bye bye Mr Rudd

[RustyCage]

So you believe we can never ever have world peace then?

No thanks.

The real reality is that people need to be punished for self interest that hurts others. If the punishment is appropriate - it'll change. There are other ways to engage in "inate human behaviour" and not hurt others. You seem the think that's impossible.

It's not.

Eliminate religion and you're well on your way, can't see that happening for a while though.

Thats right. 90% of was are on religious grounds, and many others are in relatiation to wars that were.

Is world peace possible? No. Should there be world peace? No. Would the world be a better place if you eliminated war? No. Would a war free world fix the problems in Zimbabwe? No. Would a peaceful world have stopped Saddam torturing and killing so many innocent people? World peace is just a hippie statement said by do gooder protesters, hippies and beauty pageant contestants.

[redandblack]

I didn't think it would be long before 'do-gooders' made an appearance.

Unfortunately for you though, pafc, the 'do-gooder protesters' against the war in Iraq (and Vietnam for that matter) have undoubtedly been proven correct.

However, your view that the world is a better place because of wars is unusual. I'm sure there are millions of war casualties and their families on all sides who possibly might not agree with you if they could have an opinion.

[Coorong]

Unfortunately for you though, pafc, the 'do-gooder protesters' against the war in Iraq (and Vietnam for that matter) have undoubtedly been proven correct.

Wont surprise you to hear that i have a very different slant on that. But not worth the energy to debate it. But you certainly follow the "party line" very well

[redandblack]

Why do I follow the 'party line' any more than you or anyone else, Coorong, or do you just like being patronising?

I suspect more than a few people would agree with my statement about Vietnam and Iraq.

[RustyCage]

I didn't think it would be long before 'do-gooders' made an appearance.

Unfortunately for you though, pafc, the 'do-gooder protesters' against the war in Iraq (and Vietnam for that matter) have undoubtedly been proven correct.

However, your view that the world is a better place because of wars is unusual. I'm sure there are millions of war casualties and their families on all sides who possibly might not agree with you if they could have an opinion.

I didn't say the world is better because there is war. I said it wouldn't be any better if there was no war. The countries at war now will still have the same problems they are having now. The war in Iraq will die out at some stage, in how ever many years, and the country will be a better place after the war than before it. Read anything written by people who actually live in Iraq and they say the death toll each year is less during the war than it was before it. The people who are so opposed to the Iraq war don't know much about what was actually happening there in the last 30 years.

Most protesters protest againt the government, and the government only. Anytime there is a protest, its always the same people, no matter what they are protesting about. I know a lot of people who protest. Most dont give a shit about the issue, they just hate the government.

Go back to my last post and tell me where I said the world is a better place because of war. I said the world would hardly be any different if there was world peace.

[BenchedEagle]

The war in Iraq will die out at some stage, in how ever many years, and the country will be a better place after the war than before it. Read anything written by people who actually live in Iraq and they say the death toll each year is less during the war than it was before it. The people who are so opposed to the Iraq war don't know much about what was actually happening there in the last 30 years.

I 100% oppose the crap u are dribbling here. What is ur source? The US Republicans newsletter! Absolute Rubbish.
Hussein was a dictator no doubt but he had control of his country there was no sectarian shia Vs Sunni civil war which is all but officially taking place in Iraq at the moment. The death toll is massively more since the war started, who are you trying to kid???
And as soon as the US withdraw from Iraq Civil war will escalate beyond anything we have ever seen ever.
The US has destroyed Iraq, the peices are only just holding up because they are still in there, wait till they leave!

[JK]

FFS ... What is this constant berating of other peoples opinions or beliefs ... Can any of us really be totally certain of what IS actually happening anywhere? Generally our views are created depending upon which slant we favour (or via media) and no one can ever be sure of what is right or wrong and to what extent from that lot which generally have a motive for whatever it is they sprout!

[PhilG]

..

[McAlmanac]

Generally our views are created depending upon which slant we favour (or via media) and no one can ever be sure of what is right or wrong and to what extent from that lot which generally have a motive for whatever it is they sprout!

Example:

In the Murdoch-published free rag mX on the train home tonight - "I did it" headline about the 9/11 mastermind's trial at Guantanamo Bay.
On ABC News Victoria - "an alleged confession from...."

I'm not quibbling on whether he's guilty or not - most people accept he is. It is the reporting of it which I'm highlighting, particularly as it is an internal trial.

[BenchedEagle]

FFS ... What is this constant berating of other peoples opinions or beliefs ... Can any of us really be totally certain of what IS actually happening anywhere? Generally our views are created depending upon which slant we favour (or via media) and no one can ever be sure of what is right or wrong and to what extent from that lot which generally have a motive for whatever it is they sprout!

Im not berating anyones opinion i respect everyones. But when i see absolute dribble full of absolute US propaganda lies i bite at it. Some times im not sure what is right or wrong either, but he is wrong!

[therisingblues]

FFS ... What is this constant berating of other peoples opinions or beliefs ... Can any of us really be totally certain of what IS actually happening anywhere? Generally our views are created depending upon which slant we favour (or via media) and no one can ever be sure of what is right or wrong and to what extent from that lot which generally have a motive for whatever it is they sprout!

Welcome to the politics forum Constance!
I think the reason we sometimes get so up in arms about other people's political beliefs is that when they sprout them in public, they also contribute to whatever slant others will take. We let them go unchallenged and then some others will often read unopposed suppositions and then repeat them as though they are fact. I totally agree with your socialogical take on the whole thing though, while our souls remain ours, our perceptions are shaped by our surroundings. It is my theory that this is why minority groups or those opposed to the current power are so vocal, they are trying to address some sort of information imbalance by making their view more conspicuous. It is easy to be smiley and laid back when, for example, you are talking through a world class publicity machine (ie. McDonalds, the U.S government, Oil companies), but if all you have is your own voice you'll need to be pretty loud to be heard.

[JK]

FFS ... What is this constant berating of other peoples opinions or beliefs ... Can any of us really be totally certain of what IS actually happening anywhere? Generally our views are created depending upon which slant we favour (or via media) and no one can ever be sure of what is right or wrong and to what extent from that lot which generally have a motive for whatever it is they sprout!

Welcome to the politics forum Constance!
I think the reason we sometimes get so up in arms about other people's political beliefs is that when they sprout them in public, they also contribute to whatever slant others will take. We let them go unchallenged and then some others will often read unopposed suppositions and then repeat them as though they are fact. I totally agree with your socialogical take on the whole thing though, while our souls remain ours, our perceptions are shaped by our surroundings. It is my theory that this is why minority groups or those opposed to the current power are so vocal, they are trying to address some sort of information imbalance by making their view more conspicuous. It is easy to be smiley and laid back when, for example, you are talking through a world class publicity machine (ie. McDonalds, the U.S government, Oil companies), but if all you have is your own voice you'll need to be pretty loud to be heard.

Cheers Theri ... Agree with what ur saying and don't have any problem with people having opinions or even being vocal about them, just wonder why some people feel the need to denigrate other's for having differing opinions.

Personally I'm happy to label someone as an Idiot if their behaviour warrants it, but not because of their size, shape, colour, heritage, faith or opinion ...

[therisingblues]

Well said Constance. Opinion and behaviour are very closely linked though, I sometimes need to restrain myself for some opinion somebody has, but to berate somebody just for syaing what they believe is just to create sides IMO, I guess I am on the same side as you in regards to that.

[Psyber]

I really did not care much about whether the Yanks invaded Vietnam or Iraq, although I think both actions were ill-judged. What concerned me was that in both cases our leaders could not see the folly in how it was done, and followed blindly, dragging us in too.

Vietnam was already a lost cause and the French could see that - that was why they bailed out. The Yanks expected it to be easy and misjudged and found themselves in an unwinnable guerilla war in dense jungle where their superiority in mechanisation could not help them.

Iraq was unwinnable for another reason. US mechanical superiority served them well in the initial invasion, but a professed Christian force [the US] might be welcomed when they topple the dictator, but they cannot expect to continue to be welcome if they stay on afterwards occupying a Muslim country - none of the Muslim sub-sects could or would accept it for long. If the invasion had occurred 10 years earlier, after Iraq had invaded Kuwait, the Kuwaitis and possible other Arab forces, may have been able to be persuaded to go in as the interim administration. This time, whatever the rights or wrongs [or the real motives] of the invasion, the problem was that they should have waited until they could persuade one or more of the arab nations that something must be done and gotten them to agree to take over the job of maintaining the peace and re-establishing order.

Unfortunately, the Yanks show a tendency to go of half-cocked, without the next step in mind, and our politicians have a tendency to follow them.

Also, regardless of the rights and wrongs of Iraq, I think that there is significance in deciding a dictator in the middle east should be toppled, but those in Africa can be ignored. The US has demonstrated a pattern of not feeling the need to impose democracy, or save from malicious dictators, the people in countries where the dictator is pro-US, or where there is nothing the US wants.

Iraq was always a disaster waiting to happen - three disparate groups thrown together by the stroke of a pen when the Eurpopeans moved out. There was concern about allowing the Shiites to join what was then Persia, or letting the Sunni join neighbouring Sunni groups, and the Turks who were still powerful at the time did not want to allow the Kurds an independent Kurdistan, because the Kurds in southern Turkey would then want to secede and join their fellow Kurds - and guess where Turkey's oil supply is located!

[Rik E Boy]

Is world peace possible? No. Should there be world peace? No. Would the world be a better place if you eliminated war? No. Would a war free world fix the problems in Zimbabwe? No. Would a peaceful world have stopped Saddam torturing and killing so many innocent people? World peace is just a hippie statement said by do gooder protesters, hippies and beauty pageant contestants.

I suppose you'll be soon off to the recruitment office then?

regards,

REB

[therisingblues]

Is world peace possible? No. Should there be world peace? No. Would the world be a better place if you eliminated war? No. Would a war free world fix the problems in Zimbabwe? No. Would a peaceful world have stopped Saddam torturing and killing so many innocent people? World peace is just a hippie statement said by do gooder protesters, hippies and beauty pageant contestants.

I suppose you'll be soon off to the recruitment office then?

regards,

REB

I think that the quote in bold is a classic example of where the line between behaviour and opinion becomes blurred.

[PhilG]

..

[our_longreach]

the pendulum is starting to swing back towards howard

[mick]

the pendulum is starting to swing back towards howard

I feel that as well, if JWH is 7-8% behind Rudd in the preferred PM stakes, it's not impossible to see someone with his political nouse to claw that back by December, in any case I think it will be a close election. I also think the high profile candidate thing will backfire on the ALP to some extent, also the ALP national meeting was hardly a resounding success, Howard will push the line that Rudd and the trade union movement are in bed together, interest rates are stable for the next six months, Mohammed Dawood is out of the news and the economy is purring along and finally the huge warchest the goverment has to woo or buy voters.....hopefully some more tax cuts.

[redandblack]

the pendulum is starting to swing back towards howard

It says it all when someone sees a 57/43 lead as good news for Howard.