Crows in the SANFL - Q & A with the AFC

[Dutchy]

Its great to have the Crows, in particular David Burtenshaw GM Communications, willing to discuss this subject with us, please be respectful.

This thread is for Questions and Answers only, no statements or other posts please, use the other thread for that. Hopefully it will avoid questions being answered twice etc...


1)If you could show how the entry of two afl clubs in the wafl has benefited the other wafl teams?
2) how much have crowds increased at wafl games?
3) how has media interest increased in that competition and how has this translated to gate takings and commercial deals for the wafl clubs?
4) financially how have the wafl clubs benefited and how much would the sanfl clubs benefit , is the financial offer on the table comparable?
5) will the extra cost to the crows of having the proposed reserves side, translate to lower distributions to the clubs.

1-4: The WA model is completely different. Freo are aligned to Peel Thunder and West Coast are aligned with East Perth but AFL-listed players are still spread across all the WAFL clubs, so there is not much relevance to us at this stage. The financial model in WA footy is also completely different to here. But for the right to align with clubs, I believe the total package is worth about $75k from each AFL club. The AFC has been asked to keep our figures confidential at this stage but it will not be too far off this and it is addition to any payments for the transfer of our AFL licence and the Adelaide Oval agreement.
5): We don’t pay a dividend to the SANFL any more, as we did for about 20 years. We pay a set licence fee, which is $525,000 this year. The financial cost of a reserve side will be a cost for the AFC, no-one else.

6) how much does the AFL contribute directly to the sanfl clubs each year (excluding afl license dividends)? Is it truly under $1m?

You will need to ask the SANFL and the clubs that, I’m not sure exactly what the AFL sends their way. I do know though that AFL Game Development Grants totalled $1.4 million in 2012. AFL Talent Development Fees of about $1 million were also paid to the SANFL and its clubs. The SANFL makes money from AAMI Stadium on AFL games game days (catering, corporate, carp parks, reserved seating, some memberships, some advertising), plus receives licence fees from Port and the Crows ($525,000 for us this year). The Clubs also receive transfer fees for drafted players. Next year the SANFL will be funded by the Adelaide Oval arrangements and the transfer of the AFL licences.

7) how did Rob chapman arrive at 4,000 supporters going to a reserves game - particularly given with four times the population the crowds in Victoria are a quarter of sa? Does chapman think SA fans are that gullible?

The estimated crowd figure was not part of our SANFL proposal and is not part of the financial model. But we believe a Crows team will attract crowds from 2000 to 6000.

8/ how will crows players going to the community be of benefit to an sanfl club.

If the SANFL clubs want AFC’s help with this, we believe it can help promote the SANFL competition in general as well as the games.

9) how is dropping the salary cap by $20,000 going to make it easier for SA clubs to replace lost afl listed players, retain players and attract quality players.

Adelaide hasn’t dropped the salary cap, this is up to the SANFL. The salary cap remains the same per game but the teams will be playing less rounds.

10) how is "playing to the line", that is making sure an afl player plays finals (if medically sound) against an sanfl club, potentially even their "own" club seen as a positive, for sanfl fans?

The SANFL Commission and the Clubs want Adelaide to play this way. If you are going to talk about integrity, surely this has be the case. Once an SANFL player is drafted, he is our player, so he plays for the Club that pays him.

11) what current Adelaide players do you believe due to playing sanfl are having hindered development?

I’m not going to talk about individuals and I’m not part of our development coaching group. Some cope quite well with it, others don’t, but it is it hardest for the draftees from interstate. It’s not so much individual development that is the problem, it’s being prepared to play for the AFL team. It keeps all our listed players together, coached and developed by our staff and the SANFL league provides a strong competition.

12) why wouldn't the sanfl be better off selling the licenses, leasing footy park training facilities to you, deriving income from Adelaide oval, developing west lakes land, increasing its salary cap to improve quality, rather than accept the pittance from the Afc that has been described?

The SANFL are doing all of that, except for the salary cap increase. And our contribution to the SANFL is far from a pittance.

[TimmiesChin]

How can you 'play the line' when at times half or more of your side will be made up of 'ring ins' from other SANFL clubs or amateur leagues with no season long affiliation with your side?

[FlyingHigh]

AFL
40 on Main List - National Draft
18 on Rookie List - Under 20 (i.e. first two years out of U/18 junior football), from Recruitment Zone* only, stay aligned with junior club so if not picked for Futures League.

AFL FUTURES LEAGUE
Combination of AFL Reserves from Main List and Rookie List Players. All games played Saturday AM, Sunday AM or week nights for TV content.

SANFL/VFL/WAFL/NEAFL/TFL - these State Leagues still the centre of game development, along with TAC Cup.
The only AFL aligned players would be Rookie Listed Players. Strong senior competitions played in an even and fair competition. A fall back for those who don't make a main AFL List or a possibility for those who might also consider a career outside of football, but still want to play the game at a high level.

Get rid of State Junior Carnivals. Get rid of Foxtel Cup. Get rid of current Rookie List. Put a cap on football department spending. Money better spent on funding the above.

*Recruitment Zone encourages AFL clubs to also be active within their zone to help out State League teams with game development. Encourages cooperation between AFL and State Leagues.
Crows - Glenelg, Norwood, Sturt, South
Power - Port Magpies*, Eagles, North, Central, West
*PAFC to decide if they can fund both AFL, AFL Futures and SANFL teams.
All other 16 AFL clubs along similar lines in their respective states. A Victorian team to have Tasmania, if they don't get their own team.

There you have it. Every bit of Australia covered. More spots in an AFL environment for those just out of Under 18's. Allow the State Leagues to prosper, with an understanding they still play a significant role in the game of Australian Rules Football.

http://www.fairplayinternational.org/fa ... foILJIQ6M4

Fair competition
To enjoy the fruits of success it is not enough to win. Triumph must be scored by absolutely fair means and by honest and just play.

Equality
Competing on equal terms is essential in sport. Otherwise performance cannot be measured properly.

Integrity
Being honest and having strong moral principles are essential to fair play. Practicing sport within a sound ethical framework is vitally important if you aim to be a true champion.

David, appreciate you coming on here to help give the other side, even if I think your answers so far have been a bit light-on.
Can you answer this one here, or perhaps those meeting with him could pose it to David. Why would the AFL not be in favour of setting up this sort of proposal? Do the Crows think it is a reasonable idea, and if not, why not? - because it certainly seems to be a solution in everyone's interests, which the current proposals don't appear to be.

Posted this on the discussion thread, if it be posed to David

[areaman]

Currently the SANFL season finishes a week after the AFL.

If the AFL side were to miss finals but the SANFL team play in a Grand Final it would mean these players finishing 5 weeks later.

Clearly it would be ideal for all players to begin their break at the same time for pre season training purposes.

This raises 2 issues.
1. Would the AFL clubs be requesting the SANFL season finish earlier so to minimise the differences in breaks between pre season training?
2. Would the fitness standard required to play SANFL finals be the same as AFL finals. i.e. a player in the AFL side would delay surgery and play through injury for a chance to play in an AFL premiership. Would the same injury be treated identically for SANFL finals purposes or would the player be more likely to end their season early for surgery?

[Ecky]

As discussed in the other thread here http://www.safooty.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=38318&start=3361
will the AFC be requesting that reserves games are played at the same time as their AFL games? Or will having the reserves team play a day before or after be acceptable?

[tipper]

"Next year the SANFL will be funded by the Adelaide Oval arrangements and the transfer of the AFL licences."

so, on the above, the crows wont be paying the sanfl anything over and above the fees to buy their licence back? you cant count revenue from the adelaide oval deal (or any money made from footy park in the past). that is what happens when you are the landlord, you make money from your tenants via rent. cant see that is exactly generous towards the sanfl. you are buying your licence back, and renting a venue to play at. they are surely just costs associated with running your business.

what are adelaide expecting to pay to have their second side in the sanfl? put a number on it. there have been several figures bandied about, what is the official total?

"The estimated crowd figure was not part of our SANFL proposal and is not part of the financial model. But we believe a Crows team will attract crowds from 2000 to 6000."

you didnt answer the question. how do you arrive at this figure? what investigation was undertaken to arrive at a figure that would, at the upper limit, be the best crowd in the sanfl each week? regardless of whether it was in the proposal or not, how did you get the numbers? unless you can provide evidence to attest to your figures, we can only assume it is complete fantasy.

for the record, i am not against either the crows or power having their own reserves side. they are entitled to do what is best for their clubs. i just dont see why an entire 136 year old competition has to pay the price to help 2 teams from a different league. so far, none of the information has shown me that a benefit exists for the sanfl. its all just vague treats of it being detrimental if the reserves sides arent included, vs examples from interstate where reserves sides have shown that infact it is detrimental to include them.

the overriding reason the crows want to play in the sanfl (or infact the amateur league) is money. they wont have to pay for flights etc to play their "development" side somewhere more suited, like the vfl. you know that league interstate where they would get the opportunity to play against other afl listed players nearly every week.

[areaman]

Has the AFC conducted any market research to gauge the interest/intent of it's members in attending SANFL matches? If so what does this indicate?

The survey on this site suggests up to 25% of current SANFL fans may "walk" if the reserves team eventuates. Even if this figure is overstated and only 10% "walk" does the AFC think it can replace these lost fans through increased attendances?

[BrekkyDJ]

Will the Adelaide Crows be requesting that all their reserves games (if possible) be played at or near the same time as the AFL side?

[LPH]

Still waiting for your response to BOTH the following & the PM I sent you.

As such, I will repeat on THIS thread:

With respect, here are some concerns (whilst I still await your response to the PM sent, re: Market Research, Revenue Streams, etc.) with your response so far:

1. The AFL listed players are split for 2013 ONLY - next year they will play for their AFL aligned Club. So what that means is; players developed by Claremont, East Fremantle, etc. will no longer play for those clubs. So 'fringe' AFL players who play predominantly in the WAFL will be playing for Fremantle (Peel) & East Perth (West Coast). If we equate that to YOUR Club proposal, players such as Joncock, Vince, Petrenko, Taylor Walker (when coming back from injury) will play for the 'Ravens' not the Club that developed them - Integrity? Fairness of Competition?

2. You didn't answer the 'Crowds' question - so it's fair to assume you haven't checked. I will add that since Rob Chapman suggests an EXTRA 4000 will attend games - Will the Crows/Ravens make up the 'short fall' in revenue to South Adelaide, should only 1600 turn up to Noarlunga o a cold, windy, rainy day in August 2014?

3. Again, no answer in terms of Media Coverage - no doubt Channel 9's agreement with the SAAFL is an interesting development for you. Should you be forced to play in that competition, it might cause some issues for the AFL controlled& biased 7 Network & 5AA/3AW - PAFC may have a distinct advantage commercially, wouldn't you say?
4. Well answered.
5. The SANFL own you at present , so that money is a dividend to the 9 Clubs that own you is it not? - a bit like a franchise fee from a "Wendy's" or a "Jim's Mowing". Can I ask, do you lease the facilities or pay 'rent' to the SANFL for your use of the West Lakes 'precinct' (i.e. where your club is housed, where you generate income from the 'Shed', where you train? - If so, does this money come out of your $525 K?

[UK Fan]

David why do you currently allow players to develope in SANFL reserves like you have done for the last 22 years. When Amatuers is a better league for their developement ????

How many juniors playing A1 amatuers have developed into afl players as opposed to players who have developed playing sanfl reserves ?????

A recent poll conducted by SAFooty times stated over 60% of Central District members would either attend less or simply stop attending SANFL if Adelaide FC enters the league . How do you plan to replace 60% membership for a club ???? Cdfc generated $6 mill in revenue via catering bar pokies etc.... last year . With a forecasted 50-60% less patronage if your model is approved . What plans do you have in place to safeguard the potential $2 - $3 mill in revenue the club would lose with your entry into SANFL ??? Do you believe any board would be acting responsibly by risking $2- $3 mill loss in revenue for the good of you ????

What is your vision for SANFL in 3 5 and 10 years ??????

Would you agree to a rule whereby no club off field employees can represent your SANFL side ???? Ie nobody employed as a mentor, community ambassadors, any developement officer can play SANFL for you.

If your not bluffing why so hesitant to go to Ammos ??

As a communication officer What drove you to log on to this website when you have nothing really to offer ? Or haven't informed us anything we don't already know.

The crows have had 18 months to find a suitable solution to top up players and failed miserably. How long will you give the SANFL presidents to find you a suitable solution ??


I have Pmd you my contact details . I'm a decade long sponsor of central district FC. I am more than happy to discuss the above questions with u face to face. I await your reply

[RustyCage]

Why should the SANFL season be shortened just to accommodate your needs?

[CUTTERMAN]

David, if the AFC are so confident of 4000 Adelaide supporters attending their reserves games why refuse to cover the gate to assure the SANFL clubs don't run at a loss when the supporters don't turn up?
Adelaide cite the reasoning for a reserves team is to develop and retain their players and without this they will be at a disadvantage compared to the rest of the AFL comp. With that in mind do you think it is equitable that every other SANFL club will be at a disadvantage in the SANFL when Adelaide's reserves team will be outside the SANFL salary cap, not to mention the inability for the SANFL clubs to access recruiting from the same talent pool?
Is this not hypocritical of the AFC?
Have the AFC done ANY research of the possible repercussions of people walking away from the AFC, the SANFL and football in general due to the undermining of the SANFL with this proposal and its wider effect on football in this state?
As a side note and mentioned before. I have followed Adelaide since their inception, but if this goes ahead in the league comp I'll never support Adelaide again, I've written to Rob Chapman to voice this, obviously with no reply bar a generic email.

[Apachebulldog]

David has Triggy and the AFC researched what has happened in the WAFL and VFL ????

Have just read Brekky DJ comment re the crowd numbers when Box Hill Hawks played against Bendigo Gold approx 100 fans turned up on the weekend not good at all.

Bendigo Gold is going to fold up from what i hear.

Will the AFC pay the gate shortfall if the estimated 4,000 per game is not achieved ?????

How will the admittance of the Crows help Sturt and West Adelaide who are finacially stuffed and possibly some of the other clubs.

Can the Crows afford to pay up say a hypothetical $100,000 per year to the each SANFL club especially with their dwindling attendances ??????

There are just too many hypotheticals uncertainties enormous risk and potential to destroy the whole fabric of the SANFL.

[UK Fan]

And another;

If you want to be independent of the SANFL and cut your formal ownership ties with the league, why do you now want to join it? You do realise that this would have been far more consistent a position if you wanted to fully integrate with the league which currently owns you?

And given all of these questions which are unresolved, do you feel the SAFC have shown the appropriate amount of due dilligence in recommending your entry without clear answers being issued? From our angle, it just appears as though they are a rubber-stamp authority for whatever the Crows want.

[Ron Burgundy]

An unrelated question...

David, at 49, I think you still have a lot to offer to the Renmark Cricket Club. Will you come back, and go back off the long run, and let go of a few right arm thunderbolts.

[adelaidefc]

How can you 'play the line' when at times half or more of your side will be made up of 'ring ins' from other SANFL clubs or amateur leagues with no season long affiliation with your side?

The Club has gone back over the past five seasons and worked out how many top ups we would have needed and we don't believe this is an issue. Last weekend, for instance, we had a pretty long injury list and we would have needed six top-ups. For most of this season we would have needed two or three, and there have been a couple of weeks when nwe would have needed none or one. Whichever top up system gets approved, we will have a pool of about 16 to work with all season .
David

[adelaidefc]

Currently the SANFL season finishes a week after the AFL.

If the AFL side were to miss finals but the SANFL team play in a Grand Final it would mean these players finishing 5 weeks later.

Clearly it would be ideal for all players to begin their break at the same time for pre season training purposes.

This raises 2 issues.
1. Would the AFL clubs be requesting the SANFL season finish earlier so to minimise the differences in breaks between pre season training?
2. Would the fitness standard required to play SANFL finals be the same as AFL finals. i.e. a player in the AFL side would delay surgery and play through injury for a chance to play in an AFL premiership. Would the same injury be treated identically for SANFL finals purposes or would the player be more likely to end their season early for surgery?

The changes to the AFL off-season announced last week actually help with this issue. The longer leave breaks (especially for more senior players) mean that it can be planned for, particularly as you have a large group in the same situation. At the moment we might have one or two who get through to the last week in the SANFL while others might drop out over the previous three or four weeks, so there can be a range of return dates or players have considerably less of a break than some team-mates.

1: The SANFL will control their fixture, I'm not sure what they are planning
2: There will be no elective surgery for players in the reserves side until their season is over. Again, the longer breaks provide some flexibility.

[adelaidefc]

As discussed in the other thread here http://www.safooty.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=38318&start=3361
will the AFC be requesting that reserves games are played at the same time as their AFL games? Or will having the reserves team play a day before or after be acceptable?

Ideally our reserves side (in the SANFL) would play at a different time to the Crows side. Playing the day before or after would be acceptable I think, although I;m sure footy would like there to be some consideration to the timing of the following week's AFL game. For instance, if we had a Friday night AFL game you wouldn't want our reserves team playing on the previous Sunday.
David

[heater31]

This thread is for Questions and Answers only, no statements or other posts please, use the other thread for that. Hopefully it will avoid questions being answered twice etc.

[sjt]

David wrote:

1-4: The WA model is completely different. Freo are aligned to Peel Thunder and West Coast are aligned with East Perth but AFL-listed players are still spread across all the WAFL clubs, so there is not much relevance to us at this stage. The financial model in WA footy is also completely different to here. But for the right to align with clubs, I believe the total package is worth about $75k from each AFL club. The AFC has been asked to keep our figures confidential at this stage but it will not be too far off this and it is addition to any payments for the transfer of our AFL licence and the Adelaide Oval agreement.
5): We don’t pay a dividend to the SANFL any more, as we did for about 20 years. We pay a set licence fee, which is $525,000 this year. The financial cost of a reserve side will be a cost for the AFC, no-one else.

David

Sjt wrote;

Hi David

To help clarify the above am I right in interpreting it as, at the moment you pay a license fee of $525,000 or $58,333 per club (as stated). Or do the Magpies not receive this so it's closer to $65,000 per club? Under the proposal to be able to use the SANFL with a reserves team, clubs would receive approximately $75,000 equating to an increase of $16,000 (or $10,000) more than current situation or "not too far off this"? Despite Olsen saying $80,000 sounded like a to generous a figure on what's expected.
Obviously this excludes the payments for the licence transfer and the Adelaide Oval agreement as these are happening anyway.
$10,000 (pittance) doesn't sound too attractive to me, though it would look very attractive to the Crows.

So currently the Crows pay each Club about $65k as a license fee? Potentially going forward the Crows may pay the clubs $10,000 more? Time to rush in and change the fabric of SA football given that offer!!

David wrote

Is it an integrity issue or a financial issue, you're confusing me? I've sent some answers to more of your earlier questions to Dutchy to post in a separate thread but you are clearly underestimating the impact on SANFL revenue that the AFL and the AFL clubs have and will continue to have even when the AFL clubs are playing at Adelaide Oval. David

SJT wrote;
David, I'll have a clearer understanding if you answer the simple question above. It shouldn't be confusing and there's no point answering a question with a question. As to whether it's an integrity or financial issue - obviously both are issues that raise questions. I wouldn't have thought it was too confusing. P.S apologise for the formatting I had to cut and paste as the question wasn't answered in the previous thread