The never ending No AFL in the SANFL whinge thread

[bennymacca]

UK Fan - do you think the SANFL sanctions a Port adelaide GWS game in south australia?

[jo172]

John, what is the basis of your assertion that the description "governing body" provides an exclusive right to sanction the playing of football?

Do you accept the Australian Cricket Board of Control was the governing body of Australian cricket during World Series Cricket?

Governing by its very nature retires the consent of the governed

Pull out your school dictionary and look up the word govern

Lol, they can call themselves the governing body all they like, and yes of course they are a powerful organization affiliated with most or all football leagues in South Australia, but calling themselves the 'governing body' doesn't vest the league with some sort of legal power to prevent private citizens from organising matches of footy.

Why would they prevent it. Private citizens kicking a footy on the Oval nothing to do with sanfl.

It’s a nothing event. What to organise a league on the other hand.

So can I organise 200 mates, divide them into 8 teams and stage a tournament without the SANFLs approval?

Where in your view is the line?

[morell]

No wonder visiting teams playing AFL struggle at Adelaide Oval, they probably didn't realise they were playing under SANFL rules.

Might start screaming "25!!"

[morell]

Region.............................................................Governing body........................................Major competition(s)
Australian Capital Territory.........................AFL NSW/ACT.............................................North East Australian Football League / AFL Canberra
New South Wales New South Wales..........AFL/NSW/ACT............................................ North East Australian Football League / Sydney AFL
Northern Territory Northern Territory......AFL Northern Territory..........................…Northern Territory Football League
Queensland Queensland............................AFL Queensland........................................Queensland Australian Football League
South Australia South Australia.................South Australian Football Commission..South Australian National Football League
Tasmania Tasmania.....................................AFL Tasmania............................................Tasmanian Football League
Victoria (Australia) Victoria..........................AFL Victoria................................................Victorian Football League
Western Australia Western Australia........West Australian Football Commission....West Australian Football League

What do you notice about the last column? Do you see AFL as the major competition anywhere? What does that tell you?

The SANFL are the governing body for the state based competitions and affiliated leagues. Not for *all* football and especially not for the *national* competition. The AFL are not an affiliated league, Port and the Crows are not owned by the SANFL anymore. The SANFL have no say about what happens at AFL level other than perhaps being part of the SMA and having input on scheduling at the venue.

They're stakeholders and obviously have logical ties, but if you for one second think the AFL need to get the SANFL's approval to run an AFL Reserves comp you're utterly deluded.

It's like 1990 happened and everyone ITT just kind of forgot. Unbelievable.

[morell]

The best example is AFL-X

Did they need SANFL permission to do those games at Hindmarsh?

Puhlease.

[jo172]

The best example is AFL-X

Did they need SANFL permission to do those games at Hindmarsh?

Puhlease.

I just want to know if PNU and Tanunda are going to get in trouble for the trial on Saturday that no one ran past the SANFL, Adelaide Footy League or BLG

[UK Fan]

Region.............................................................Governing body........................................Major competition(s)
Australian Capital Territory.........................AFL NSW/ACT.............................................North East Australian Football League / AFL Canberra
New South Wales New South Wales..........AFL/NSW/ACT............................................ North East Australian Football League / Sydney AFL
Northern Territory Northern Territory......AFL Northern Territory..........................…Northern Territory Football League
Queensland Queensland............................AFL Queensland........................................Queensland Australian Football League
South Australia South Australia.................South Australian Football Commission..South Australian National Football League
Tasmania Tasmania.....................................AFL Tasmania............................................Tasmanian Football League
Victoria (Australia) Victoria..........................AFL Victoria................................................Victorian Football League
Western Australia Western Australia........West Australian Football Commission....West Australian Football League

John, what is the basis of your assertion that the description "governing body" provides an exclusive right to sanction the playing of football?

Do you accept the Australian Cricket Board of Control was the governing body of Australian cricket during World Series Cricket?

Governing by its very nature retires the consent of the governed

Pull out your school dictionary and look up the word govern

Lol, they can call themselves the governing body all they like, and yes of course they are a powerful organization affiliated with most or all football leagues in South Australia, but calling themselves the 'governing body' doesn't vest the league with some sort of legal power to prevent private citizens from organising matches of footy.

Nobody claiming they can that I can see.

Happy to repeat SANFL have publicly stated they will block crows/powers entry into afl reserves.

Like we stated they should 10 pages ago.

The defence rests.

[johntheclaret]

Region.............................................................Governing body........................................Major competition(s)
Australian Capital Territory.........................AFL NSW/ACT.............................................North East Australian Football League / AFL Canberra
New South Wales New South Wales..........AFL/NSW/ACT............................................ North East Australian Football League / Sydney AFL
Northern Territory Northern Territory......AFL Northern Territory..........................…Northern Territory Football League
Queensland Queensland............................AFL Queensland........................................Queensland Australian Football League
South Australia South Australia.................South Australian Football Commission..South Australian National Football League
Tasmania Tasmania.....................................AFL Tasmania............................................Tasmanian Football League
Victoria (Australia) Victoria..........................AFL Victoria................................................Victorian Football League
Western Australia Western Australia........West Australian Football Commission....West Australian Football League

John, what is the basis of your assertion that the description "governing body" provides an exclusive right to sanction the playing of football?

Do you accept the Australian Cricket Board of Control was the governing body of Australian cricket during World Series Cricket?

Governing by its very nature retires the consent of the governed

Pull out your school dictionary and look up the word govern

Lol, they can call themselves the governing body all they like, and yes of course they are a powerful organization affiliated with most or all football leagues in South Australia, but calling themselves the 'governing body' doesn't vest the league with some sort of legal power to prevent private citizens from organising matches of footy.

Show me where I said it did. I think ‘private’ is your keyword there

[johntheclaret]

Pull out your school dictionary and look up the word govern

Lol, they can call themselves the governing body all they like, and yes of course they are a powerful organization affiliated with most or all football leagues in South Australia, but calling themselves the 'governing body' doesn't vest the league with some sort of legal power to prevent private citizens from organising matches of footy.

Why would they prevent it. Private citizens kicking a footy on the Oval nothing to do with sanfl.

It’s a nothing event. What to organise a league on the other hand.

So can I organise 200 mates, divide them into 8 teams and stage a tournament without the SANFLs approval?

Where in your view is the line?

Nothing to stop you doing that. Unless it was sanctioned then it wouldn’t be official, you wouldn’t have official officials (referees) and I guess you wouldn’t have any protection for the participants like a players union or whatever it is called these days, player insurance or insurance for the organisers. You wouldn’t have to play by the rules either, it’d be no different than half a dozen bloke playing in a park.

You seem to think that every match has to be individually approved or something. Don’t you think there is already a well established tier system in place. After all they’ve only been doing it for 130 years. Football did exist in SA before the the AFL arrived.

Do you think I’m suggesting there is a little bloke in an office somewhere that has to sign off every game or something. Lol.

[johntheclaret]

No wonder visiting teams playing AFL struggle at Adelaide Oval, they probably didn't realise they were playing under SANFL rules.

Might start screaming "25!!"

Who said they were playing under sanfl rules. If you think that the AFL playing in SA happened completely independently of any agreement or consultation with the SAFC ( its a bit of a misnomer to keep calling the governing body the SANFL but I guess the two bodies are so closely aligned it would reasonable to use the sanfl acronym), then you are being a bit naive.

Those agreements would have been signed off in the 90’s when SA entered a team in the AFL. Those same agreements would have covered every perceived aspect of the AFL playing regulation Australian Rules football in SA. If those agreements included the constitution of an AFL Reserves League, then there’d be nothing to stop the AFL playing Reserves matches in a Reserves competition within SA. If those agreements, which of course would be contracturally binding, didn’t include a Reserves league then the AFL would have to negotiate that with the SAFC.
It isn’t really rocket science.

[UK Fan]

No wonder visiting teams playing AFL struggle at Adelaide Oval, they probably didn't realise they were playing under SANFL rules.

Might start screaming "25!!"

Who said they were playing under sanfl rules. If you think that the AFL playing in SA happened completely independently of any agreement or consultation with the SAFC ( its a bit of a misnomer to keep calling the governing body the SANFL but I guess the two bodies are so closely aligned it would reasonable to use the sanfl acronym), then you are being a bit naive.

Those agreements would have been signed off in the 90’s when SA entered a team in the AFL. Those same agreements would have covered every perceived aspect of the AFL playing regulation Australian Rules football in SA. If those agreements included the constitution of an AFL Reserves League, then there’d be nothing to stop the AFL playing Reserves matches in a Reserves competition within SA. If those agreements, which of course would be contracturally binding, didn’t include a Reserves league then the AFL would have to negotiate that with the SAFC.
It isn’t really rocket science.

You'll have to forgive Frankenstein. Certainly not the smartest tool in the shed.

For those wanting to set up a team $2600 in rego fees. Getting expensive this kick and a catch.

http://websites.sportstg.com/get_file.cgi?id=36213750

http://websites.sportstg.com/get_file.cgi?id=3477014

[johntheclaret]

Region.............................................................Governing body........................................Major competition(s)
Australian Capital Territory.........................AFL NSW/ACT.............................................North East Australian Football League / AFL Canberra
New South Wales New South Wales..........AFL/NSW/ACT............................................ North East Australian Football League / Sydney AFL
Northern Territory Northern Territory......AFL Northern Territory..........................…Northern Territory Football League
Queensland Queensland............................AFL Queensland........................................Queensland Australian Football League
South Australia South Australia.................South Australian Football Commission..South Australian National Football League
Tasmania Tasmania.....................................AFL Tasmania............................................Tasmanian Football League
Victoria (Australia) Victoria..........................AFL Victoria................................................Victorian Football League
Western Australia Western Australia........West Australian Football Commission....West Australian Football League

What do you notice about the last column? Do you see AFL as the major competition anywhere? What does that tell you?

The SANFL are the governing body for the state based competitions and affiliated leagues. Not for *all* football and especially not for the *national* competition. The AFL are not an affiliated league, Port and the Crows are not owned by the SANFL anymore. The SANFL have no say about what happens at AFL level other than perhaps being part of the SMA and having input on scheduling at the venue.

They're stakeholders and obviously have logical ties, but if you for one second think the AFL need to get the SANFL's approval to run an AFL Reserves comp you're utterly deluded.

It's like 1990 happened and everyone ITT just kind of forgot. Unbelievable.

I don’t know what you think I’m “utterly deluded” about. Show me where I’ve suggested that the AFL need to get sanfl approval to run a Reserves competition. They are the governing body in 6 of the states, Sure they can run a Reserves Competition.

As for SA, the AFL was represented by the two clubs who operated under license to the SANFL. Note, “under license”. If the SANFL ( See SAFC) isn’t the governing body in SA why did the AFL clubs have to operate under license, why didn’t the AFL just franchise 2 expansion teams like they did in Queensland or NSW. It’s simple, they could franchise expansion teams in those states because they are the governing body in those states. They had accept two teams under license to the SANFL in SA because they aren’t the governing body in SA.

The fact that the SANFL have subsequently sold those licenses to the clubs / AFL is irrelevant to governance. So throwing it straight back at you, if you think that during the course of those license transfers there wasn’t a detailed agreement between the SANFL and the AFL on all foreseeable aspects of the clubs operating in SA, then I think it isn’t me that is “utterly deluded”.

Incidentally, I’m not suggesting those contractural agreements are to the benefit of the SANFL (SAFC). They haven’t proven to be very good negotiators, as the admittance of the Reserves into the SANFL has proven.

[johntheclaret]

The best example is AFL-X

Did they need SANFL permission to do those games at Hindmarsh?

Puhlease.

I just want to know if PNU and Tanunda are going to get in trouble for the trial on Saturday that no one ran past the SANFL, Adelaide Footy League or BLG

It will be in the constitution of the leagues that they play in and they signed up to as clubs. Without seeing it, I suspect the constitution will have a clause that allows clubs to arrange freindlies / trail matches. There will no doubt be provisos on officiating, venues I’d guess, and other requirements like medical and so on. But those constitutions would have been approved by the SANFL (SAFC) many years ago.

That Pyramidal system means the SANFL doesn’t have to be involved in every game in every league.

So in answer, I’d suggest that neither clubs will get in trouble on Saturday as they already have permission through their league affiliation.

[UK Fan]

Region.............................................................Governing body........................................Major competition(s)
Australian Capital Territory.........................AFL NSW/ACT.............................................North East Australian Football League / AFL Canberra
New South Wales New South Wales..........AFL/NSW/ACT............................................ North East Australian Football League / Sydney AFL
Northern Territory Northern Territory......AFL Northern Territory..........................…Northern Territory Football League
Queensland Queensland............................AFL Queensland........................................Queensland Australian Football League
South Australia South Australia.................South Australian Football Commission..South Australian National Football League
Tasmania Tasmania.....................................AFL Tasmania............................................Tasmanian Football League
Victoria (Australia) Victoria..........................AFL Victoria................................................Victorian Football League
Western Australia Western Australia........West Australian Football Commission....West Australian Football League

What do you notice about the last column? Do you see AFL as the major competition anywhere? What does that tell you?

The SANFL are the governing body for the state based competitions and affiliated leagues. Not for *all* football and especially not for the *national* competition. The AFL are not an affiliated league, Port and the Crows are not owned by the SANFL anymore. The SANFL have no say about what happens at AFL level other than perhaps being part of the SMA and having input on scheduling at the venue.

They're stakeholders and obviously have logical ties, but if you for one second think the AFL need to get the SANFL's approval to run an AFL Reserves comp you're utterly deluded.

It's like 1990 happened and everyone ITT just kind of forgot. Unbelievable.

I don’t know what you think I’m “utterly deluded” about. Show me where I’ve suggested that the AFL need to get sanfl approval to run a Reserves competition. They are the governing body in 6 of the states, Sure they can run a Reserves Competition.

As for SA, the AFL was represented by the two clubs who operated under license to the SANFL. Note, “under license”. If the SANFL ( See SAFC) isn’t the governing body in SA why did the AFL clubs have to operate under license, why didn’t the AFL just franchise 2 expansion teams like they did in Queensland or NSW. It’s simple, they could franchise expansion teams in those states because they are the governing body in those states. They had accept two teams under license to the SANFL in SA because they aren’t the governing body in SA.

The fact that the SANFL have subsequently sold those licenses to the clubs / AFL is irrelevant to governance. So throwing it straight back at you, if you think that during the course of those license transfers there wasn’t a detailed agreement between the SANFL and the AFL on all foreseeable aspects of the clubs operating in SA, then I think it isn’t me that is “utterly deluded”.

Incidentally, I’m not suggesting those contractural agreements are to the benefit of the SANFL (SAFC). They haven’t proven to be very good negotiators, as the admittance of the Reserves into the SANFL has proven.

Can someone explain the above to Frankenstein very very slowly.

MW and BennyMac maybe let someone else have a go first fellas. I'm pretty sure you'll know why.

[johntheclaret]

The best example is AFL-X

Did they need SANFL permission to do those games at Hindmarsh?

Puhlease.

Do you think these clubs turned up and started playing football?
I’m pretty sure Freindlies / Trail matches would have been covered in the original agreements. Afterall they aren’t a new concept.

I don’t know what “ Puhlease” means. Is that a word you just made up?

[UK Fan]

The best example is AFL-X

Did they need SANFL permission to do those games at Hindmarsh?

Puhlease.

Do you think these clubs turned up and started playing football?
I’m pretty sure Freindlies / Trail matches would have been covered in the original agreements. Afterall they aren’t a new concept.

I don’t know what “ Puhlease” means. Is that a word you just made up?

"Puhlease" is better than the crap he makes up in his graphs.

[UK Fan]

The SANFL obviously have jurisdiction over the SANFL, independent of the AFL, which is why the AFL needed permission to field the reserves teams in the SANFL.

But the SANFL have no jurisdiction over the Crows or the Power anymore, they sold those licences. So if they wanted to play in an AFL reserves comp, ran by the AFL and not the SANFL, i doubt they would have anything to do with it. Just like they have nothing to do with the Crows playing in the AFL now.

Why do you think all clubs in all leagues in SA playing Australian Rules Football play by the same rules, (unless the SANFL is trialling a rule change).

you have proven the point that the SANFL is a different entity than the AFL, so would have no say in AFL games

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=p7w64fbqYQY

[johntheclaret]

Anyway........back on topic,

Personally, the Reserves leaving the SANFL will be a good thing. As raised many times before, the $50k a year the clubs get is far outweighed by lost membership and refreshments revenue. Not everyone can afford, or would anyway, spend the $10k a year that Wedgie did, but work it out, if each person spends only $100 on entry, few beers and something to eat, maybe with a nipper in tow, then it’s soon gone. 50 members x $100 x 10 games and that’s the $50k gone.

There hasn’t been any other benefits the Reserves brought. The 4,000 fans never materialised, in fact the numbers went down, the extra media exposure never materialised, if anything that has only been to the advantage of the AFL clubs, the TV deal cost the SANFL more than a million dollars to broadcast games involving either Reserves teams (take a look at this year’s schedule), and I haven’t seen any real evidence of the increased sponsorship that was going to pay for it.

So what has the sanfl got to lose.? Any AFLite is welcome to interject here.

On the other hand the SANFL has an opportunity to promote itself as a real alternative, offering real traditional football at traditional venues. It might attract back some of its lost fan base which would replace the lost $50k.
As for new / younger fans, there are two routes to that. Father and kids, most current SANFL fans support their team because their parents did. Whilst it will be difficult, there is still a generational connection between the current existing fanbase and their offspring.

But there is another market. There are 000’s of 15 - 30 year olds playing good old traditional football, the rough and tumble kind of footy that used to played. It’s a different brand to the sanitized AFL game and maybe the SANFL might be better appealing to those fans than trying to replicate the AFL game but with players who don’t have the skill sets to pull it off. Instead we end up with a boring negative brand with countless turnovers and few goals.
Offer an alternative brand with an alternative style and you might just start attracting fans who can relate to game being played. Matches that produce 30 - 40 goals are always going to be more exciting than two teams slugging out 8.6 def 6.7. Nowadays the team that can kick 10 goals is usually the winner and does nothing to attract new fans.

Sadly the current SANFL committee seem bereft of any ideas that doesn’t involve rolling over for the AFL to give them a little tickle.

[morell]

Region.............................................................Governing body........................................Major competition(s)
Australian Capital Territory.........................AFL NSW/ACT.............................................North East Australian Football League / AFL Canberra
New South Wales New South Wales..........AFL/NSW/ACT............................................ North East Australian Football League / Sydney AFL
Northern Territory Northern Territory......AFL Northern Territory..........................…Northern Territory Football League
Queensland Queensland............................AFL Queensland........................................Queensland Australian Football League
South Australia South Australia.................South Australian Football Commission..South Australian National Football League
Tasmania Tasmania.....................................AFL Tasmania............................................Tasmanian Football League
Victoria (Australia) Victoria..........................AFL Victoria................................................Victorian Football League
Western Australia Western Australia........West Australian Football Commission....West Australian Football League

What do you notice about the last column? Do you see AFL as the major competition anywhere? What does that tell you?

The SANFL are the governing body for the state based competitions and affiliated leagues. Not for *all* football and especially not for the *national* competition. The AFL are not an affiliated league, Port and the Crows are not owned by the SANFL anymore. The SANFL have no say about what happens at AFL level other than perhaps being part of the SMA and having input on scheduling at the venue.

They're stakeholders and obviously have logical ties, but if you for one second think the AFL need to get the SANFL's approval to run an AFL Reserves comp you're utterly deluded.

It's like 1990 happened and everyone ITT just kind of forgot. Unbelievable.

I don’t know what you think I’m “utterly deluded” about. Show me where I’ve suggested that the AFL need to get sanfl approval to run a Reserves competition. They are the governing body in 6 of the states, Sure they can run a Reserves Competition.

As for SA, the AFL was represented by the two clubs who operated under license to the SANFL. Note, “under license”. If the SANFL ( See SAFC) isn’t the governing body in SA why did the AFL clubs have to operate under license, why didn’t the AFL just franchise 2 expansion teams like they did in Queensland or NSW. It’s simple, they could franchise expansion teams in those states because they are the governing body in those states. They had accept two teams under license to the SANFL in SA because they aren’t the governing body in SA.

The fact that the SANFL have subsequently sold those licenses to the clubs / AFL is irrelevant to governance. So throwing it straight back at you, if you think that during the course of those license transfers there wasn’t a detailed agreement between the SANFL and the AFL on all foreseeable aspects of the clubs operating in SA, then I think it isn’t me that is “utterly deluded”.

Incidentally, I’m not suggesting those contractural agreements are to the benefit of the SANFL (SAFC). They haven’t proven to be very good negotiators, as the admittance of the Reserves into the SANFL has proven.

Staggered.

This was all accurate in 1985.

Since then, we've had a national competition established. Then we had two teams enter said comp, licensed to the SANFL.

Those licenses have since been sold. Their agreements with the SAFC annulled. They are now answerable to the AFL commission.

The SAFC signed a heads of agreement document, with the AFL, that will see the licenses and all associated conditions transferred to the two clubs.

http://sanfl.com.au/news/2014/03/27/sa- ... -licences/

The SANFL control what happens in the SANFL, their affiliated leagues and at the venues they own or have a managing interest in.

Outside of that, they can call themselves the "governing body" all they like,but they have zero ability to control anything at AFL level, other than as a consulted stakeholder.

If the AFL want to play a reserves comp in SA, they'll damn well do it.

[Booney]

The SANFL aren't the governing body, the SA Football Commission is.

Let's just clear that up so UK stops posting it.