change so whats the point worrying about it, but if you want to get him going ask him about the all the "new" aboriginals that have suddenly found their "identity" when 30 years ago in Darwin they would deny it.

Wedgie and Mrjbeam I mean no disrespect to your kin and I'm sure you can relate a different perspective to my experiences talking to kin who were taken away from their parents.

People need to understand like groups in soceity their is a section of them who will use issues for personal gain so I do question the motives of some given the advantages i know their are people who identify with the "Stolen generation" - please note the inverted commas as stolen generation implies a whole generation was taken away but it wasn't a whole generation - because now it is politically expediant so in that respect Punky is 100% on the money.

[topsywaldron]

I thought this article was interesting, in the spirit of debate in this thread.

Even if the Australian Govt are not really sorry at the start of the process, they will most certainly be sorry at the end of the process.

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,22939997-2,00.html

No worries pal, I'm coming in to your house stealing your telly, car and fridge and will see how long it is before you put in an insurance claim. That kind of compo for a wrongdoing ok is it?

What price do you want, or indeed can you, put on a child?

Keith Windschuttle would love this thread.

[Psyber]

All this legal crap is just an excuse to not recognise a shameful part of our history, regardless of the reasons at the time.

On the contrary, apart from some who genuinely suffered from what I think were misguided rather than racist or malicious decisions in the past, a lot of what is going on now is driven by the pursuit of cash, not necessarily by those directly involved but by those aiming to use them.

In that context "to not recognise a shameful part of our history" is being driven by a huge load of "legal crap", rather than the other way around.

[Andy #24]

Did you read the article Andy?
It appears the motives of many are financial.

The whole thing is being driven by the legal eagles. "Regret" that it happened won't do because it is not [mis]interpretable as an admission of liability like "Sorry". All briefcases sharpened and ready to fly!

It reminds me of WorkCover cases I have had involvement in where law firms, after a percentage of a lump sum on the "no win, no fee" basis, have encouraged a worker not to have treatment on offer as it may reduce the residual disability and the lump sum, and refused to do anything to assist in getting treatment that is being denied to the worker, which may assist recovery and prevent permanent incapacity.

Psyber, if there was any hint of what you said happened lawyers would be struck off left right and centre. Was this in SA? Can't charge a percentage of lump sum here.

Regret vs Sorry is a load of crap. I can't see any legal implications at all from the choice of words. You can't just become liable for something that happened by simply uttering one word 40 years on. If the gov is setting up a fund they can probably legislate to stop individual suits anyway.

People seek compensation for a variety of motives. The amount given is determined by the harm caused on them. It's impossible to quantify damages by any other means. If people fit the criteria for a pay out they should get it.

Regardless of whether some people get money undeservedly or whether some people may have a higher standard of living, tearing apart families and almost wiping out a culture doesn't sit well with me. The issue deserves more than a token apology.

[topsywaldron]

On the contrary, apart from some who genuinely suffered from what I think were misguided rather than racist or malicious decisions

Weasel words.

Do you have kids Psyber? I think your capitalist view of life is destroying their upbringing so I'll be taking them from you as I know better than you about how to raise them. You may get to see them a few years down the track if they've progressed.

No difference.

[Andy #24]

All this legal crap is just an excuse to not recognise a shameful part of our history, regardless of the reasons at the time.

On the contrary, apart from some who genuinely suffered from what I think were misguided rather than racist or malicious decisions in the past, a lot of what is going on now is driven by the pursuit of cash, not necessarily by those directly involved but by those aiming to use them.

In that context "to not recognise a shameful part of our history" is being driven by a huge load of "legal crap", rather than the other way around.

Can you give us an example of where this has happened? Is there any evidence for this other than your intuition that suggests people may take advantage of this?

C'mon mate, I think you're just being overly suspicious of a large group of people.

[topsywaldron]

C'mon mate, I think you're just being overly suspicious of a large group of people.

LMAO. There's another word for that...

[JK]

I know this is a sensitive issue, so I hope this is received as the genuinely intended legitimate question (I'm the first to admit I'm NOT as learned on this topic as others) it's meant to be ... But I know of people close to me who claim (privately and without any concern toward recompense) to have been non-indigenous people "stolen" from their family, and I just wonder why this topic doesn't seem to encompass such a thing?

[smac]

I thought this article was interesting, in the spirit of debate in this thread.

Even if the Australian Govt are not really sorry at the start of the process, they will most certainly be sorry at the end of the process.

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,22939997-2,00.html

No worries pal, I'm coming in to your house stealing your telly, car and fridge and will see how long it is before you put in an insurance claim. That kind of compo for a wrongdoing ok is it?

What price do you want, or indeed can you, put on a child?

Keith Windschuttle would love this thread.

Not like you to overreact mate...

I was merely offering an article of interest to the debate - all I mentioned was that the Govt will be sorry by the end of the process. Someone involved in the process stating $1b is insufficient compensation indicates it may wind up significantly more than that and I'm sure that would make anyone sorry.

Another point of interest is being able to confirm who was involved - do you suggest we compensate everyone who says they were forcibly removed or try and validate the claims? My insurance company would ask for receipts and a police report...

[topsywaldron]

Not like you to overreact mate....

LOL.

Someone involved in the process stating $1b is insufficient compensation indicates it may wind up significantly more than that and I'm sure that would make anyone sorry.

Doesn't make me sorry at all.