AFL Reserves Discussion...

[UK Fan]

If the Reserves are voted in I have changed my tune from before last week. I see it simply as 10 teams battling out week to week, 8 of them SANFL clubs, 2 of them AFL Reserves teams. There is no point in pretending all is fair. You could probably pick out reasons why it never has been a fair competition going back to 1877. See it for what it is and make sure the rules and all the players are all laid out before the season starts and you play from there with what you've got.

I don't see how going along to Woodville Oval to watch the Eagles will change too much for me. Certainly not as much of a change as 1991. I'll still see the best junior footballers we have for a half season or so before they go off to the AFL (Toumpas, Dunstan, Polec, Smith etc.). I'll still see the best juniors that are unlucky not to get picked on AFL lists play for the club they grew up with (Rowntree, Goldsworthy, Cicolella etc.). I'll still see some recruits come across and write their name down in the history books of the club (McKenzie, Powell, Passador etc.). I'll still stand there with a beer with my old man, kids, mates and opposition supporters watching what still will be the best semi-professional competition in the country with 8 clubs with links back to not only last century but the century before, under no AFL influence. Those that follow the Crows just won't get it. If I have a son who has a lot more talent than me, I might be lucky enough to see him get the best chance of a career in football, either with an SANFL club or AFL club because the systems that have been put in place for junior footballers have been good ones.

If you don't think the players you are going to watch aren't still going to be spewing up in the pre-season, getting soaking wet on a freezing weeknight at training under average lighting, putting their bodies on the line deep into a game, jumping high to take a screamer on the shoulders or leaving the field on a stretcher then go and watch A-League, Ammos or whatever.

A lot jumped ship in 1991. They are not looked at too fondly by those who still love the SANFL. The SANFL clubs who are still the same SANFL clubs from 1991 (minus Port Adelaide in their original form, their choice) still need our support and still serve the same purpose of producing players to be the best they can be and winning SANFL premierships with what they have available to them.

I still stand by my choice to boycott the SANFL if the reserves come in and i respect your decision to continue on as normal.

The sad part is..........................that you have made more sense and gave a more balanced view/argument than the wankers from the Crows have ever proposed, mentioned, articulated etc etc.

Serious Question, genuinely interested to hear your opinion at what point would you say enough is enough, when would the league cross the line for you.

Don't fall for the best for SANFL bs. This has got nothing to do with our best interest and never has. Afl doesnt want an Independent sanfl competing against it. thats it.

SANFL turns it back on its members which it has shown nothing but contempt to for the last 22 years.

It's goodbye from me and trust me I will go everything to take others with me!!!

Anyone agrees to support this is more than a traitor than a crows fan dumping its team in 1991 IMHO!!!!

They have done zero research . Hello!!!!!!!!!!! That's how much respect they have for us.

SANFL commission to scared to be second best comp in oz ??? Why ?? Masters tell them off .

I will lose respect for any SANFL fan who agrees to cop this up the ass.

[BirdOfPrey]

If this happens it's goodbye for me.
I CAN NOT support a league that is Mickey Mouse, where most teams play to win and others develop.

I also can't support my club that will vote Yes to play in such a comp.....all for a few dollars and the FEAR of what might happen if we don't let the Cows in.

I still believe the SANFL holds the cards in all this but are too gutless to play them.( Adel oval, licences, AAMI stadium and all the land at West Lakes......make them pay for the licences upfront and not over 15 years etc)

I respect what other people decide to do, but for me and my family it will be over.

[Booney]

adelaidefc seems to be quite enjoying the repartee. Anyone else feel that?

[Magpiespower]

adelaidefc seems to be quite enjoying the repartee. Anyone else feel that?

Spectcularly hamfisted job full of half-truths and mis-truths; deflections and obfuscations.

There's a case study to be made out of this disaster.

Especially if and when the "Yes" vote comes in...

[rod_rooster]

adelaidefc seems to be quite enjoying the repartee. Anyone else feel that?

It does appear that way. Seems the officials at West Lakes are all cut from the same cloth. It's quite apparent what Tippett was on about when he said he left to go to a club with better culture. No coincidence he's in career best form now either.

[FlyingHigh]

OK, we've heard all the negatives why this shouldn't happen. Fair enough if people hold this view. What about the positives? Surely people are objective enough on here to realise that IF this happens there will be some benefits to the SANFL clubs and in particular the players who are coming through the system.

Even if the benefits don't outweigh the negatives it might be beneficial to show there is an understanding in why some league directors are casting this vote in favour for this NO AFL in the SANFL group to have some credibility.

It might be beneficial in showing how this should be done IF it is going to happen, instead of screaming NO and acting like a polar opposite of the AFC.

It seems a lot of people are all or nothing, when some middle ground might be the best thing for everyone.

The directors are worried about the comp losing further media profile along with sponsorship dollars if the Crows go to the SAAFL.

They are concerned at their ability to keep the clubs afloat if sponsorship dries up. I don't envy their position if they are having sponsors talking about withdrawing if the Crows do go to the SAAFL.

I don't get the impression that they are doing cartwheels at the idea of AFL Reserves teams in the comp but possibly view it as the least worst option.

All the undertakings and benefits being suggested are just a token effort to appear like the AFL clubs have the interests of the SANFL at heart.

I simply see this now as the club presidents are in damage limitation mode.

There is no doubt this whole debate has fractured and damaged the clubs and alienated sections of their core supporter base.

Agree areaman, that was my impression @ the meeting last week.
Clearly, their response has been contrived amongst themselves - Bays points virtually same as ours.

Having read EVERY post on this thread (& yes, I will claim a Double Century ), I had a thought:

What if...
Those of us that are walking away from Clubs, Membership, etc. got together as Supporters of SANFL & went to Crows Reserves Games ONLY?
A sort of an "Anti-Cheer Squad" if you like - supporting the Team playing the Crows Reserves on the day but also 'giving it' to the Crows & their supporters.
Squad Badges, Grog Squad Members Badges, 'Colours' of our original Clubs - all on mass.
Imagine, the North Groggies, Snout's Louts, Sturt CS Members, all of us together United against the common enemy

Wonder what the reaction from the Crows would be?
Would be a very interesting Social Experiment too - a season of Anti-Cheer Squad.
WESLO numbers would need to increase

Cant see me paying to see any crows game in any level of competition..... just wait for them at the gates......

Had kind of thought of this too, but then thought perhaps if there is one no voter we can all turn up in our old club colours to support them for a period of a few weeks. Imagine all us in our Eagles, Bays etc colours supporting South. Surely that would get some attention if there 500-1000 of us.

[Dutchy]

adelaidefc seems to be quite enjoying the repartee. Anyone else feel that?

It does appear that way. Seems the officials at West Lakes are all cut from the same cloth. It's quite apparent what Tippett was on about when he said he left to go to a club with better culture. No coincidence he's in career best form now either.

and Bock
and Gunston
and Davis

I never ever thought Id ever hate a team more than Port Adelaide, esp seeing I used to have a soft spot for the Crows....

[Agile]

adelaidefc seems to be quite enjoying the repartee. Anyone else feel that?

It does appear that way. Seems the officials at West Lakes are all cut from the same cloth. It's quite apparent what Tippett was on about when he said he left to go to a club with better culture. No coincidence he's in career best form now either.

Very good point. Integrity and afl do not go hand in hand.

If this happens it's goodbye for me.
I CAN NOT support a league that is Mickey Mouse, where most teams play to win and others develop.

I also can't support my club that will vote Yes to play in such a comp.....all for a few dollars and the FEAR of what might happen if we don't let the Cows in.

I still believe the SANFL holds the cards in all this but are too gutless to play them.( Adel oval, licences, AAMI stadium and all the land at West Lakes......make them pay for the licences upfront and not over 15 years etc)

I respect what other people decide to do, but for me and my family it will be over.

I respect your decision to turn your back on your Club. For me I will continue my conections with the NAFC and look forward to an SANFL that has eight teams busting their arse for a Thomas Seymor. The cows and powder will be viewed by me as warm up games and if they look to be dominating then I am sure the Directors will have the power to kick them out .
I'll be waiting and seeing. No rash decisions.

[Dutchy]

West Adelaide? The only club not to comment? Have they provided their members with any info?

[Aerie]

If the Reserves are voted in I have changed my tune from before last week. I see it simply as 10 teams battling out week to week, 8 of them SANFL clubs, 2 of them AFL Reserves teams. There is no point in pretending all is fair. You could probably pick out reasons why it never has been a fair competition going back to 1877. See it for what it is and make sure the rules and all the players are all laid out before the season starts and you play from there with what you've got.

I don't see how going along to Woodville Oval to watch the Eagles will change too much for me. Certainly not as much of a change as 1991. I'll still see the best junior footballers we have for a half season or so before they go off to the AFL (Toumpas, Dunstan, Polec, Smith etc.). I'll still see the best juniors that are unlucky not to get picked on AFL lists play for the club they grew up with (Rowntree, Goldsworthy, Cicolella etc.). I'll still see some recruits come across and write their name down in the history books of the club (McKenzie, Powell, Passador etc.). I'll still stand there with a beer with my old man, kids, mates and opposition supporters watching what still will be the best semi-professional competition in the country with 8 clubs with links back to not only last century but the century before, under no AFL influence. Those that follow the Crows just won't get it. If I have a son who has a lot more talent than me, I might be lucky enough to see him get the best chance of a career in football, either with an SANFL club or AFL club because the systems that have been put in place for junior footballers have been good ones.

If you don't think the players you are going to watch aren't still going to be spewing up in the pre-season, getting soaking wet on a freezing weeknight at training under average lighting, putting their bodies on the line deep into a game, jumping high to take a screamer on the shoulders or leaving the field on a stretcher then go and watch A-League, Ammos or whatever.

A lot jumped ship in 1991. They are not looked at too fondly by those who still love the SANFL. The SANFL clubs who are still the same SANFL clubs from 1991 (minus Port Adelaide in their original form, their choice) still need our support and still serve the same purpose of producing players to be the best they can be and winning SANFL premierships with what they have available to them.

I still stand by my choice to boycott the SANFL if the reserves come in and i respect your decision to continue on as normal.

The sad part is..........................that you have made more sense and gave a more balanced view/argument than the wankers from the Crows have ever proposed, mentioned, articulated etc etc.

Serious Question, genuinely interested to hear your opinion at what point would you say enough is enough, when would the league cross the line for you.

I thought this was enough. In fact, I wrote an email to the Eagles saying as much, that this was the breaking point and followed up with a phone call.

I reassessed after I listened to what Slaven and our members had to say at the Info night.

I guess enough will be enough when I don't enjoy going to the footy any more. Who knows when that will be. Hopefully never.

I am realistic enough and accept that what probably will happen will be:
- we revert to AFL rules and conditions.
- the game style continues to evolve like the AFL.

I can handle this. This is already happening more or less.

I am hopeful that:
- There will continue to be uncertainty over who wins each week between all 10 teams.
- The general public is actually surprised that the SANFL teams are too strong for the AFL Reserves teams.
- Crowds and support for the SANFL don't decline and possibly get a little stronger.
- The best facilities are used.
- There is no farcical situations with the AFL Reserves teams that devalue the competition.
- There is a respect for the competition by all those who play in it.

I am fearful that:
- We will lose any of the current 8 SANFL clubs.
- The AFL will bring in a national reserves competition after the horse has bolted.
- The SANFL will fall in line with other states, the salary cap will be reduced so we can't recruit, we will then fall behind WAFL and VFL because our population and economy can't compete.
- We will be purely a development league.
- There is no creative marketing to generate interest in the SANFL.
- The Crows and Power will get all of the media attention.
- No one will want to watch the game.
- Our SANFL clubs can't compete with the AFL Reserves clubs because of the above.

I don't necessarily think my fears will happen. I have an expectation that footy in this state will see importance in the SANFL competition and now that it is all aligned it will settle and be allowed to grow for what it is.

[mighty_tiger_79]

what happens if a team or 2 need to merge due to the negative financial impact of the crows??? will the Crows help them stay afloat to maintain a 10 team comp??

[BrekkyDJ]

If the Reserves are voted in I have changed my tune from before last week. I see it simply as 10 teams battling out week to week, 8 of them SANFL clubs, 2 of them AFL Reserves teams. There is no point in pretending all is fair. You could probably pick out reasons why it never has been a fair competition going back to 1877. See it for what it is and make sure the rules and all the players are all laid out before the season starts and you play from there with what you've got.

I don't see how going along to Woodville Oval to watch the Eagles will change too much for me. Certainly not as much of a change as 1991. I'll still see the best junior footballers we have for a half season or so before they go off to the AFL (Toumpas, Dunstan, Polec, Smith etc.). I'll still see the best juniors that are unlucky not to get picked on AFL lists play for the club they grew up with (Rowntree, Goldsworthy, Cicolella etc.). I'll still see some recruits come across and write their name down in the history books of the club (McKenzie, Powell, Passador etc.). I'll still stand there with a beer with my old man, kids, mates and opposition supporters watching what still will be the best semi-professional competition in the country with 8 clubs with links back to not only last century but the century before, under no AFL influence. Those that follow the Crows just won't get it. If I have a son who has a lot more talent than me, I might be lucky enough to see him get the best chance of a career in football, either with an SANFL club or AFL club because the systems that have been put in place for junior footballers have been good ones.

If you don't think the players you are going to watch aren't still going to be spewing up in the pre-season, getting soaking wet on a freezing weeknight at training under average lighting, putting their bodies on the line deep into a game, jumping high to take a screamer on the shoulders or leaving the field on a stretcher then go and watch A-League, Ammos or whatever.

A lot jumped ship in 1991. They are not looked at too fondly by those who still love the SANFL. The SANFL clubs who are still the same SANFL clubs from 1991 (minus Port Adelaide in their original form, their choice) still need our support and still serve the same purpose of producing players to be the best they can be and winning SANFL premierships with what they have available to them.

I still stand by my choice to boycott the SANFL if the reserves come in and i respect your decision to continue on as normal.

The sad part is..........................that you have made more sense and gave a more balanced view/argument than the wankers from the Crows have ever proposed, mentioned, articulated etc etc.

Serious Question, genuinely interested to hear your opinion at what point would you say enough is enough, when would the league cross the line for you.

I thought this was enough. In fact, I wrote an email to the Eagles saying as much, that this was the breaking point and followed up with a phone call.

I reassessed after I listened to what Slaven and our members had to say at the Info night.

I guess enough will be enough when I don't enjoy going to the footy any more. Who knows when that will be. Hopefully never.

I am realistic enough and accept that what probably will happen will be:
- we revert to AFL rules and conditions.
- the game style continues to evolve like the AFL.

I can handle this. This is already happening more or less.

I am hopeful that:
- There will continue to be uncertainty over who wins each week between all 10 teams.
- The general public is actually surprised that the SANFL teams are too strong for the AFL Reserves teams.
- Crowds and support for the SANFL don't decline and possibly get a little stronger.
- The best facilities are used.
- There is no farcical situations with the AFL Reserves teams that devalue the competition.
- There is a respect for the competition by all those who play in it.

I am fearful that:
- We will lose any of the current 8 SANFL clubs.
- The AFL will bring in a national reserves competition after the horse has bolted.
- The SANFL will fall in line with other states, the salary cap will be reduced so we can't recruit, we will then fall behind WAFL and VFL because our population and economy can't compete.
- We will be purely a development league.
- There is no creative marketing to generate interest in the SANFL.
- The Crows and Power will get all of the media attention.
- No one will want to watch the game.
- Our SANFL clubs can't compete with the AFL Reserves clubs because of the above.

I don't necessarily think my fears will happen. I have an expectation that footy in this state will see importance in the SANFL competition and now that it is all aligned it will settle and be allowed to grow for what it is.

Sir, may I address your hopes and fears from a VFA(VFL) point of view and what has happened.

I am realistic enough and accept that what probably will happen will be:
- we revert to AFL rules and conditions.

That happened in the VFA(VFL). We lost one of our most recent rules, that if you kick backwards in your back half, it's not a mark, it's play on.

Also, up until about 20 years ago, it was 16 men on the field for each side (no wingmen)

- the game style continues to evolve like the AFL.

Some sides like Box Hill (controlled by Hawthorn) would play the 'Hawthorn game plan' regardless if it was costing them the game or not. It cost them plenty of games in 2011, but is working for them this year!

I am hopeful that:
- There will continue to be uncertainty over who wins each week between all 10 teams.

The only certainties in the VFA(VFL) at the moment is that Geelong are flogging everyone (we play them this week - bugger!) and that Bendigo may not win a game all year. Every other team/game is a 50/50 coin flip.

- The general public is actually surprised that the SANFL teams are too strong for the AFL Reserves teams.

Up until 2010, there was the saying that "A standalone VFA team will never win the flag". The Port Melbourne came out in 2011 and won the flag... 21 wins 0 Loses - First team in 93 years to do it! That changed some people's thinking, but some AFL trolls claimed their reserves "were not trying" and the "wins didn't matter".

- Crowds and support for the SANFL don't decline and possibly get a little stronger.

Home and Away, plus Finals crowds are all down compared to the VFA's glory days. Worse result for your club is being at home and play an AFL reserves side when their AFL team is on the same day in town... means a low crowd and poor financial return.

- The best facilities are used.

When playing Essendon's VFL team at Windy Hill, the opposition gets changed in the Cricket Club's bar.
You read it right, there's no proper change-rooms, they get changed in the bar!

- There is no farcical situations with the AFL Reserves teams that devalue the competition.

Pulling players out at the last second from playing has Sandringham and it's AFL partner St Kilda at loggerheads.

- There is a respect for the competition by all those who play in it.

Williamstown are breaking away from Footscray, because the Dogs would put in the call to remove a player from the field during the final quarter... despite how close the game might be.

I am fearful that:
- We will lose any of the current 8 SANFL clubs.

The competition in the late 80s/early 90s lost many clubs, like Dandenong, Oakleigh, Northcote, Camberwell, Yarraville, Sunshine, Northcote, Brunswick-Broadmeadows, Waverley, Prahran... to name a few.

Bendigo is skating on thin ice, Casey (Springvale) had to be bailed out by a white knight at the end of last year and there are fears for Coburg who are going standalone next year.

- The AFL will bring in a national reserves competition after the horse has bolted.

With more and more traditional VFA clubs splitting from their AFL partners, it could happen sooner rather than later. All VFL licences expire at the end of 2014.

- The SANFL will fall in line with other states, the salary cap will be reduced so we can't recruit, we will then fall behind WAFL and VFL because our population and economy can't compete.

Less money in the SANFL salary cap will see players go bush chasing the coin. In 2011, Patrick Rose and Brendan Fevola finished 1-2 in the league's goal-kicking. Next year they were both playing bush footy and earning more than they did in the VFL.

- We will be purely a development league.

That's how the VFL gets treated sometimes. Some sides play to win, others (like Frankston for a while), purely to develop players for the AFL draft.

- There is no creative marketing to generate interest in the SANFL.

The media man at the VFL tries his best with the footy record, and there's a half-hour show on SEN (Plus ABC TV and Community Radio Coverage), BUT you never see any ads before or during the season for the VFA(VFL) - no creative marketing at all

- The Crows and Power will get all of the media attention.

Read the paper on Sundays and Mondays. All the VFL articles are about how the AFL listed players went. Standalone sides and players barely get a mention.

- No one will want to watch the game.

In the 70s/80s, home games for stronger clubs would get 8,00o to 10,000 per game.
Now they get around 1,500 on average.

In the 70s/80s Grand Finals at Junction Oval would be at capacity... around 30,000 +
Now at Etihad Stadium, the Grand Final pulls in around 14,000 to 17,000

- Our SANFL clubs can't compete with the AFL Reserves clubs because of the above.

Frankston struggled the last 5 years (now turning it around), Bendigo can't win a game and Port Melbourne (after a fantastic 2011-2012) find ourselves in danger of missing finals (if we drop our last two games).


It's simple... a Yes vote to the Crows in the SANFL is a ticket to the way down.

If only I was alive during the 60s and 70s... the glory years when the VFA took it up to the VFL/AFL

[The Sleeping Giant]

West Adelaide? The only club not to comment? Have they provided their members with any info?

Interesting isn't it. Especially when one of the reasons clubs are voting yes is to help west and Sturt survive.

[geppscrossrams]

West Adelaide? The only club not to comment? Have they provided their members with any info?

Interesting isn't it. Especially when one of the reasons clubs are voting yes is to help west and Sturt survive.

I have a feeling that we will vote yes, which will be a disgrace considering the club has no effort to communicate with members over this issue and find out what the general feeling amongst the members are over this issue.

[Brodlach]

West Adelaide? The only club not to comment? Have they provided their members with any info?

Interesting isn't it. Especially when one of the reasons clubs are voting yes is to help west and Sturt survive.

I have a feeling that we will vote yes, which will be a disgrace considering the club has no effort to communicate with members over this issue and find out what the general feeling amongst the members are over this issue.

I too think they will vote yes which is why they have not said anything. The decision is already made

[Aerie]

Thanks BrekkyDJ. I hope someone in charge reads what you wrote and puts in place things that will ensure we don't follow the same path.

Perhaps the SANFL has already learnt somewhat, in that they aren't compromising any of the standalone clubs.

BTW, we could list plenty of reasons why the SANFL isn't as good as it was 25 years ago as well. It is about making sure it is better from this point onwards, with or without AFL Reserves teams.

[Barto]

West Adelaide? The only club not to comment? Have they provided their members with any info?

Interesting isn't it. Especially when one of the reasons clubs are voting yes is to help west and Sturt survive.

It has a potential to hurt us financially. The Crows think they're doing us a favour by making all their games "away" games, but the set up for each home game costs us.

It's kind of clever in a way for the Crows to make this offer. They know if supporters of the SANFL club boycott the games it will be a pyrrhic victory because your club will lose money.

[JK]

West Adelaide? The only club not to comment? Have they provided their members with any info?

Interesting isn't it. Especially when one of the reasons clubs are voting yes is to help west and Sturt survive.

It has a potential to hurt us financially. The Crows think they're doing us a favour by making all their games "away" games, but the set up for each home game costs us.

It's kind of clever in a way for the Crows to make this offer. They know if supporters of the SANFL club boycott the games it will be a pyrrhic victory because your club will lose money.

Which is why they should have been forced to underwrite it.

Then they'd say "Stuff ya, we're off to the SAAFL"

Then the SANFL should have said "Stuff ya, you're not getting your license"

[Apachebulldog]

saintal i second dat !!!!

[Gozu]

The club votes still not secured are those of Norwood and South Adelaide.

Glenelg president Nick Chigwidden declared his "yes" vote at an information meeting of Tiger members on Tuesday night.

The SANFL will be left with the Port Adelaide issue.

The Power also wants a reserves team in the SANFL but is refusing to concede the Magpies reserves and under-age teams and recruiting zones as demanded by the commission.

The directors could vote to revoke the Magpies licence and offer this vacancy in the SANFL to a stand-alone Power reserves team.

http://www.news.com.au/sport/commission ... m-breached

Rucci says vote tonight and formal announcement with the SANFL & Crows tomorrow.