AFL Reserves Discussion...

[Harry the Horse]

This looks familiar . .

AFL Teams in the SANFL


As you would be aware, the SANFL and the League Clubs are currently in discussions around the possible inclusion of AFL ‘reserves’ teams from the Adelaide and Port Adelaide football clubs within the SANFL.

The potential transfer of the AFL Licences in the near future has been the catalyst for all parties to take this important opportunity to review our competition.

Although the negotiations are, by necessity, happening on a confidential basis, there is some information we believe it is important that you know.

The League Directors – including our President Nick Chigwidden - have been working with the SANFL to arrive at four guiding principles which form the basis for all negotiations around this issue.

These guiding principles have been agreed to by all clubs and the SANFL as non-negotiable elements and can be summarised as:
1.Integrity: Any change in competition structure must maintain or enhance the integrity of the SANFL competition;
2.Relevance: Any change in competition structure must maintain or enhance the relevance of the SANFL competition as the best State League in Australia;
3.SANFL & SANFL Club Viability: Any change to the competition structure must improve the long term strength and sustainability of the SANFL and SANFL Clubs; and
4.Game Development: Any change to the competition structure must enhance the development of the game at all levels across South Australia.



As you can see from the above, the SANFL and the SANFL clubs are steadfast in our resolve that the SANFL competition must be protected, it must remain relevant, it must be viable and that game development through the SANFL competition must continue to be of the utmost importance.

This is a complex issue. There are many positives and negatives to adding additional teams to our competition, and each of these is being carefully analysed and discussed.

Once negotiations have reached their conclusion, the SA Football Commission will make a recommendation for the SANFL League Directors to consider. Nothing can happen without the authority of the League Directors.

I would like to underline that we at Glenelg in consultation with the SANFL and the other clubs – will make the decision that is in the best interests of our club, our members, our league and the South Australian football community.

I hope to see you at Gliderol Stadium this Sunday when we take on the Bloods!

Rob Nelson

Rob_Nelson_Signature_2_copy

Chief Executive Officer

[TimmiesChin]

"Thomas said history was on the club’s side.

“In 1996, the SANFL Clubs chose not to allow Port Adelaide to leave the local competition to pursue its AFL ambition, fearing that the SANFL simply would not be the same without the Magpies. Today we are presenting the same argument."

The above statement is WRONG. In 1996 the clubs wanted to kick Port out - the SANFL and Port had to convince them otherwise, emphasising that the SANFL and AFL Ports would be separate entities.

This knowledge is common to anyone who was following the SANFL in 1996, or to anyone who has the brains to do a little research of the media at the time. Producing a piece of misinformation, proclaiming it as fact, and using it to bolster his case indicates that Thomas is a bona-fide goose. He would do his club a favour by ShuttingTFU.

If that's the case, I'm sure you can quickly dig up the evidence supporting your argument.

I'd say Thomas had proved ten times over he is less of a goose than your good self if his resume is anything to go by.

[Pseudo]

"Thomas said history was on the club’s side.

“In 1996, the SANFL Clubs chose not to allow Port Adelaide to leave the local competition to pursue its AFL ambition, fearing that the SANFL simply would not be the same without the Magpies. Today we are presenting the same argument."

The above statement is WRONG. In 1996 the clubs wanted to kick Port out - the SANFL and Port had to convince them otherwise, emphasising that the SANFL and AFL Ports would be separate entities.

This knowledge is common to anyone who was following the SANFL in 1996, or to anyone who has the brains to do a little research of the media at the time. Producing a piece of misinformation, proclaiming it as fact, and using it to bolster his case indicates that Thomas is a bona-fide goose. He would do his club a favour by ShuttingTFU.

If that's the case, I'm sure you can quickly dig up the evidence supporting your argument.

I'd say Thomas had proved ten times over he is less of a goose than your good self if his resume is anything to go by.

A search of the newstext archives turned up the following header:

West boss calls for Port to pull out of SANFL Eagles silent
The Advertiser, 14-12-1994, Ed: 2 - Metro, Pg: 030, 655 words ,
Dion McCaffrie, newly-elected president of four-club cartel member West Adelaide, has called for Port to leave the SANFL when it joins the national competition. And North Adelaide general manager Jamie Coppins, spokesman for the cartel which promoted...


I do not care to download the full article (at a price). I'm sure that you will chase down a copy of the article yourself - and other similar articles published at the same time - as you seem to be keen to fill the holes in your knowledge.

Hope that was quick enough for you. Now go and wipe the goose egg off your face.

[CUTTERMAN]

I can only see this starting to get very ugly at SANFL games for the rest of the year and next year. Weslo will be busy.
Glenelg host the the Ragpies possibly for the last game of SANFL as we know it, hopefully the SANFL schedule it as a stand alone game so we can all get down there and back in the Bays.

[Macca19]

It is true that the original plan was for the 2nd licence winner to leave the SANFL and that had to be part of the tender proposal. Port were the only club that debated that the 2nd licence winner should stay in the SANFL. The other clubs once Port won the licence wanted Port removed from the competition.

Its a common misconception.

[TimmiesChin]

A search of the newstext archives turned up the following header:

West boss calls for Port to pull out of SANFL Eagles silent
The Advertiser, 14-12-1994, Ed: 2 - Metro, Pg: 030, 655 words ,
Dion McCaffrie, newly-elected president of four-club cartel member West Adelaide, has called for Port to leave the SANFL when it joins the national competition. And North Adelaide general manager Jamie Coppins, spokesman for the cartel which promoted...


I do not care to download the full article (at a price). I'm sure that you will chase down a copy of the article yourself - and other similar articles published at the same time - as you seem to be keen to fill the holes in your knowledge.

Hope that was quick enough for you. Now go and wipe the goose egg off your face.

If you had taken a bit more time you would have realized that you had cited an article from 94, not 96, in fact you cite an article from the exact day that Port won the second license.
It could hardly be a SANFL wide club agreement at that point in time, especially when the person cited was a member of the four club cartel that was trying to do the same thing.... I'm guessing his face was looking remarkable similar to Nerrio Ferraro's at the time.
I wonder what number crunching of crowd figures occurred over the ensuing two years

Look, I have no idea what the deal was back then, did the license agreement say the club would need to leave, did the SANFL clubs want them out (in 96) etc, all I know is Keith Thomas and Port administrators have mentioned this same thing numerous times, and at no point have I seen or heard any form of dis-proof of their comments. And I suspect everyone else in these forums is in the same boat.

[TimmiesChin]

It is true that the original plan was for the 2nd licence winner to leave the SANFL and that had to be part of the tender proposal. Port were the only club that debated that the 2nd licence winner should stay in the SANFL. The other clubs once Port won the licence wanted Port removed from the competition.

Its a common misconception.

Imagine if the 4 team cartel had won ... they all would have had to leave.

[TimmiesChin]

I can only see this starting to get very ugly at SANFL games for the rest of the year and next year. Weslo will be busy.
Glenelg host the the Ragpies possibly for the last game of SANFL as we know it, hopefully the SANFL schedule it as a stand alone game so we can all get down there and back in the Bays.

Last time that happened was probably the 1990 SANFL GF.....

[saintal]

3000 extra people what have you been smoking Chapman? Getting that Shonk Trigg (Who should have been sacked)to do the figures again.

Chapman can't be serious can he?

FE, sorry if you've been asked this before, but what impact crowd wise have the alignments had on the WAFL? i.e when Claremont host either Peel or the Royals have the crowds differed a lot from prior years? What has happened to Peel and East Perth home crowds? What about mainstream media coverage?

[Macca19]

3000 extra people what have you been smoking Chapman? Getting that Shonk Trigg (Who should have been sacked)to do the figures again.

Chapman can't be serious can he?

FE, sorry if you've been asked this before, but what impact crowd wise have the alignments had on the WAFL? i.e when Claremont host either Peel or the Royals have the crowds differed a lot from prior years? What has happened to Peel and East Perth home crowds? What about mainstream media coverage?

Average WAFL crowd to R13 2012 - 2133
Average WAFL crowd to R13 2013 - 2161

[Pseudo]

It is true that the original plan was for the 2nd licence winner to leave the SANFL and that had to be part of the tender proposal. Port were the only club that debated that the 2nd licence winner should stay in the SANFL. The other clubs once Port won the licence wanted Port removed from the competition.

Its a common misconception.

I'm afraid I suffer from that misconception Macca.

My memory is that the SANFL pronounced a list of conditions that the winning bid would satisfy. These conditions included keeping a presence in the SANFL. Other conditions included reducing the number of teams in the SANFL, ideally through a merger.

As I recall the Sturt/Norwood bid was the only one which satisfied all conditions. The Eagles/cartel bid was the only one which advocated a complete secession from the SANFL. Certainly at some point Port advertised a desire to remain in the SANFL. Bucky Cunningham is on record saying this some time before the tendering process, although I do not know what ended up in the actual tender document.

[FOURTH ESTATE]

3000 extra people what have you been smoking Chapman? Getting that Shonk Trigg (Who should have been sacked)to do the figures again.

Chapman can't be serious can he?

FE, sorry if you've been asked this before, but what impact crowd wise have the alignments had on the WAFL? i.e when Claremont host either Peel or the Royals have the crowds differed a lot from prior years? What has happened to Peel and East Perth home crowds? What about mainstream media coverage?

Not sure on crowd impact will have to have a look for you and reply but locals are restless with what is happening over there. Hope to talk to some Claremont officials when they come to town for foxtel cup game for more in-depth answers

[FOURTH ESTATE]

Looked up attendance figures for matches between Claremont and East Perth & Peel Thunder in 2012 and so far in 2013
Medibank Stadium is East Perth new home ground which they share with Subiaco. It used to be West Perth's home ground Leederville Oval. East Perth's home ground has been taken over by Perth Glory from memory. Bendigo Bank Stadium is Peel Thunder's home ground in Mandurah where they play.

2012

R2 Claremont v East Perth Claremont Oval 2035

R9 Peel Thunder v Claremont Bendigo Bank Stadium 1309

R11 Claremont v Peel Thunder Claremont Oval 1352

R12 East Perth v Claremont Medibank Stadium 1857

R21 Claremont v Peel Thunder Claremont Oval 1208


2013

R4 East Perth v Claremont Medibank Stadium 1847

R7 Peel Thunder v Claremont Bendigo Bank Stadium 1469

R13 Claremont v Peel Thunder Claremont Oval 1254

Crowd about the same next season will tell the story when all Eagles & Dockers are aligned to their new clubs.

[BrekkyDJ]

The decision over enter ting the Crows and Power some way into the SANFL poses a very simple question:

Does the SANFL want to be a 2nd tier competition (reserves) or an Alternative to the AFL?

If the first option, it will forever be seen as a reserves comp (like the current VFL) and over a period of time the traditional clubs will die.
Why? Because the next generation of supporters will grow up to only follow the Crows or the Power and not the Centrals or Wests of the comp.

If the 2nd, the cannot stay as they are (an 8 or 9 team comp), I see a plan that might hurt a little financially in the short term, but could pay off big time in the long run.


The alternative option

Like the then VFL (now AFL) approached some SA clubs to join them, the SANFL needs to turn the tables and ask the traditional VFA club to join them in a South Eastern National Football League.

To keep travelling costs down, the clubs would be split into two conferences, just like with the Australia-New Zealand Netball League.

In a 22 round system, the SA and Vic clubs play their own sides twice (7x2 = 14) and play against each of the other state's sides once (8)... however they would have 4 at home and 4 interstate. A perfectly balanced and fair draw, while keeping costs down.

SANFL VFL

West Adelaide Port Melbourne
South Adelaide Williamstown
Norwood Frankston
Glenelg North Ballarat
Centrals Coburg
Sturt Werribee
North Adelaide Sandringham
WWT Eagles Casey

At the end of the home and away, the highest finishing SANFL and VFL clubs are handed their 'league premiership'.
The top 8 sides (from a combined ladder) battle out the finals.

Now, how does this league become an alternative to the AFL?

The first step, is spending a few dollars. The old VFA use to have a few marquee players that should have played VFL/AFL, but stuck in the VFA for the $$$.

All it needs is 2 or 3 'defections' from the AFL (nearing the end of their career) that can kick goals - see Brendan Fevola and his antics in the bush... it's pulling in the crowd... bigger than current VFL and SANFL crowds.

Naturally, since the AFL have 18 clubs, there's a better chance of more 'blow out' games... they make crap TV.

With 16 sides, there's a better chance of a more even game in the SANFL/VFL.

A combined SANFL/VFL can approach channel nine and say 'hey, you've got NRL on in NSW/QLD, we can fill your TV schedule in Vic/SA' - an attractive option for a TV network.

Now if you have a couple of Fevola type characters kicking goals, crowds slowly going up, and closer games (more TV friendly), the instead of TV channels asking you to pay for coverage, they'll invest in the SANFL/VFL.

WHY? For example, if they have an 'alternative' league to the AFL (with no AFL reserves) Channel Nine for a cheaper investment can hurt the ratings (a small nick, nothing big, but noticeable) and the Billion dollar investment of Seven/Foxtel.

Tell me. If you were at home watching TV and the AFL was on and you saw Hawthorn smashing GWS, but on another channel, Sturt was locked in a one goal the difference game with Williamstown, which would you watch?

Like I said, create a two state alternative (even invite a Tassie side - their state league is stuffed) and soon or later someone with enough $$$ that doesn't like the AFL will come along and pour the money in and go to war.

It's happened before... World Series Cricket... the SuperLeague/ARL war... just needs the right issue to light the match.



But that's just my ideal ramblings

[FOURTH ESTATE]

A bit of merit in that idea I don't mind it could get some bigger crowds. Image Fev at the Bay decent crowd turnout I would image.

He spoke at our club last night very interesting fellow. Just look at the crowds at Yarralonga home games and away.

[kickinit]

wasn't the VFL and WAFL teams already established teams taken over by the AFL teams? I can understand if the crows took over sturt how that could have a impact for sturt fans. But if the crows come in as their own team and the power with the magpies, whats the matter for the other clubs fans. If your team is still playing for a premiership and your not going to support them, then really your nothing but a pathetic supporter. Most of you are sitting here asking why havent the power and crows come out and answered this and that question, do you actually realise that they haven't had the chance to put forward a proposal to the SANFL clubs, and because of this we will not know those answer until they have had this chance. As much as rucci thinks he knows, no one actually knows what the proposal is going to be. And this is the reason why no club at the moment can say yes or no.

[whufc]

wasn't the VFL and WAFL teams already established teams taken over by the AFL teams? I can understand if the crows took over sturt how that could have a impact for sturt fans. But if the crows come in as their own team and the power with the magpies, whats the matter for the other clubs fans. If your team is still playing for a premiership and your not going to support them, then really your nothing but a pathetic supporter. Most of you are sitting here asking why havent the power and crows come out and answered this and that question, do you actually realise that they haven't had the chance to put forward a proposal to the SANFL clubs, and because of this we will not know those answer until they have had this chance. As much as rucci thinks he knows, no one actually knows what the proposal is going to be. And this is the reason why no club at the moment can say yes or no.

Maybe just maybe they dont want to see their side compete against sides with a much larger salary cap, much richer resources, having an unfair off field advantage and whose number one priority is player development with winning being a by product if it happens.

Maybe they dont wont to see players their clubs have spent years of development and money on be taken in the draft (which doesnt give SANFL clubs a chance) and then used against them in games for premiership points.

Maybe they dont want to stand at the footy and listen to opposition supporters sit there and yell out comments like "Who cares its only our reserves sides, you wouldnt get close to our real team" (yes thats the most common sledge i have heard in the many VFL games i have attended.

Maybe the pathetic supporters are the ones who cant think or feel for themselves and blindly follow their club regardless of any decisions they make.

Like i said in another thread.

Would you stay with your misses if she went and screwed some rich dude for coin? Or would it be pathetic if you left her.

[dedja]

[kickinit]

The decision over enter ting the Crows and Power some way into the SANFL poses a very simple question:

Does the SANFL want to be a 2nd tier competition (reserves) or an Alternative to the AFL?

If the first option, it will forever be seen as a reserves comp (like the current VFL) and over a period of time the traditional clubs will die.
Why? Because the next generation of supporters will grow up to only follow the Crows or the Power and not the Centrals or Wests of the comp.

If the 2nd, the cannot stay as they are (an 8 or 9 team comp), I see a plan that might hurt a little financially in the short term, but could pay off big time in the long run.


The alternative option

Like the then VFL (now AFL) approached some SA clubs to join them, the SANFL needs to turn the tables and ask the traditional VFA club to join them in a South Eastern National Football League.

To keep travelling costs down, the clubs would be split into two conferences, just like with the Australia-New Zealand Netball League.

In a 22 round system, the SA and Vic clubs play their own sides twice (7x2 = 14) and play against each of the other state's sides once (8)... however they would have 4 at home and 4 interstate. A perfectly balanced and fair draw, while keeping costs down.

SANFL VFL

West Adelaide Port Melbourne
South Adelaide Williamstown
Norwood Frankston
Glenelg North Ballarat
Centrals Coburg
Sturt Werribee
North Adelaide Sandringham
WWT Eagles Casey

At the end of the home and away, the highest finishing SANFL and VFL clubs are handed their 'league premiership'.
The top 8 sides (from a combined ladder) battle out the finals.

Now, how does this league become an alternative to the AFL?

The first step, is spending a few dollars. The old VFA use to have a few marquee players that should have played VFL/AFL, but stuck in the VFA for the $$$.

All it needs is 2 or 3 'defections' from the AFL (nearing the end of their career) that can kick goals - see Brendan Fevola and his antics in the bush... it's pulling in the crowd... bigger than current VFL and SANFL crowds.

Naturally, since the AFL have 18 clubs, there's a better chance of more 'blow out' games... they make crap TV.

With 16 sides, there's a better chance of a more even game in the SANFL/VFL.

A combined SANFL/VFL can approach channel nine and say 'hey, you've got NRL on in NSW/QLD, we can fill your TV schedule in Vic/SA' - an attractive option for a TV network.

Now if you have a couple of Fevola type characters kicking goals, crowds slowly going up, and closer games (more TV friendly), the instead of TV channels asking you to pay for coverage, they'll invest in the SANFL/VFL.

WHY? For example, if they have an 'alternative' league to the AFL (with no AFL reserves) Channel Nine for a cheaper investment can hurt the ratings (a small nick, nothing big, but noticeable) and the Billion dollar investment of Seven/Foxtel.

Tell me. If you were at home watching TV and the AFL was on and you saw Hawthorn smashing GWS, but on another channel, Sturt was locked in a one goal the difference game with Williamstown, which would you watch?

Like I said, create a two state alternative (even invite a Tassie side - their state league is stuffed) and soon or later someone with enough $$$ that doesn't like the AFL will come along and pour the money in and go to war.

It's happened before... World Series Cricket... the SuperLeague/ARL war... just needs the right issue to light the match.



But that's just my ideal ramblings

If the sanfl has 2 afl reserves sides or not will not be the reason why kids won't follow sanfl football. The sanfl will always be a second rate comp compared to the AFL, the SANFL can never compete with AFL on a performance level. The SANFL need to market to families, which in turn will get young kids involved in supporting a local team. This deal will get in on this, the SANFl will say they can't afford to do this while the AFL team will offer to pay for it.

[Dutchy]

Another scenario, Crows player gets delisted after they miss the finals in the AFL but the reserves team is top 3 and will go deep into the SANFL finals. This player believes he is a chance to get redrafted to another club and therefore does not wish to risk an injury playing reserves finals for a club that no longer wants him so he pulls out. This could occur to 4-5 players in the team making it a farce.