AFL Reserves Discussion...

[zipzap]

Imagine how much flak a bunch of Crows fans, dressed in their free hats and future's-so-bright-I've-gotta-wear-shades shades, are gonna cop if they dare turn up to cheer against the traditional teams. I can't see it being pretty. Then again, they'll be listening to Rowey on their free little Crows trannies and probably will be completely oblivious. Weslo might want to be on hand when they start to leave early though

[whufc]

Well i could argue that the afl is compromised because they give concessions to sydney and collingwood get scheduling preferences to bring in the crowds. From that point of view every competition is compromised. When do u cross the line to an extent it becomes mickey mouse? Well im not 100 percent sure either but im fairly sure having a team in your league whose main focus is to develop players (not win a flag) brings it very close to the line. I dont doubt that every players goal is to play afl but what about players say in their mid twenties that are not quite good enough to make the afl? Is the most important thing for them playing against afl talent? I would argue that one of the things that attracts the brett zorzi's of the world is the opportunity to play in front some sort of a crowd in a competition that matters. Hence i dont see why having crows and power players in the league is necessary from that end.

Best call in the 190 odd pages of this debate.

[RB]

I think it is also important the best footballers in the state want to play in the SANFL competition if not in the AFL. I would say the vast majority of footballers coming through want to play AFL, but if not, they would want to play against a team of AFL players to test themselves.

Thing is, every single current SANFL player not on an AFL list wants to be out there in the SANFL, if not the AFL. If they didn't, they'd be playing in the ammos or the country and getting double the money. A Crows reserves side would be full of 19 year old Victorian slugs who know nothing of the history or the importance of the SANFL and will be more concerned with playing to Sando's instructions so that they get picked, which may not necessarily be playing for the win. Ultimately, they will not care for winning the T.S. Hill Trophy. At least not in the same way as the rest of the clubs.

For me, a side of players merely using the league as a stepping stone would be an insult to a 136 year old competition. There may be slight positives here or there, but I do not see how having a reserves team in a league competition doesn't ruin it. IMO, reserves teams are for reserves leagues.

[Long live SAnFL]

Yes of course as we really enjoy playing and beating your one club just like last Friday night...

Many battles (and games) are won and lost. It's winning the war that matters.

The bore war?

Keep playing that Prince song party like its 1999 because that is how long it has been since the magpies last won a flag...

[Strawb]

Went along to see Geelong play Williamstown today. Geelong got the better of the seagulls for the win. Good crowd but Williamstown fans are worried about next season already as the Doggies are ending their agreement and so the Doggies and Willy will be back to being rivals next season.

[Harry the Horse]

Its great that people have opinions either way and can voice them on a forum.

The things about a Ravens SANFL side i cant get over and havent heard a satifactory answer for are

-For me wanting to win the Thomas Seymour Hill Trophy should be the number one criteria for any team entering the SANFL. No matter what spill the Crows say the AFC number 1 priority is to win the AFL premiership, even the Ravens number 1 priority will be to develop rather than win no matter what the club says (yes players will try on the day but the overall philosiphy is to develop) This will also be evident in the Ravens supporters attitudes on game day

- We will now have a club who is competining on a completely different playing field in regards to salary cap, finances, resources, recruiting etc etc they will have their own set of rules compared to the other 8 clubs.

-We now may develop players for anywhere up to 6-7 years only to have them competing against us (different to losing a player to an AFL club now) at the call of a name with the SANFL club having 0% of a chance to compete for the players services.

-Despite being the lesser resourced club we may now may have the ridicoulous situation where we 'loan' our players out so another team can fill their side. Its not the Craigmore YMCA indoor soccer comp FFS. This will also cheapen the 'prestige' of being an SANFL league player

-Reduced salary cap and less games a season. We may also lose our standalone GF, we give alot up to the AFL and its brilliant that the SANFL has one week in the year where it is the sporting highlight of South Australia

-We now have a 'club' in our league who has no home ground and no juniors, hardly fits in with the whole SANFL clubs being community based etc etc.

-We will now have a league where we have one side who at times will be full of proffesionals competiting against sides who are semi proffesional sides. What other league in the world has proffesional sides playing against semi proffesional sides on a weekly basis, i cant think of any.

-Throw in the fact im very cynical and spectical and think that this is only the beginning of the SANFL becoming AFLSA

Agree with all of that.

Here's another problem with the whole fiasco.

On one hand, we demand the Crows play to win for the "integrity" of the competition.

But who really wants to see the Crows win the SANFL premiership?
Some of us have been waiting here decades to see our team do that.
If they do it, it will be like winning a reserves premiership for their "Johnny come lately" fans many of whom haven't been to an SANFL game or at least not for a long time - polite clap, good on you fellas but it really doesn't mean much if the AFL Crows have finished 12th.
So what's the point in that?
It's just wrong on so many levels.
But oh that's right, it's in the best interests of SA football.

[Aerie]

Its great that people have opinions either way and can voice them on a forum.

The things about a Ravens SANFL side i cant get over and havent heard a satifactory answer for are

-For me wanting to win the Thomas Seymour Hill Trophy should be the number one criteria for any team entering the SANFL. No matter what spill the Crows say the AFC number 1 priority is to win the AFL premiership, even the Ravens number 1 priority will be to develop rather than win no matter what the club says (yes players will try on the day but the overall philosiphy is to develop) This will also be evident in the Ravens supporters attitudes on game day

I think the team would want to. The club is a different matter. An argument could be made that the SANFL clubs put as much effort in to producing AFL players as they do winning the league premiership currently. The effort put in to producing AFL players is worthwhile because the whole junior system is strong as a result and players still filter through to league level.

- We will now have a club who is competining on a completely different playing field in regards to salary cap, finances, resources, recruiting etc etc they will have their own set of rules compared to the other 8 clubs.

Yes, probably two clubs. That is the way it is and clear guidelines should be set out before each season so everyone knows what the deal is. Plenty of these situations in sport throughout the world, EPL, Test Cricket etc.

-We now may develop players for anywhere up to 6-7 years only to have them competing against us (different to losing a player to an AFL club now) at the call of a name with the SANFL club having 0% of a chance to compete for the players services.

Yeah, this sucks. SANFL clubs will just have to accept it and realise the player's career goals are being achieved. I'm not a fan of the rookie list in the AFL, especially for senior players.

-Despite being the lesser resourced club we may now may have the ridicoulous situation where we 'loan' our players out so another team can fill their side. Its not the Craigmore YMCA indoor soccer comp FFS. This will also cheapen the 'prestige' of being an SANFL league player

I see this as a win/win. The SANFL clubs choose their two players. The player gets developed. The player then goes back to his SANFL club at the end of the season. The advantages the AFL clubs have with other things you mentioned are evened up by restricting how they can top up the bottom end of their list.

-Reduced salary cap and less games a season. We may also lose our standalone GF, we give alot up to the AFL and its brilliant that the SANFL has one week in the year where it is the sporting highlight of South Australia

Agree. Not so fussed with the less games, but the salary cap reduction is a kick in the guts. We should be aiming to become stronger, not weaken the SANFL clubs.

-We now have a 'club' in our league who has no home ground and no juniors, hardly fits in with the whole SANFL clubs being community based etc etc.

These sides won't be pretending to be community clubs. Yes, it will change the competition.

-We will now have a league where we have one side who at times will be full of proffesionals competiting against sides who are semi proffesional sides. What other league in the world has proffesional sides playing against semi proffesional sides on a weekly basis, i cant think of any.

VFL, NEAFL, WAFL. ODI World Cup Cricket.

-Throw in the fact im very cynical and spectical and think that this is only the beginning of the SANFL becoming AFLSA

I think the SANFL has already become AFLSA, just haven't changed the name. Probably since 1991 and especially with the current administration. Given the Crows have come crawling to the SANFL and the ramifications for them of playing Amateurs, here is a chance to make sure the SANFL is heard and demands are met.

Agree with all of that.

Here's another problem with the whole fiasco.

On one hand, we demand the Crows play to win for the "integrity" of the competition.

But who really wants to see the Crows win the SANFL premiership?
Some of us have been waiting here decades to see our team do that.
If they do it, it will be like winning a reserves premiership for their "Johnny come lately" fans many of whom haven't been to an SANFL game or at least not for a long time - polite clap, good on you fellas but it really doesn't mean much if the AFL Crows have finished 12th.
So what's the point in that?
It's just wrong on so many levels.
But oh that's right, it's in the best interests of SA football.

Who cares what the Crows fans think? Just make sure our clubs are strong enough to make sure it doesn't happen. It will be a measure of how strong our clubs are.

Playing a little bit of devils advocate with some of my answers in italics here. Good questions.

[Look Good In Leather]

[Its the point that if the Crows are allowed in now where does the line get drawn, the next step is they complain that the difference in rule interpretations is affecting players coming from the SANFL to AFL and that it would help the SANFL players get drafted if they played the same rules.

Then comes the we should have 22 players a game because the Crows have a full list at the start of the year and a player is missing out on an SANFL game.

Eventually there will be rules such as teams are only allowed 5 players over the age of 23 etc etc.

If the League wont stand up now they never will.

Im not willing to spend money over the counter of something that will become AFLSA in 5 years time.

Thanks to your piss weak club this is the way the comp is heading.

I agree the difference between AFL and what the SANFL was, is widening more and more.

I think the SANFL has changed a lot in the last few years. Pretty much since Bassett made Norwood the best team in the competition as far as on field play goes. SANFL coaches are coaching to an AFL style. Our rules are half AFL, half still SANFL.

Do you want a Rugby Union/League situation where the SANFL decides it goes in a different direction completely? Is this realistic?

Rule interpretations and the same number of players as in the AFL may happen. That is not much of a change to what is happening now.

I agree there needs to be some clarification regarding how our competition is viewed long term. I don't like the $20,000 less on the salary cap, following on from a reduction 5 or so years ago and import restrictions. I know the Eagles are out sourcing the best recruits around Australia right now for next season.

More information needs to come to hand, but regardless, IMO the SANFL and SA's two AFL clubs need to be cooperating to make footy better in this State.

This seems to be getting overlooked, this is the part that will destroy the league the most. Half the comp will be playing in the South East.

[teaoby]

the SANFL and the Crows have already said the salary cap can stay as is if the clubs want....

it is $20k less because there are less games! hence less match payments! pretty simple really! a lot, and im talking 6 out of 9 dont pay the full cap anyway! it really is a non-issue

[rod_rooster]

North having a members info night this Wednesday.

[SDK]

What if the Crows finish top 3 in the SANFL ....... do they play in the Foxtel Cup ?

[gossipgirl]

What if the Crows finish top 3 in the SANFL ....... do they play in the Foxtel Cup ?

yes ... NEXT

[Aerie]

the SANFL and the Crows have already said the salary cap can stay as is if the clubs want....

it is $20k less because there are less games! hence less match payments! pretty simple really! a lot, and im talking 6 out of 9 dont pay the full cap anyway! it really is a non-issue

It is two less games, but the pre-season won't be shorter and the commitments seem to be ever increasing. Meanwhile AFL players payments are going up and up. A rookie, who is no where near the standard of the best senior players in the SANFL, will soon be paid $59,000 per year. How many SANFL players are on that?

Because the juniors get taken by AFL clubs, the SANFL clubs need to recruit to maintain the standard.

Look at the list of last years retirees. That is how much of an impact recruits have had on our competition. A reduction in salary cap jeopardizes that.

Given the proposal harped on about being the 2nd best competition, you would think they'd want to make it possible to recruit the best players outside the AFL. Not to mention maintain the depth at the other end which is leaking players to country and ammos. As well as allowing SANFL clubs to compete with the Crows Reserves.

Unless it is all about being JUST a development competition. That's where you'll lose supporters. There needs to be a balance.

[PhilH]

No re Foxtel Cup

Geelong won the VFL flag last year ... did not participate

Brisbane Lions won the NEAFL flag last year... did not participate.


Can't seen any AFL club wanting their potential players playing two game in 4 days
or playing Tuesday night before a possible call up the next weekend.

[gossipgirl]

No re Foxtel Cup

Geelong won the VFL flag last year ... did not participate

Brisbane Lions won the NEAFL flag last year... did not participate.


Can't seen any AFL club wanting their potential players playing two game in 4 days
or playing Tuesday night before a possible call up the next weekend.

it would be exciting though

[Dogwatcher]

Went along to see Geelong play Williamstown today. Geelong got the better of the seagulls for the win. Good crowd but Williamstown fans are worried about next season already as the Doggies are ending their agreement and so the Doggies and Willy will be back to being rivals next season.

I follow the Seagulls, albeit it not with any great passion, and this will be the second time the club has ended an agreement with the Bulldogs. Meanwhile, in 2003 it won a premiership whilst it was Collingwood's affiliate.

[SDK]

Can't seen any AFL club wanting their potential players playing two game in 4 days
or playing Tuesday night before a possible call up the next weekend.



But it is OK for SANFL CLUBS !

[SDK]

Crows v Norwood ...... No Crows supporters. No Norwood supporters by boycott.
Crows v Centrals ........ No Crows supporters. No Centrals supporters by boycott.
Fill in your other clubs !

So the Crows play Carlton at home. Are the Crows saying their supporters will go to see the reserves as well ?

Norwood polled their supporters and it appears the general conclusion was most would not renew membership if the Crows were in the SANFL comp. Personally I would still go to Norwood games but would join the vast majority and boycott Crows games.
I will never ever ever attend another Crows AFL game again.

[Aerie]

Crows v Norwood ...... No Crows supporters. No Norwood supporters by boycott.
Crows v Centrals ........ No Crows supporters. No Centrals supporters by boycott.
Fill in your other clubs !

So the Crows play Carlton at home. Are the Crows saying their supporters will go to see the reserves as well ?

Norwood polled their supporters and it appears the general conclusion was most would not renew membership if the Crows were in the SANFL comp. Personally I would still go to Norwood games but would join the vast majority and boycott Crows games.
I will never ever ever attend another Crows AFL game again.

Not sure where you drew your general conclusion from? 88% said they'd renew membership.

http://www.norwoodfc.com.au/News/LATEST ... SULTS.aspx

[SDK]

Not what I heard which worries me, might be a bit of creative accountancy going on.