(Miscellaneous debris)

[redandblack]

Again, I agree with a lot of that, dedja.

I also agree with you that the Coalition's refugee policy is morally disgusting, but we part when you say they have a right to play hard-ball politics over it. Yes, they have that right, but the're wrong to do so, as the appear to have no priority towards finding a policy that is humanitarian. Nauru is most likely illegal under current law, but nobody mentions that.

As for policies, the Govt has faced a minority situation for the first time (in living memory/ever?), they have passed over 250 pieces of legislation, including a climate change policy that brought down several previous PM's and Leaders. They're being judged as if they had a majority. If they had, Malaysia would be in effect now. Does anyone seriously think Mr Abbott would handle minoritt government better?

[Gozu]

It would be nice if you would stop verballing me.

Thanks for the definition. As I said, it fits perfectly with the positions of the Coalition and the Greens, they are refusing to moderate their position as I said, so what point are you making? "I thought you were better than that, R & B' -

I posted that this situation doesn't reflect well on any party, so why drag the 'hollow men' of the Labor Party into m argument?

I've said on many occasions that I disagree with both major parties positions on this issue and I seem to be one of the few who consistently discusses the humanitarian aspect of this, and yet I'm supposed to be politicising it for disagreeing that Mr Abbott is 100% correct and is only concerned for the refugees' safety?

First time I've entered the fray, have you confused me with Jimmy?

Drop the whole "radical centrist" schtick, the point I'm making is because you're a devoted Labor supporter you seem incapable or unwilling to see anything from someone else's point of view. Remember when Labor supported off-shore processing? Kicked to the curb in the urge to appeal to the racists & bigots (otherwise known as the 'Lindsay Test').

Your party is in govt and you're still acting like Labor are in opposition. No it doesn't reflect well on the ALP trying to play politics with asylum seekers.

[dedja]

Nauru is almost guaranteed to be illegal under current legislation, hence my comment regarding the coalition must agree to pass the legislative changes required to make offshore processing legal.

Also, I'm not condoning Abbott's behaviour as I think he is morally devoid, but politically (rightly or wrongly) he is within bounds.

[redandblack]

Agreed, dedja.

Gozu, I wasn't confusing you with Jimmy, I was just confused why you would think that saying they were intransigent was such a crime?

All I've done on this thread is to defend the Government trying to compromise. As far as I recall, I haven't argued in favour of their policy, just that trying to compromise is reasonable. Why I alone should be accused of being partisan because of that is beyond me.

Perhaps I should join the politically pure on here who profess no bias

[Gozu]

Agreed, dedja.

Gozu, I wasn't confusing you with Jimmy, I was just confused why you would think that saying they were intransigent was such a crime?

All I've done on this thread is to defend the Government trying to compromise. As far as I recall, I haven't argued in favour of their policy, just that trying to compromise is reasonable. Why I alone should be accused of being partisan because of that is beyond me.

Perhaps I should join the politically pure on here who profess no bias

Yes I know you're a Labor Party defender/apologist, I'm a lefty not a party hack

[redandblack]

I thought you were better than that, Gozu

Apologists? Party hacks? You're right, the only party members on here that we know about are Liberals and I respect them for that, but they and I had better race to that morally pure political ground you inhabit, oh wise one

(I was looking for a bigger 'wink' emoticon, Gozu, as I appreciated your wink

[Gozu]

I thought you were better than that, Gozu

Apologists? Party hacks? You're right, the only party members on here that we know about are Liberals and I respect them for that, but they and I had better race to that morally pure political ground you inhabit, oh wise one

(I was looking for a bigger 'wink' emoticon, Gozu, as I appreciated your wink

I don't sign over my ability to think for myself to a party and then pump out their lines ad nauseam if that leaves me as "inhabiting morally pure political ground", so be it

[redandblack]

Classing other people on here as party hacks and apologists, or saying they've signed over the ability to think and only pump out party lines ad nauseum does tend to sound just a bit superior, Gozu.

I'm not a member of any party and I'm happy to argue a case on the facts, just as some on here who make no secret of their party membership are well able to mount logical and good arguments.

Having a bias (as we all do, whether we think so or not), is pretty normal for a Politics Forum and doesn't make anyone a party hack,

Would you like a definition of 'derogatory'?

[Jimmy_041]

Again, I agree with a lot of that, dedja.

I also agree with you that the Coalition's refugee policy is morally disgusting, but we part when you say they have a right to play hard-ball politics over it. Yes, they have that right, but the're wrong to do so, as the appear to have no priority towards finding a policy that is humanitarian. Nauru is most likely illegal under current law, but nobody mentions that.

As for policies, the Govt has faced a minority situation for the first time (in living memory/ever?), they have passed over 250 pieces of legislation, including a climate change policy that brought down several previous PM's and Leaders. They're being judged as if they had a majority. If they had, Malaysia would be in effect now. Does anyone seriously think Mr Abbott would handle minoritt government better?

As far as I am aware, the Coalition believes in allowing refugees residency.
I assume you mean their policy on illegal immigrants.
People seem to forget they are different.

How about we do this:

Allow every boat person entry because we are humane, and heck, they came by boat so they must be refugees.
We reduce the intake of legitimate refugees who apply through the correct channels by the same number.

As for the Coalition's right to play hard ball - they have every right and they are not wrong to do so.

The Government can always go and negotiate with the Greens. They also have a right to play hard ball and they are not wrong to do so.

Gillard wanted to be Prime Minister in a minority government - well, welcome to the party. Stop complaining that the other parties wont blindly follow terrible policies and get on with the job

[Sojourner]

When Peter Slipper became the Speaker, I can honestly say that I felt it was actually a good thing, the knife edge minority and the constant carry on through the media was not doing either side of politics any real good. With a two seat buffer its not unreasonable to expect Julia Gillard and the ALP to govern with confidence.

In respect to the policy towards asylum seekers, its not unreasonable to suggest that along with the Greens, Nick Xenephon Ind and John Madigan DLP should also be sitting down for talks. Nick X tends to take each issue on its merits, and the DLP are likely going to be influenced by the Catholic Church who have a strong left wing position on the issue of asylum seekers.

Gillard and Abbott did there best to win the support of the independants, Gillard won the day and was made Prime Minister its not unreasonable to expect that Julia Gillard will show leadership on this issue and deal with it. She put through the Carbon Tax because the Greens wanted it in return for their support, well now the ALP need that support and its clearly time to call for it.

As stated by Jimmy, the ALP can today adopt the position of the Greens if they wish to and be led by the Greens in bringing a solution to the problem, the solution that the Greens feel will work and will deal with the issue. Alternatively, the Greens could adopt the ALP position and back their plan to deal with the issue. They together are the Government and the idea of minority governments is that they work together with those parties that form the ruling coalition.

Julia Gillard does also have another option outside of the Greens and the Liberals. She can attempt to resolve the problem and be refused by both, she can then go to the Governor General and state that she feels that its unworkable and that she is unable to govern. The GG can then either attempt to direct people in the various parties to find a solution. If it cant then what can happen is that they can call for a double dissolution election.

If a double dissolution election happened, its a chance that the ALP could lose. Yet centrebet seem pretty confident that is going to be the result in two years anyway. Yet the Greens currently enjoy their best showing in parliament at present and get to have many of their senators there for a further term. A double dissolution's sets everyone back to 0 including the Greens. If the ALP lose as I suspect they will, I also think the Greens will get cleaned out at the same time as they will likely be blamed for having cost the country another election.

My point being that Gillard has several options outside of parity with Tony Abbott. Likely it comes down to just really how strong a leader she is and what she is prepared to do to show leadership. The ALP have been preferencing the Greens for years and building them up accordingly. The chicken was always going to come home to roost at some stage. How Gillard and the leadership of the ALP deal with it now is likely going to define the ALP for the next several years. Time will soon tell no doubt!

[Jimmy_041]

I know its not Crikey and therefore totally without credit but......

Over the barrel and low on pork
Simon Benson
The Daily Telegraph December 31, 2011 12:00AM

IT used to be called pork barrelling. All governments do it, and all governments deny they do it. But only the Gillard government - which prefers to call it the price of democracy - does it on behalf of it's political rivals.

This week, Treasurer Wayne Swan demonstrated just how sensitive Labor is to the perception that it bought itself government in 2010 with taxpayers' money, and continued to do so in 2011 to preserve its grip on power.

The Daily Telegraph this week published a list of the deals and promises made by the government to the Greens and independents since taking office in return for their support for minority government.

The bulk of it was made at the time to secure support to form government.

The rest has been slowly gouged from the budget over the past year by the Greens and independents as their price for supporting legislation.

The total cost is around $15 billion. This includes the $10 billion clean energy fund as promised to the Greens as part of the carbon tax package.

Swan's nonsensical argument was that the $10 billion couldn't be counted because only about $900 million had been allocated in the budget forward estimates.

The Treasurer also tried to dispute many of the items attributed to deals with various independents, despite his own budget papers clearly defining them as such.

But not only were Swan's claims disputed by fact, they were challenged by his minority government partners, the Greens. In a rare expression of support for The Daily Telegraph, the Greens congratulated this newspaper for highlighting all the wonderful things it had managed to squeeze out of the Labor government over the past 16 months. The only issue they took with the paper is that we forgot to mention some.

That is not to say that it has been money entirely wasted. On the contrary, many of the projects Tony Windsor and Rob Oakeshott have got out of Julia Gillard are not only worthwhile but desperately needed for NSW rural communities.

The Port Macquarie Base Hospital upgrade funding is a revealing example.

This would have never happened had it not been for the hung parliament.

The problem for Gillard is that it becomes an Oakeshott project, not a Labor one.

Windsor, Oakeshott, Andrew Wilkie and Bob Katter, and to a lesser extent Adam Bandt, cannot be blamed for doing what any independent in the same position would be expected to do.

Tasmanian independent Senator Brian Harradine was a master at feather bedding his state using Treasury coffers, as the price for supporting Coalition legislation between 1994 and 1999 when he held the balance of power.

Oakeshott and Windsor will argue that they have managed to get funding for regional issues that may otherwise have taken years or decades to be achieved. And they will need these projects to balance the anger their constituents hold for their complicity in also imposing a carbon tax on them.

It was the trade-off that these two former Nationals demanded, so they could justify to voters in their conservative seats why they backed Labor. They needed a disproportionate allocation of resources to their seats to justify their political betrayal.

But Labor MPs are only too aware of the perverse irony that sees Labor channelling money into seats of independents, and ones that will likely fall to the Coalition at an election. And this highlights an underlying problem and challenge for Gillard Labor in 2012. It finds itself pouring money into the seats of half a dozen rural independents and the pet projects of the Greens, instead of its own heartland.

Meanwhile, it is left to carry the blame for the significantly unpopular ones forced on it, like the carbon tax.

As far as deals go, Gillard Labor got the worst of both worlds. And that is becoming abundantly clear to marginal Labor MPs who are getting nothing for their own seats. Their hostility toward this arrangement with the independents and Greens grows by the day.

The long-term damage for Labor from all this arises from the inability of Labor to direct resources to those communities it needs to win back.

There is evidence that the government knows this. The PM broke her holiday this week just to announce a $30 million grant for the Adelaide Oval in the Labor seat of Adelaide.

Next year will be make or break for the Gillard government. And it will be made even harder as Swan has left nothing in the budget for the PM to build a second term agenda for Labor, as it tries in vain to get voters to forget the disasters of its first-term agenda.

Not only will 2012 be a defining year for Gillard and the government, it will probably become the year that determines the future for the Labor party itself.

[redandblack]

You'll be pleased to know, Jimmy, that the chief political writer for Crikey, Bernard Keane, isn't one of my favourite political journalists, although he does tend to favour facts over agendas.

So as not to get off-topic, I'll start a thread on political journalists and yyou can then see who I do rate and not rate.

[Jimmy_041]

I wouldn't know Bernard Keane from the tuck shop lady at Burnside School so I fail to see what your point is

[redandblack]

You had a crack at Crikey to start your previous post and he's their main political journalist.

Not that hard to connect those points.

[Jimmy_041]

No, I had a crack at the notion that Crikey is the only publication that is credible.

And I have no idea who Bernard Keane is

[redandblack]

Who has ever said that Crikey is the only publication that is credible?

I think only its opponents, sarcastically.

Mate, it's NYE, cheer up.

Sincerely all the best to you for the New Year

[Q.]

And I have no idea who Bernard Keane is

A LNP apologist

[southee]

Who has ever said that Crikey is the only publication that is credible?

I think only its opponents, sarcastically.

Mate, it's NYE, cheer up.

Sincerely all the best to you for the New Year

You do R&B and Q....you keep quoting and using their articles.

So they are not credible now????

[Q.]

I never said they it was the only credible source of journalism, although, I find it to be the most balanced online publication for Australian matters. I barely read print media anymore.

[Sojourner]

Another Manufacturing firm moving off shore, shifting production to New Zealand, 146 Manufacturing jobs gone.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/business/he ... 6235651226