AFL Reserves Discussion...

[tipper]

Just spoke to ontherails, mungo jerry and lambchops before they go in for North's "members night". Apparently North are a definite yes vote. I have requested everyone feed lambchops heaps of grog, so he lets Bohdan know what we think of him.

By the sounds of things, the North v Glenelg game on Sunday week might be the last appearance by some North supporters at Prospect. Could be an interesting day.

I would but they didn't open the ******* bar!!

[tigers34738586]

OK, we've heard all the negatives why this shouldn't happen. Fair enough if people hold this view. What about the positives? Surely people are objective enough on here to realise that IF this happens there will be some benefits to the SANFL clubs and in particular the players who are coming through the system.

Even if the benefits don't outweigh the negatives it might be beneficial to show there is an understanding in why some league directors are casting this vote in favour for this NO AFL in the SANFL group to have some credibility.

It might be beneficial in showing how this should be done IF it is going to happen, instead of screaming NO and acting like a polar opposite of the AFC.

It seems a lot of people are all or nothing, when some middle ground might be the best thing for everyone.

The directors are worried about the comp losing further media profile along with sponsorship dollars if the Crows go to the SAAFL.

They are concerned at their ability to keep the clubs afloat if sponsorship dries up. I don't envy their position if they are having sponsors talking about withdrawing if the Crows do go to the SAAFL.

I don't get the impression that they are doing cartwheels at the idea of AFL Reserves teams in the comp but possibly view it as the least worst option.

All the undertakings and benefits being suggested are just a token effort to appear like the AFL clubs have the interests of the SANFL at heart.

I simply see this now as the club presidents are in damage limitation mode.

There is no doubt this whole debate has fractured and damaged the clubs and alienated sections of their core supporter base.

Agree areaman, that was my impression @ the meeting last week.
Clearly, their response has been contrived amongst themselves - Bays points virtually same as ours.

Having read EVERY post on this thread (& yes, I will claim a Double Century ), I had a thought:

What if...
Those of us that are walking away from Clubs, Membership, etc. got together as Supporters of SANFL & went to Crows Reserves Games ONLY?
A sort of an "Anti-Cheer Squad" if you like - supporting the Team playing the Crows Reserves on the day but also 'giving it' to the Crows & their supporters.
Squad Badges, Grog Squad Members Badges, 'Colours' of our original Clubs - all on mass.
Imagine, the North Groggies, Snout's Louts, Sturt CS Members, all of us together United against the common enemy

Wonder what the reaction from the Crows would be?
Would be a very interesting Social Experiment too - a season of Anti-Cheer Squad.
WESLO numbers would need to increase

Cant see me paying to see any crows game in any level of competition..... just wait for them at the gates......

[Dutchy]

The upsetting thing here, that is common amongst all clubs, is the clubs pissing off its core group of supporters that have stuck thru thick and thin over the years, any football club relies on its core group of loyal fans, without them it scares me where this comp will be in a few years...

[tipper]

I asked about that dutchy. I was told that without members the club would fold, and it would be our fault for not being members, not theirs for driving us away!

Also, according to bodhan, the directors vote is tomorrow night...

[LPH]

The upsetting thing here, that is common amongst all clubs, is the clubs pissing off its core group of supporters that have stuck thru thick and thin over the years, any football club relies on its core group of loyal fans, without them it scares me where this comp will be in a few years...

Yep...
Eagles dead in a decade - that's my call.
Our supporter base is aging worse than most - it's unlikely they will 'replenish the ranks' with youngsters.
Plus, core supporters/members walking away now - all suggests an issue.
My call... some Club will become 'East Perth' type eventually & might not be too far into the future

[Dutchy]

I asked about that dutchy. I was told that without members the club would fold, and it would be our fault for not being members, not theirs for driving us away!

Also, according to bodhan, the directors vote is tomorrow night...

Same line from Eagles, Bays and now North, wonder if they have all had some media training in the last few weeks

[Jim05]

I asked about that dutchy. I was told that without members the club would fold, and it would be our fault for not being members, not theirs for driving us away!

Also, according to bodhan, the directors vote is tomorrow night...

Yep they have rushed it forward before the members can tip the directors out.

[whufc]

If my club vote yes ill happily drop my membership card and season ticket off to the grand central office, will also request I'm off there email list as I want nothing to do with a club who sells their sole because of what they are scared of rather than what they believe in

[Pseudo]

What if...
Those of us that are walking away from Clubs, Membership, etc. got together as Supporters of SANFL & went to Crows Reserves Games ONLY?
A sort of an "Anti-Cheer Squad" if you like - supporting the Team playing the Crows Reserves on the day but also 'giving it' to the Crows & their supporters.
Squad Badges, Grog Squad Members Badges, 'Colours' of our original Clubs - all on mass.
Imagine, the North Groggies, Snout's Louts, Sturt CS Members, all of us together United against the common enemy

Wonder what the reaction from the Crows would be?
Would be a very interesting Social Experiment too - a season of Anti-Cheer Squad.
WESLO numbers would need to increase

I've got a better idea. What if we just don't go to their frickin' games?

[Pseudo]

Just posted this over on SL.org. Thought it was apropos to the discussion here. Apologies for the verbosity.


I went to the meeting with an open mind, prepared to take in what Chiggy had to say. Have had 24 hours to digest the message. My more salient thoughts are as follows.

Chiggy dropped those much-spoken weasel words, "integrity" and "relevance". He said that he thought the SANFL was still relevant but had lost integrity and had done so since the Crows were formed. As examples of integrity loss, he cited the following:
- performance of teams with a lot of AFL players is affected by whether or not they have access to those players on a given weekend. He cited Sturt as an example. (he didn't have to look outside of Glenelg for another good example - Lyons, Lynch and Logan make all the difference to us)
- traning difficulties with AFL players dropping back
- mid year transfers with players like McKernan changing clubs (though this has happened with non-AFL listed players; Phil McGuinness says hello)
- finals issues with AFL players sitting out after qualifying to play.

Surely then if integrity is paramount, and integrity has been compromised by the AFL players, then letting the Crows take all their players to the amateurs would restore integrity to the SANFL.

Chiggy thought that including a Crows reserve team would improve integrity, insofar as it would level the playing field.

It might level the field between sovereign SANFL clubs, granted, but the field is not levelled. The Crows have access to AFL calibre players, AFL club facilities, AFL sponsorship monies. Chiggy himself admits that a number of AFL-listed players in a team makes a difference to their performance. Well the Ravens will be composed almost entirely of AFL-listed players, and the other clubs none. You cannot seriously hold the belief that this will improve the integrity of the competition. You especially cannot do this after using the presence of AFL players to argue that the integrity is compromised; that requires a level of doublethink which no rational person could muster.

Chiggy suggested that the yearly review of the arrangement would be done to fine-tune things; to determine of the Ravens were too strong or too weak, what could be done about it.

Artificially hobbling a team to bring it back to the pack - or bolstering its performance to make it competitive - does nothing for the integrity of the competition.

Chiggy spoke of relevance in terms of recognising that there will be change in the SANFL next year no matter what, Glenelg can not compete with an AFL team, and Glenelg/SANFL has to work with the situation to maintain themselves as being the desired path of football development etc. The SANFL as a whole was seen as in need of revitalisation.

Chiggy opined that the Crows joining the ammos would decrease the relevance of the SANFL. With the Crows in the SANFL, the Crows would assist in pushing the GFC brand, maintaining links with kids in schooles etc. With the Crows in the ammos then the sponsorship to SANFL clubs and media coverage would decline.

The media coverage of the SANFL is already minimal; we wouldn't be losing much if it stopped. Furthermore once the Crows come in the media coverage will be heavily biased in favour of the Crows reserve teams. The Tigers would be reduced to "a team which occasionally plays the Ravens" .

Chiggy feared that the poaching of SANFL players by cashed-up country leagues would increase if the relevance of the SANFL decreased.

The Crows model calls for the SANFL salary cap to decrease by 10%. How many SANFL players will give more thought to a country league contract rather than take a pay cut? (In fairness, Scrippsy stood up and said that we won't have to account for AFL players in our salary cap and that salary issues would thus even out. Also not many clubs are in a position to raise their salary budget, let alone maintain it).

I asked a question along these lines: "I know the Crows have said they don't want to play in our reserves. Why don't you as directors insist that the Crows play one year in our reserves competition as a trial. I don't want them in the SANFL at all, but who knows, after a year we might all see the benefit and the Crows would get what they want".

Chiggy's response was short and sweet: "The Crows don't want that". Then he took the next question.

A bloke near me said "it's all about the Crows isn't it." This hit the nail on the head. We know what the Crows want. If the Crows were dinkum about working with the league, preserving integrity and so forth, then what would it hurt to serve one year in our ressies? Chiggy pointed out early on that in his role as director he had to act in the best interest of the SANFL, not specifically in the interest of the GFC. THEN WHY DISMISS THIS OUT OF HAND? WHY WORK ENTIRELY TO ACCOMMODATE THE CROWS AND NOT THE SANFL CLUBS? We know the Crows don't want it - but maybe it would be in the interest of the CLUBS!

Meditating on that last point is the kicker. The directors claim to be working for the good of the SANFL. Maybe they believe that they are - but they have equated "good for the SANFL" with "good for the Crows". Maybe all the directors think this, that by pandering to the Crows they'll be feathering their (club's) nest for the immediate future.

After Ecky's comment ("let the Crows go to the ammos. We have more to lose. The Crows will kill us", met with a round of applause from the assembly), Chiggy said "the GFC needs your support".

That may well be the case Chiggy, but you've made it clear that you believe the GFC needs the Crows support more than it needs support of the members. I think you're wrong. Without members the GFC is not a community football club. The GFC is defined by its members, not by the whims of a short-sighted AFL franchise.


I posted here some time ago that I would pull membership of the club if it votes yes. Assuming that Chiggy does not have a change of heart between now and the vote then I shall make good on that promise. Next year I will settle for a season ticket. I'll still come and watch the team (against other sovereign clubs, not AFL rubbish), I just won't support the club. I can not offer that level of support to a club which is doing something of this magnitude which, in my sober judgement, is Just Plain Wrong. I will reconsider this if circumstances require it.

Not sure what I'll do with the kids' memberships... I don't think they should suffer because their old man has a bee in his bonnet. I doubt that Miss Pseudomite would be fussed (though she enjoys getting the pencil case and other trinkets every year). I would feel bad about cancelling Master Pseudonymous' membership though. He loves coming to the games, he has Glenelg posters on his walls, Glenelg guernseys (thanks Dirko, ET), scarf, flag, etc. He was thrilled to meet Ty Allen at this year's family day. He has ZERO AFL merchandise. As I said to Kav last night, it's going to be hard to maintain this when Crows players are coming to his school, handing out free Crows shit, encouraging him and his friends to come to Glenelg and cheer for the Crows against the Tigers.

[topsywaldron]

Great, great post Pseudo.

The bit about your son is particularly poignant for me as it'd be exactly the same for my lad. But with better colours of course.

[saintal]

Agree, great post Pseudo, as depressing as it was to read.

[Agile]

So the NAFC is a yes vote. It would seem like there is going to be one , maybe two, AFL reserves teams in the SANFL next year. Up side is CONTROL of the situation, rather than going head to head with the VF, sorry, AFL. Make no mistake, A Domitriou and the AFL are backing the cows and powder behind the scenes on this war.
The SANFL have little choice other than a massive gamble on 13 red at the Cas.
Dont like it but can see no way out .
Greg Edwards should run for politics, sold his argument perfectly.

[csbowes]

I think people will find it hard to walk away from their club.

I did this year and it has been tough.

I keep thinking about joining up.

20 years plus as a member but not this year.

My friends couldn't do it, though some decided not to donate money towards the debt demolition, they remained members.

It's hard. You don't feel good sticking to a principle.

[tipper]

Great, great post Pseudo.

The bit about your son is particularly poignant for me as it'd be exactly the same for my lad. But with better colours of course.

One of my proudest moments as a father was when my little girl asked me to teach her how to sing "the red and white song" luckily she is still young enough that she probably won't notice us going any more.

[tipper]

I think people will find it hard to walk away from their club.

I did this year and it has been tough.

I keep thinking about joining up.

20 years plus as a member but not this year.

My friends couldn't do it, though some decided not to donate money towards the debt demolition, they remained members.

It's hard. You don't feel good sticking to a principle.

The right thing to do is rarely the easy thing to do. My statements aren't threats. I'm gone next year. The nafc expect us to come back in the future though. I think they will be surprised when it doesn't happen. People will find other things to fill that void very quickly...

[rod_rooster]

Was a long night at Prospect where a whole lot of spin boiled down to one point - Bohdan is voting yes based on the fear of what might happen should the Crows not get their way. That is the only reason no matter how much he rambled on nonsensically. Greg Edwards made the save for him several times cos Bohdan really struggled on a few occasions.

A couple of key points that i'm not sure have been confirmed on here or not were:

- The Crows will pay a licence fee of $50K per club per annum
- The annual review will take place but the SANFL will have to give 12 months notice to remove the Crows reserves side
- Clubs can choose to provide top up players or not. If they do it will happen pre season, be 18-22 year olds, and be reviewed at round 6 and 12 (players won't play against their home club).
- Other top up players will come from community football. Must not have been in the SANFL suystem for at least 18 months
- The salary cap for SANFL clubs will not change
- The channel 7 agreement has been locked in for 3 seasons

Much of this was already known to a point but according to Bohdan has been confirmed now.

There were a lot of questions. Some were answered well others saw Bohdan skirt around the issue and never actually give an answer. Some interesting comments were made by both Bohdan and Greg Edwards but i'm going to let a lot of the info sink in before i comment too much further. All in all a very predictable yet very dissapointing night.

[zipzap]

Having read EVERY post on this thread (& yes, I will claim a Double Century ), I had a thought:

What if...
Those of us that are walking away from Clubs, Membership, etc. got together as Supporters of SANFL & went to Crows Reserves Games ONLY?
A sort of an "Anti-Cheer Squad" if you like - supporting the Team playing the Crows Reserves on the day but also 'giving it' to the Crows & their supporters.
Squad Badges, Grog Squad Members Badges, 'Colours' of our original Clubs - all on mass.
Imagine, the North Groggies, Snout's Louts, Sturt CS Members, all of us together United against the common enemy

Wonder what the reaction from the Crows would be?
Would be a very interesting Social Experiment too - a season of Anti-Cheer Squad.
WESLO numbers would need to increase

YES!!

With our backs to the action, Snouts style!

[areaman]

I think I will still join up next year but my match attendance will change.

Until now I've arranged my weekends so I could attend as many Eagles games as possible (but still remain married).

Won't go to matches against AFL reserves teams.

Also won't put going to the Eagles matches as *1 priority next year.

I'm still really struggling after last Thursday's members meeting.

You can list all the benefits in the world to me but the fabric and authenticity of what I love can't be replaced by a licence fee and a few Crows players visiting a local school.

This vote is not about what is best for SA footy. We're just saving the furniture and hoping like hell that we're not a basket case in 2, 5 or 10 years.

Maybe those of us who go to matches on the weekend wear black armbands or something.

[whufc]

I think people will find it hard to walk away from their club.

I did this year and it has been tough.

I keep thinking about joining up.

20 years plus as a member but not this year.

My friends couldn't do it, though some decided not to donate money towards the debt demolition, they remained members.

It's hard. You don't feel good sticking to a principle.

Agree it definatly wont be easy, habits can be very hard to break.

Unfortunatly in my case just like what happens in most relationships i think i am heading in a different direction to where the SANFL clubs want to head.

The big dilemma for me will be if we vote NO and the Crows still come in. I will be very proud of my football club and will let them know and David Cavanett (who i have been very sceptical about and still think he will turn to a YES) that they have my full support and im proud they stuck up for their members.

BUT i have no interest in supporting a comp which is happy to sell its soul at the drop of a coin. For me there has to be a line drawn somewhere, im not someone who will support a club/league blindly and become a yes man to everything they propose. Imho once we let them have a side in the comp its only a matter of time until we let them dictate everything else (this has already started by the looks with us losing our standalone GF)

Maybe ill buy a club membership and still dine and drink at the club but not attend games.

No doubt there will be a little piece missing when im not going to games while the Dogs are playing BUT with all speculation and the inevitability of the AFL reserves it hasnt felt the same this year either and my interest has fallen away.

I hate everything the rebranded VFL stands for, its a corporate business with a football comp on the side.

For me the most disappointing thing if my club votes yes will be because they are scared of our dropping crowds and want to take the cash option.

The club for the last year has taken the easy option of purely blaming supporters for not showing up but what have they done for the supporters (apart from the results onfield which in the end bored alot of casual fans) the reality is

-the entry price is ridiculous
-poor scheduling of games
-expensive drink prices in the ground
-the facilities havent changed since the 1990's (oh wait we have a new hotdog stand and toilet block)
-no shelter whatso except for the Grand Stand which doesnt appeal to everyone
-the old mon-fri 9-5 work hours is a dying thing
-plenty of other things on such as 'shops open', 'events' 'foxtel' etc etc

Rather than take the easy option i would much preffered my club rolling up the sleeves and trying to do something about it rather than play the blame game.

Stick a fork in me im done!