Biggest Finals Upsets

[zedman]

Personally speaking, I played for a team in Victoria that paid players, I was one of them,

doubt that unless it was the opposition paying you to make sure you played..this was more likely to be memories from a wet dream i would suggest..

you can rant on and on and troll me and CLG all you like for as long as you like..its cute but a bit obsessive..

takes 22 to win a final..not 1..if a team takes the kudos when they win they have to own the defeats as well as a group, including the coach, and i did so for 3 years..harvey is a centurion full forward..his job was to kick goals..thats his role..the team with the most goals usually wins..you rob peter to pay paul when you take him out of the forward lines..with his OP he had no capacity to play midfield roles for more than 3-5 minutes anyway..even so, we did still play him there in bursts on several occasions this year after Rd 7, including the loss in the preliminary final..didnt the "astute" judge see that?

our midfield group was as strong bodied and experienced at SANFL levels as anyone in the competition this year..the coaches role is to instill confidence in his players and back them in at all times which i did with my midfielders..the centre its not always about size anyway..

i can go into many reasons why we lost the GF in 2013 but its just semantics..it doesnt change history..once our #1 ruck went down for the day at the first bounce we were always going to be under the pump..as would any team suffering the same fate..could harvey have done time in the middle? yeah maybe..along with about 10 other hypotheticals we mused over in hindsight..losing sucks like that..WOS played very well and deserved to win..end of story..

you stated before..all you have is "hearsay"..standard fare for trolls..munch munch munch..cheers..

[morell]

Well it was a from a very astute football person who was at the game, hardly a "spy".

I get Harvey's best spot is at full forward. I also understand he has OP. For **** sake jaykay I've played on the bloke, I know what hes capable of.

I also understand you lost clearance after clearance out of the middle to bigger bodied and more experienced midfielders. To me, it would have been a waste having Harvey in the goal square given this scenario. This was one of the big criticisms of the coach during those games. That he didn't react and change to the game unfolding.

Just my opinion though, football tactics and positioning could be debated ad infinitum.

He couldn't move, hence why he wasn't on for the last quarter, both the number 1 and number 2 ruckmen were out injured and we outscored them in the last quarter. Even Sherwood told us he was worried when we got within a couple of goals in the last. Moves were made - not many teams have bigger bodied midfields in the league and Harvey was held goalless anyway. Your spy obviously wasnt watching.

Hey fair enough mate, I wasn't there so I am commenting only what I have heard from a couple of different sources. If that's not the case then I will tip my hat to yourself and any others with superior knowledge.

Principally, if you have a gun full forward who isn't getting a kick I do like the idea of shifting him around to get him involved in the game. I'll leave it at that as its way off topic.

Really? I think it should be to win

oh yeah my bad. coaches dont need to come up with successful structures and make sure they're carried out.

before games coaches just need to walk in and tell the players to win, and watch the magic happen. easy.

Well of course they do. I think you've misunderstood my argument, or, perhaps I have conveyed it poorly.

In my mind the role of the coach is to support, guide and manage a playing group to provide them with the best possible chance of winning. That is done by implementing game plans, providing structures, making tactical decisions etc.

The specific line of argument was in relation to player management. I am very much a proponent of treating individuals, as, individuals. Some players respond to and need "control" and strict discipline. Others prefer gentler guidance. Others prefer nothing at all.

Which technique to use and when with what individuals, is in my opinion, what separates good coaches from great ones.

[HH3]

Managing individuals doesn't mean if a player thinks he's above the other 20 players in the team on the day, he can pick and choose what positions he plays.

Thats like me sitting at back pocket and watching our forwards struggling, then just moseying up and having a crack up forward coz i think i would do a better job.

That shouldn't happen. Thats why the coach has the magnet board, and not the players.

From the outside looking in id say the team/individuals were managed pretty well considering the key forward kicked 117 goals, and the team made the Prelim in its first year in a tougher division, 12 months after playing off in a GF (be it unsuccessful).

Seems like the coach knew what he was doing (from the outside looking in, which is what you're doing too)

[morell]

Managing individuals doesn't mean if a player thinks he's above the other 20 players in the team on the day, he can pick and choose what positions he plays.

Now you're making assumptions!

There is nothing wrong with a player suggesting he should be put in a different position if he thinks it benefits the team, especially if he is a senior member and experienced. In my opinion a good coach understands the subtleties about consultation and management, rather than dictating "my way or the highway".

But again, depends on the group and the situation. You may very well be right and the best thing for CLG was to leave Harvey where he was. I am not anywhere near arrogant enough to suggest I know more than the people involved, it was just feedback I heard from neutral observers of the game.

Thats like me sitting at back pocket and watching our forwards struggling, then just moseying up and having a crack up forward coz i think i would do a better job.

If you were a senior member of the team and you consulted with the leadership group and coaches, then I think thats fine!

Onfield leadership is so crucial. Players will always know more about what they are and are not capable of than even the best coaches. They also have an ability to react to things the coaches could never understand or see. This is why the AFL is leaning this way in regards to having the players drive the changes and gameday tactics.

The coaches are there to support and facilitate. IMO of course. Perhaps its just a difference of opinion of the most effective methodologies.

That shouldn't happen. Thats why the coach has the magnet board, and not the players.

Why shouldn't it happen? There has to be trust and a deep understanding of the overall goal and gameplan, but if a senior player thinks he can improve the team by doing something different, and provided he has the trust of the leadership group, he absolutely should be able to react and adapt.

From the outside looking in id say the team/individuals were managed pretty well considering the key forward kicked 117 goals, and the team made the Prelim in its first year in a tougher division, 12 months after playing off in a GF (be it unsuccessful).

Seems like the coach knew what he was doing (from the outside looking in, which is what you're doing too)

Yeah dunno about that.

My dead aunt could coach Harvey to kick 100+ goals in D6 with the team they had and my alive one who's never seen a game of football probably could've got them into the finals. With that team there is no way on gods green earth WOS should have got near them in 2013. Some of the best footballers you would want to see in D6. the credit for CLG's success in the seniors should go to their football director, IMO @scottroo

I guess the CLG committee agree with me, as they have promptly sacked said coach. Time will tell if that was the right call or the wrong call.

[morell]

Anyway, whilst a good discussion, it's probably off topic, I'll cede from here.

[Hefty]

Managing individuals doesn't mean if a player thinks he's above the other 20 players in the team on the day, he can pick and choose what positions he plays.

Now you're making assumptions!

There is nothing wrong with a player suggesting he should be put in a different position if he thinks it benefits the team, especially if he is a senior member and experienced. In my opinion a good coach understands the subtleties about consultation and management, rather than dictating "my way or the highway".

But again, depends on the group and the situation. You may very well be right and the best thing for CLG was to leave Harvey where he was. I am not anywhere near arrogant enough to suggest I know more than the people involved, it was just feedback I heard from neutral observers of the game.

Thats like me sitting at back pocket and watching our forwards struggling, then just moseying up and having a crack up forward coz i think i would do a better job.

If you were a senior member of the team and you consulted with the leadership group and coaches, then I think thats fine!

Onfield leadership is so crucial. Players will always know more about what they are and are not capable of than even the best coaches. They also have an ability to react to things the coaches could never understand or see. This is why the AFL is leaning this way in regards to having the players drive the changes and gameday tactics.

The coaches are there to support and facilitate. IMO of course. Perhaps its just a difference of opinion of the most effective methodologies.

That shouldn't happen. Thats why the coach has the magnet board, and not the players.

Why shouldn't it happen? There has to be trust and a deep understanding of the overall goal and gameplan, but if a senior player thinks he can improve the team by doing something different, and provided he has the trust of the leadership group, he absolutely should be able to react and adapt.

From the outside looking in id say the team/individuals were managed pretty well considering the key forward kicked 117 goals, and the team made the Prelim in its first year in a tougher division, 12 months after playing off in a GF (be it unsuccessful).

Seems like the coach knew what he was doing (from the outside looking in, which is what you're doing too)

Yeah dunno about that.

My dead aunt could coach Harvey to kick 100+ goals in D6 with the team they had and my alive one who's never seen a game of football probably could've got them into the finals. With that team there is no way on gods green earth WOS should have got near them in 2013. Some of the best footballers you would want to see in D6.

I guess the CLG committee agree with me, as they have promptly sacked said coach. Time will tell if that was the right call or the wrong call.

Morrell did someone from CLG run over your dog or something?? The last 3 pages of this thread has just been you shit-canning CLG coaches and players.

You say "why didn't they chuck their FF into the mid-field" - it's a massive double-edged sword though......if said gun FF gets thrown into the midfield and starts wining the clearances then who will be sitting up at FF to kick the goals?? As Zed has stated you can not rely on one player to win games of football...

[HH3]

You say "after consultation with the leadership group and coaches"...

Surely if this situation actually did happen, and I dont know if it did, coz the only person saying it did is you, who heard it secondhand apparenly, the forward in question would have said at least something to the coach/leadership group, and they must have said NO. end of discussion. they didn't trust that with his fitness, etc that he would be able to turn the game by being in the middle.

Also, hopefully you coach and get some egotistical players in your team, coz once you let one dictate where they play and when, you will generate a fair bit of disharmony in the playing group unless they're all mates, and agree on which position every player should be playing at any given time. There's only so many midfield positions, and if you have 5 senior players wanting to fill the 3 on-ball position (ruck excluded obviously) what are you gonna do?

Let them all go in? Nope. Coz thats a free the other way.

Let them work it out on the field? Maybe, but what if they don't like each other that much and it causes tension and arguments, while the games in the balance and emotions and adrenaline are high? Could be trouble.

Let the coach make the decision, take the brunt of the heat from the players, and keep the actual playing group on the field as unified as possible? I would. Maybe you would try something different, and thats fine.

This is all hypothetical coz this may not have even happened.

Im done too, I have work to do.

[morell]

Morrell did someone from CLG run over your dog or something?? The last 3 pages of this thread has just been you shit-canning CLG coaches and players.

You say "why didn't they chuck their FF into the mid-field" - it's a massive double-edged sword though......if said gun FF gets thrown into the midfield and starts wining the clearances then who will be sitting up at FF to kick the goals?? As Zed has stated you can not rely on one player to win games of football...

I have no real issue with the CLG Football Club. Lots of good people there and lots of cross connections and social ties to Mitchell Park. Hey I just paid credit to their football director for their success! They can be a little pretentious at times, but thats a personal preference.

On here I like to poke fun at them because their online presence is notoriously reactionary and sooky. That's what the pundits want as we all have a good laugh at their reactions at the Den.

Despite that there is no denying they have massively underachieved and are a statistical anomaly in regards to regular season success vs finals failure. I won't comment on their ex coach as a person, but I think he also underachieved considering the resources at his disposal - which is why they made the change I would suggest.

As for the pros and cons of moving players, sure, difference of opinion, as per discussion with HH.

[Footy Chick]

I think Ex-coach probably feels bad enough without you constantly rubbing it in. Have bit of consideration for others please.

It's unnecessary.

[Q.]

Couple of kicks away from D4. No premierships, but only someone with a chip on their shoulder would say Zwecky underachieved

[morell]

Duly noted.

[twobob]

Morell how long have you been involved with the Mitchell Park Football Club?

[morell]

Since I was 19, I'm now 31, so 12 years. Lived in Melbourne for a couple though.

And involved = playing. Not coaching or administration.

Hope this helps.

[scottroo]

Let's move on, happy to amuse the Mitchell park club with our reactions on here, you guys can worry on that, we will worry about winning games

[morell]

Fair enough scottroo, i'll take my licks

[scottroo]

One more thing you underestimate wosfc sqaud in 2013
-sherwood sanfl gun
-Ben moore played afl
-josh Pearce sanfl and gun country player
-josh starling good wood div one premiership player
-Nathan woods ex glenelg and div 1 saafl player
Along with Newman, kildea, Easton, etc etc a very good team

[morell]

Oh they were deserving premiers, no doubt. Very good side.

IMO CLG were a 10 goal better side and really should've won, but GF's are strange beasts.

[zedman]

success comes from ALL people at a club..not just the coach but also the FD as you mentioned, and the assistant and the B grade coach and the committee who do the work off the field and of course the players..in my time there we took the club from being 2 games from relegation to div 7 to being 2 kicks from div 4..thats a group effort..not one single person is responsible for the success..we all contributed and im proud of what we did there..

you show no respect to the excellent team WOS had in 2013 morell with whom we had a 10 point and 11 point margin in the regular season.."no way on gods green earth WOS should have got near them"..please list "the best footballers you would want to see in D6" and then i will list all the stars WOS had ok? but that would be factual then and i bet you will change the topic..

"but I think he also underachieved"..no worries thats your opinion..coming from a hateful jealous troll with the footy knowledge of a child its not really relevant what you think..95% of all coaches get sacked or "retired"..its how things go in the coaching game..at least CLG didnt shaft a premiership coach out of blind panic to keep a few players who left the year after anyway..

[zedman]

I think Ex-coach probably feels bad enough without you constantly rubbing it in. Have bit of consideration for others please.

It's unnecessary.

its ok FC..i am his obsession as everyone can see..i am sort of chuffed at his dedication to it..i must have really hurt him somewhere along the way..

[scottroo]

Well said Steve, what zwecky has done for the colonel light gardens fc will always be remembered by myself, moving Harvey onball like has been said before wasn't an option for more then a few minutes, he kicked 117 goals as a forward, I would keep him there. Morell if you put half as much effort into your club as Steve has at clgfc the Mitchell park would be a much better place. Although zedman is no longer senior coach at the club, he is still a mate and I will stick up for him.