Federal Government proposes a price on carbon.

[Interceptor]

PS: In an earlier post I said this:

My other concern is the focus on CO2 while we ignore other issues, like fine carbon particles and incompletely burned hydrocarbons as by-products of using diesel fuel, including bio-diesel.
Some of these are probable carcinogens - the medical literature is divided at present and there is some dispute.

I'm gratified to note that the WHO has now rated diesel fumes at the same level of carcinogenicity as Asbestos.
We make a lot of fuss about dealing with Asbestos, but where is the rush of politicians doing something similar about this one.

The few pollies I've spoken to about it have just looked away and not commented.
I guess it looks expensive and unpopular, so health is secondary in this case of carbon compound pollution..

Fortunately we haven't had diesel vehicles pushed on motorists like in Europe.
I know that the standard of diesel (and hence the emissions) has been improved over the years (I guess that WHO assessment includes modern diesel), but with their heavy diesel apoption, the Europeans might have made another big mistake.
Unfortunately nearly all trucks, older buses and a fair number of 4WDs run on diesel here.
Can't see that changing for trucks much, only stricter controls put on the emissions.

[mick]

As the owner of a modern diesel car, this (carcinogenic exhaust) is very worrying since in many regards modern diesels are an alternative to hybrids and petrol engines - as they are powerful and have great engine flexibility as a result of high torque at low revs. I believe that the amount of CO2 thay emit is less than similiar power petrol. The article below suggests that many of the problems of old diesels including carcinogens in the exhaust have been largely overcome. Scientific American is not a peer reviewed, but publishes factual information for the interested non expert.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=clean-diesel-comes-of-age

[Psyber]

Here are a few references:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-06-13/d ... ho/4068340
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_exh ... components
http://au.search.yahoo.com/search?fr=yf ... s&ei=UTF-8

The diesel fuel industry has been fighting the carcinogens in diesel fumes issue for a long time.
It has been rather like the tobacco industry's resistance after the first articles linking smoking with heart disease appeared in "The Lancet" in the early 1900s.

Modern diesel engines reduce particulate emissions - if they are well maintained - but they often are not because of costs..
However, logic dictates that the more complex the fuel you burn the more complex the organics in the exhaust are going to be, as no engine burns everything completely.
We have overlooked that in our tunnel vision - pre-occupied with CO2..

There is only one clean fuel - hydrogen - but we need cheap electricity to extract it from sea water economically, and the CO2 pre-occupation is driving electricity costs up not down.
Safe versions of nuclear power may reverse that, and massively reduce CO2 output at the same time, once we get over the nuclear hang up left over from unsafe old technology.

India has mooted a nuclear car option and so have some other countries: http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/technology- ... 42766.html

I like this bit, "It's worth noting, though, that the element exhibits little radioactivity. So little, that it can be contained easily by something as ordinary as aluminum foil."

[Jimmy_041]

It is times like this, I miss R&B
I said this would happen and he called me an elitist something or other
I would have thought Gozu would have posted this, but alas no.........

Australian Broadcasting Corporation
Broadcast: 18/07/2012
Reporter: Matthew Carney
An increase in poker machine revenue coinciding with the first carbon tax compensation payments has sparked calls for the payments to be in credit, not cash.

Transcript
TONY JONES, PRESENTER: Evidence has emerged that cash hand-outs from the Government as compensation for the carbon tax are being spent on the pokies.

Queensland and New South Wales data shows a surge in poker machine revenue at the same time as cash started to flow to mainly lower-income earners in May and June.

The revelation has sparked a furious debate with calls for the compensation to be paid as credit rather than cash.

But the Government says the vast majority of people are spending the money on essentials.

Matthew Carney reports.

MATTHEW CARNEY, REPORTER: In May and June, families and pensioners received millions of dollars from the Federal Government's $14 billion package to help offset the cost of the carbon tax. Figures from the Queensland Office of Liquor and Gaming Regulation show a spike in poker machine revenue for that same period.

In May, earnings increased by 7 per cent, and in June, the increase was larger at almost 12 per cent. The liquor and gaming regulator says it's not sure what caused the increase.

But Keith Delacy from the Reef Casino in Cairns says revenues always surge when the Government hands out cash.

KEITH DELACY, REEF CASINO: I have no doubt there's more money spent on the pokies. Every time there's a cash ... a broad-based cash hand-out from the government, there's an increase in revenue at all of the gaming venues. I'm not sure what they expected. People spend their money the way they see fit.

MATTHEW CARNEY: In New South Wales, gaming machine revenue increased by 4.2 per cent in May, and 5.5 per cent in June. Other states are yet to release figures. Nick Xenophon says the Government should consider changing the way the carbon tax compensation is paid.

NICK XENOPHON, INDEPENDENT SENATOR: This is meant to be a compensation package for the carbon tax, not something that will unjustly enrich pokies operators. Not something that is seen by some as an electoral bribe. If the Government is serious about this being a compensation package, then it ought to be done in a different way and that could involve having rebates on electricity bills - more targeted, more directed, more effective.

MATTHEW CARNEY: Assistant Treasurer David Bradbury has defended the Government's compensation payments, saying the vast majority of the pay-outs have been spent on essential items.

DAVID BRADBURY, ASSISTANT TREASURER: I understand that most of the data that's been relied upon has come from Queensland. And indeed, there are some seasonal anomalies there, given the fact that many clubs this time last year were not operational as a result of the floods.

MATTHEW CARNEY: Gambling addiction expert Dr Charles Livingston says the problem is not easy access to cash, but easy access to high-impact poker machines.

CHARLES LIVINGSTON, MONASH UNIVERSITY: You can walk down to the local pub or club and you can lose $1,200 an hour. And that's what this illustrates more than anything else - the need to implement effective regulation of poker machines so that this sort of expenditure is not something that happens every day in every Australian suburb.

MATTHEW CARNEY: Clubs Australia says there's no evidence of a nationwide boom in poker machine revenue, and points out that the figures for June covered five weekends. However, big poker machine operators Coles and Echo Entertainment reporter stronger gaming revenues in both May and June this year.

[Q.]

Also coincides with interest rate cuts.

[Psyber]

Also coincides with interest rate cuts.

It should be possible to analyse the patterns and see whether the timing of the peaks corresponds with the rate cuts or with the cash hand outs.
Does anyone here have a source of raw data?

[Q.]

http://www.crikey.com.au/2012/07/19/carbon-combo-being-fed-into-pokies-nothing-but-a-beat-up/

[Psyber]

That seems to make a fair case Q. I'll read it in more detail later.
To help out in the fight against CO2 emissions and the carcinogens in diesel fuel I want one of these: http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/technology- ... 42766.html

[fish]

C-Day today ... Chicken Little day

LOL the price on carbon has been in place for over a month now and the sky is yet to fall on our heads!

However one person who has had the sky fall on his head is Brumby's Managing Director Deane Priest, who has resigned after suggesting Brumby's stores raise prices and then blame it on the carbon tax.

Read about it here

[bulldogproud2]

Also, Abbott is really appearing like an idiot now. Blaming electricity price rises that have been occurring for a number of years now on the Carbon Tax which has only been in for one month - even fighting with his own Ministers over his statements lol

[fish]

Also, Abbott is really appearing like an idiot now. Blaming electricity price rises that have been occurring for a number of years now on the Carbon Tax which has only been in for one month - even fighting with his own Ministers over his statements lol

Good get bulldogproud2:

Coalition disunity in power price blame game

Opposition Leader Tony Abbott is at odds with several of his frontbenchers over the causes of higher electricity prices.

Tony Abbott was accused on Thursday of ignoring facts for political gain after describing the energy regulator's position on what is driving power prices as a "furphy".

Mr Abbott said it was a fabrication for the Prime Minister to suggest power prices are rising because the states are over-investing in power infrastructure.

He says the carbon tax is to blame for rising electricity costs.

But Opposition energy spokesman Ian Macfarlane has admitted state government spending on the poles and wires of electricity networks has pushed power prices higher.

And the former opposition leader, frontbencher Malcolm Turnbull, agrees with that position.

"There is no doubt the bulk of the reason for the 50 per cent, or thereabouts, increase in electricity prices for example in New South Wales over the last few years has been because of investments in poles and wires basically in the transmission and distribution networks," he said.

[Sky Pilot]

The carbon tax is a ripper. It will bring the Labor government down, dilute the influence the flaky leftie Greens have and help restore sense to the treasury benches with actual managers with intelligence in charge. Hilariously it won't have any effect on carbon emissions, green house gases, fundamental global warming nonsense or anything else.

[Sojourner]

But Opposition energy spokesman Ian Macfarlane has admitted state government spending on the poles and wires of electricity networks has pushed power prices higher.

This would be the State Owned QLD and NSW Networks with the money spent by the State ALP parties Fish?

[dedja]

As someone who has worked in the power industry, I can hopefully add some context to the discussion.

The current regulated national energy market was instigated by the Keating government, with bodies set up to govern and operate the market, now known as the Australian Energy Regular (AER) and Australian Energy Market Operator (AEMO).

The state government up until that time had massively under invested in preventative and asset maintenance of their respective power assets, instead using the 'profits' to supplement general revenue. This is also true of other utilities, such as gas and water.

The idea was that a regulated market would attract the appropriate commercial investment to maintain and operate power assets on a national level, whilst at the same time breaking the 'conflict of interest' nexus of the states.

Some states sold (or in SA's case, 199 year leases!) the power assets whilst others (NSW) kept them in state ownership.

The AER is supposed to set energy pricing for participants and ensure adherence to legislation. It is statutory body wholly financed by the Commonwealth.

AEMO manages the energy operators and systems.

In spite of all this, the participants (generation, transmission, distribution, retail) all price gauge to ensure maximum return the their investors. The AER has been a wet sponge and basically rubber stamps the funding requests of the participants.

Part of this price gauging has been the 'future proofing' of participants against the (then) introduction of the carbon tax. The impact of the carbon tax has been incorporated into the power supply chain way before it became law this year.

So the large price increases we all see have been a product of past lack of investment by the states, price gauging by the participants, indirect and direct effect of the carbon tax.

Whilst the federal government may on the face it be correct in stating that the states are largely to blame for the majority of the price increases, it is in fact the federal government who are largely to blame for:

1. setting up the regulatory market that now operates
2. creating and funding a piss weak regular to govern the market
3. fostering an inflationary environment indirectly through carbon tax speculation and directly by the carbon tax

The end result of this mess is that we as consumers pay for the federal and state governments mistakes ... unless you have installed solar (like I have) in which the non-solar consumers are being screwed again to subsidise the solar rebates and feed in tariffs.

What a fine mess indeed!

[fish]

...global warming nonsense...

Sky Pilot if you think global warming is nonsense you must be looking at the global temperature chart upside down!

Here it is, right way up:

[southee]

Nice chart Fish.

Yes, Australia's price on carbon will solve it.

Will decrease from now.

[fish]

But Opposition energy spokesman Ian Macfarlane has admitted state government spending on the poles and wires of electricity networks has pushed power prices higher.

This would be the State Owned QLD and NSW Networks with the money spent by the State ALP parties Fish?

Don't know much about Qld and NSW, but here in SA the carbon price will only account for around a quarter of the expected rise here in SA according to this article.

[fish]

Nice chart Fish.

Yes, Australia's price on carbon will solve it.

Will decrease from now.

Southee if you think or expect that Australia, or any single country, can solve the global climate change problem alone you are sadly mistaken.

[Psyber]

Actually, fish, while I do now agree with you that there is an important human contribution on top of the natural Milankovitch Cycle, as I've posted here before after we debated it, the chart above is a bit dubious as proof, and it is a bit superficial to trot it out as proving anything. I know you have other more convincing data - just not as pretty.

I say "dubious" and "superficial" because it runs from the end of the Little Ice Age, in the late 19th century, till now, and would probably look like it does regardless of any human contribution.
I know you know that, so play fair.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mini_ice_age

The Little Ice Age (LIA) was a period of cooling that occurred after the Medieval Warm Period (Medieval Climate Optimum).[1]
While it was not a true ice age, the term was introduced into the scientific literature by François E. Matthes in 1939.[2]
It may be conventionally defined as a period extending from the 16th to the 19th centuries

[Sky Pilot]

...global warming nonsense...

Sky Pilot if you think global warming is nonsense you must be looking at the global temperature chart upside down!

Here it is, right way up:

Jesus H Christ that is a scary graph. I'm shaking in my boots. Are we talking one degree over 120 years?