Reasons to Vote "NO"

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Re: Reasons to Vote "NO"

Postby Pottsy » Wed Apr 27, 2011 1:28 pm

Hondo wrote:Does the MCG still have character after all the renovations over the years?

No. It's a fantastic place to watch sport when it's busy, as the crowd is awesome. But character? Not to me.

Hondo wrote:I keep hearing how visitors "wax lyrical" about the ground but I am not sure how much of that is real. I mean let's be honest - the stands don't match and there are temporary stands on the Eastern side (are they meant to be permanent?). Was it more beautiful before or after the new stand? Is it the view to the cathedral (which will stay) or is it the view to the hills (which will go)?

Well, from a bloke that has taken many a shandy with visitors over the years, I can assure you it's real.

As for ambience, as I said earlier, it's not quantifiable. Grass. Trees. An "open" feel. Surrounds. I love it. And really, that's what we're dealing with - love. People that are voting no (not necessarily me) generally love the place. There's no arguing with love! :yawinkle: :heart:
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Re: Reasons to Vote "NO"

Postby Dutchy » Wed Apr 27, 2011 1:37 pm

Hondo wrote:Wouldn't they just put up temporary seating for events that need to be fully seated? How many times will the world cup or the Cwth games be here in the next 50 years? Why would they bash down the scoreboard just for those 2 events we may not even win the right to hold?

I assume there are more events needing full seating.

On the current stands I mean the stands on eastern side. Are they permanent? They look like temporary seats that have just stayed there. Are they beautiful or any less beautiful than the proposed stands that will replace them?


All valide questions that the SMA/government refuse to answer!! But part of their sell to us is that the Northern end will stay is but the development will allow for these events to be held there.

Soccer World Cup criteria is permanent stands only. I would presume the same for Comm games and rugby world cups.

You obviously havent spent much time at AO Hondo, the Chappell stands are the Eastern stands and are permanent!!

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Re: Reasons to Vote "NO"

Postby Hondo » Wed Apr 27, 2011 1:43 pm

Dutchy I have sat in those stands several times.

You reckon they are world class? They look like temoporary stands even though they are permanent.
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Re: Reasons to Vote "NO"

Postby Pottsy » Wed Apr 27, 2011 1:45 pm

To your eyes Hondo.

To my eyes they look good, and are even better to sit in (except about 5pm!). They are full of air and light, much better than all the concrete jungles found around the world.
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Re: Reasons to Vote "NO"

Postby Hondo » Wed Apr 27, 2011 1:50 pm

Well I sit there feeling like I am sitting in temporary seating so unless it's just me .... I'll look more closely at them next time I am there. I just assumed they were basically a temporary seat construction with some big sails on top which you could pull apart at a later time with a few wrenches ;)

Once I am in these permanent stands, where are the toilets? Where do I get a drink or food?

These are the issues if the AO wants to step up to world class standard IMO.
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Re: Reasons to Vote "NO"

Postby smac » Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:17 pm

I'm back to clear up some more things...

Dutchy, in the centre of the two Chappell stands is a temporary stand that has been there for at least 3 years (I call it Trevor, presuming the permanent structures are Greg & Ian!).

FIFA require a fully seated stadium - there is a difference between fully seated and fully enclosed. The proposed redevelopment would allow for almost 50,000 seated patrons. And there will be, in the leases, requirements to retain the Northern mound and scoreboard (a commitment pre defined by the State Govt in their letter of intent from over 1 month ago).

Additionally, SACA have responded to the email questions from May-Z, almost 1 week ago.
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Re: Reasons to Vote "NO"

Postby MAY-Z » Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:56 pm

smac wrote:I'm back to clear up some more things...

Dutchy, in the centre of the two Chappell stands is a temporary stand that has been there for at least 3 years (I call it Trevor, presuming the permanent structures are Greg & Ian!).

FIFA require a fully seated stadium - there is a difference between fully seated and fully enclosed. The proposed redevelopment would allow for almost 50,000 seated patrons. And there will be, in the leases, requirements to retain the Northern mound and scoreboard (a commitment pre defined by the State Govt in their letter of intent from over 1 month ago).

Additionally, SACA have responded to the email questions from May-Z, almost 1 week ago.


yes they have responded but i have been away for the last week and have only opened the email today, i will post repsonses later today once i have had a chance to read them
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Re: Reasons to Vote "NO"

Postby MAY-Z » Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:56 pm

in the mean time here is an interesting comparison

http://www.kryztoff.com/RAW/?p=2812
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Re: Reasons to Vote "NO"

Postby MAY-Z » Wed Apr 27, 2011 3:38 pm

saca answers in brackets

1 - What is the estimated total budget for the estimated entire budget for the project?
(The Budget for the Oval redevelopment is $535 million. This does not include the pedestrian bridge or any works in the River Precinct.)

2 - How was this budget determined, and how confident are the projections?
(A lot of detailed work has been done on the design and construction of the stands and other parts of the redevelopment. If the Members vote in favour of the development allowing it to proceed, more work, including a tendering process and further value engineering will be undertaken to ensure the work is within Budget.)

3 - What exactly does the above budget include? Does it include all of the oval upgrade, River
Torrens crossings and precinct areas etc?
(See the answer to 1 above.)

4 - What happens if the budget exceeds the money that the state government have offered for the project, especially as they have said that they will contribute no more than the $535 million I believe and the SACA and SANFL have said they will not contribute any more funds to the project.
(The State Government is not only funding the project but is undertaking the build itself and therefore will ultimately control the final budget.)

5 - If in point 3 the answer is private funds how is the repayment of funds going to be managed? Do the private investors get precedence on funds over the SMA/SACA/SANFL? For instance last season The Kings of Leon concert clashed with a domestic game of cricket and the concert was moved. Would this happen with private investors involved who would clearly see a bigger return in
having the concert as opposed to the domestic cricket?
(See above.)

6 - How much say will the private investors have in the running of the oval? If it is their money being used they will want a reasonable return on their investment so can they enforce more profitable oval use age/design by altering grandstands or pushing for more development on the northern mound?
(See above.)

7 - It is said numerous times that the savings on the loan repayments will be spent on cricket
development in South Australia. How much of the $18 million will be spent on game development
and in what areas will it be spent?
(Those detailed plans have not yet been made for two reasons: the first is that we do not yet know if the redevelopment will go ahead and the second is that SACA will make sure a detailed strategic plan is developed so that any money spent creates the best possible return for cricket. We are looking at improving facilities for clubs etc around the state, putting more resources into coaching around the state from grassroots to elite levels, creating regional centres and schools programmes. But as I said, this detailed work will be done once it is known that the money will be available. It is worth remembering that SACA is a not for profit organisation that exists to promote and develop the game of cricket in South Australia and to look after the interests of its Members. Therefore the focus of the association’s efforts will continue to be in these areas. If the proposal goes ahead the difference will be that SACA will not have to take as much time dealing with the day to day running of a venue, ie the Oval.)

8 - Does our membership in the new world entitle us to entry into the next cricket world cup or will
we simply get priority booking options?
(My understanding is that our memberships would not include the cricket world cup. This is controlled by the ICC and normally has separate ticketing.)

9 - Whether it is fair that 5000 SANFL members will be able to purchase these ultimate AO memberships and gain admittance to the members area during cricket season
1) ahead of any people on the SACA members waiting list and
2) without paying the SACA joining fee (currently $299)
(The AO Ultimate product is based the findings of research among football and cricket members and the number is based on the anticipated demand.. SACA believes the increased capacity of the venue and the increased size of the Members’ Enclosure will continue to provide opportunities to increase the Membership over time.)

10 - Shield Final - still no guarantee it would be held at Adel Oval, we would have to negotiate with SANFL/AFL, I cant see that going well in early March leading into a footy season. This is a potential deal breaker IMO, why couldnt they agree that if SA qualified they could extend crickets rights to the oval for the 5 days required? This alone is likely to get many members offside.
(For the clash to occur, Cricket Australia would have to agree in advance with the AFL to schedule the Shield final and the opening round of the AFL on the same weekend. It is in the interests of neither to do so….and indeed if they did, the same problem would exist just about everywhere….MCG, SCG, Gabba etc. This is why we believe that we will be able to negotiate a successful outcome.)

11 - Major Events - It talks about AO allowing events such as Soccer WC, Rugby WC, Commonwealth Games but we all know these events require a full seated stadium which AO isn't, unless they get rid of the hill, which they say in the document will stay - Am I the only one who can see the issue here???! Sure it might not be an issue this decade but 20/30 years time?
(There is a very important difference between fully seated and fully enclosed. While Adelaide Oval will not be fully enclosed it will have around 50,000 seats.)

12 - How much has been spent on both Football Park and Adelaide Oval over the last ten years that this proposed plan(s) wipe out - the bus lane and terminal at Footy Park, the 7,000 seat northern stand built in 2000/01, the bucket seats, the second video screen at the southern end; Adelaide Ovals' Chappell Stands, the Clem Hill stand and relocation of the Victor Richardson Gates. All will
have proven to be just band-aids. How will we know this is the most responsible way to spend a
vast sum of money when all of these projects are quickly superseded?
(As I am sure you can appreciate, SACA cannot speak for Footy Park or the SANFL but in terms of Adelaide Oval, the proposal has a couple of key elements in respect of this. The first is to create capacity that is appropriate for multiple sports and of course primarily cricket and football. For SACA, the style and scope of the project gives us the opportunity to grow our Membership and attendances by the general public in higher quality facilities. This goes to SACA’s core objective which is to promote and develop cricket in South Australia. Your point about longevity is a good one and has been a key consideration. The trend for some time now around the world has been to build stadia around the 45,000 to 50,000 mark. This is considered the optimal size in terms of cost, maintenance and operation versus revenue. Stadia of the size of the MCG are increasingly rare. So we and the designers believe that what is proposed in Adelaide has the best chance of long term success.)

13 - Why not leave the Oval as is, and do the other things in the precinct to "brighten the scene up". There seems to be no test to see if Port can get more to Adelaide Oval by scheduling three matches for each of the next three years. The first couple will be a novelty, but when the novelty
wears off, what will the crowds be like?
(I understand your point, and although this is really a question for the football authorities, we believe that Adelaide Oval is a more convenient location for more people to attend matches and after the redevelopment would have better facilities, thereby attracting more people.)

14- As per point 13, Since 2006, both clubs have had sliding attendances at AAMI Stadium. Crows home attendances have fallen every year, from an average of 42,455 in 2006 to 35,766 last season. Power home crowds have not averaged more than 30,000 since 2006 and fell to a record low of 23,044 last year. So all this development seems a bit wasteful with no proof that enough
people want to attend AFL matches.
(See 13 above.)

15- Finally there seems to be a lot of public money at stake for 14,000 extra seats, surely the government could use this money better at a time when they are cutting public service jobs and selling forests etc so why should the whole state subsidise this relatively few patrons.
(This is really a question for the State Government rather than SACA, but we firmly believe that the long term benefits to the State from having a world-class multi-sport facility in the best position of any Australian capital will be substantial. Sport and its associated areas of activity, like tourism, are a huge global business and this redevelopment would put us in a much stronger position to be involved in that business.)
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Re: Reasons to Vote "NO"

Postby MAY-Z » Wed Apr 27, 2011 3:39 pm

1. as has been discussed previously, no mentions of car parks though
2. as previously answered
3. as above
4. My major concern still not properly answered, A couple of weeks ago state treasurer Jack Snelling said not $1 more would come from the government – SACA & SANFL are also distancing themselves from this
5. See above does not answer this at all
6. again see above does not answer this at all
7. nothing of great value here but I didn’t expect much just wanted an idea of where the money is going
8. big disappointment if saca have no input on who attends games, surely they could purchase tickets on behalf of the members or some other system
9. doesn’t answer the fairness question at all
10. what about the pre-season comp that starts in feb, Melbourne based clubs play at ethiad, Sydney can use the Telstra stadium – we cant as we are getting rid of our second stadium
11. this seems to disagree with the guide on http://www.fifa.com/aboutfifa/developin ... index.html
12. not much of value here except a bit of an admission that the money they have previously spent has been a bit of a waste
13. not much here
14. or here
15. as has been said previously people don’t have more money just because the game has moved locations.
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Re: Reasons to Vote "NO"

Postby Dutchy » Wed Apr 27, 2011 3:59 pm

Pretty ordinary response, but at least they gave you one (even if its after many have already voted!)

WHy cant they negotiate now and lock it in that if SA earn the right to the shield final they can host it?

I cant see any world cup competition or comm games having one end of the ground with no people cause it aint seated!

We have been previously told all $18m will go into cricket, this answer cant confirm that :?
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Re: Reasons to Vote "NO"

Postby Hondo » Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:00 pm

MAY-Z wrote:4. My major concern still not properly answered, A couple of weeks ago state treasurer Jack Snelling said not $1 more would come from the government – SACA & SANFL are also distancing themselves from this


They said they would make the construction fit the budget. So if some bells and whistles have to come out to fit the budget they come out. If not, it's a government project so they will fund any additional costs, not the SACA. That's what I take out of it. I am not sure what else they can say?

I think you are combining a statement (you think it will overrun) with a question (what will happen if your prediction comes true). Remember there is a larger scale development proposed for that whole area so the bells and whistles don't need to come out of the AO redevelopment.

I think the Government's statements about the cap are to ensure a proposal comes back from the SMA that fits the budget rather than the SMA submitting a wish list with no expense spared. Did you notice the reference in the Krystoff article you linked to fixed price v flexible priced contracts BTW?
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Re: Reasons to Vote "NO"

Postby MAY-Z » Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:05 pm

Hondo wrote:
MAY-Z wrote:4. My major concern still not properly answered, A couple of weeks ago state treasurer Jack Snelling said not $1 more would come from the government – SACA & SANFL are also distancing themselves from this


They said they would make the construction fit the budget. So if some bells and whistles have to come out to fit the budget they come out. If not, it's a government project so they will fund any additional costs, not the SACA. That's what I take out of it. I am not sure what else they can say?

I think you are combining a statement (you think it will overrun) with a question (what will happen if your prediction comes true). Remember there is a larger scale development proposed for that whole area so the bells and whistles don't need to come out of the AO redevelopment.

I think the Government's statements about the cap are to ensure a proposal comes back from the SMA that fits the budget rather than the SMA submitting a wish list with no expense spared. Did you notice the reference in the Krystoff article you linked to fixed price v flexible priced contracts BTW?


yes i did notice that and guess what - they govt wanted fixed price - no takers so had to offer variable. same thing will happen here

so if the project is amde to fit teh budget how misleading is all the 3d-modelling etc if that is top end but may have to be scaled back
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Re: Reasons to Vote "NO"

Postby Hondo » Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:08 pm

MAY-Z wrote:yes i did notice that and guess what - they govt wanted fixed price - no takers so had to offer variable. same thing will happen here


Rubbish

I have told you before that the company I work for does fixed price Govt work all the time

Fixed price work is normal in the construction industry. Have you ever built a house?

Leighton Contractors are currently taking a hit on their fixed price contract on the Victorian Desal plant, for example (google it) due to delays caused by the weather.

You guys don't want the answers, you want to hear what you want to hear.
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Re: Reasons to Vote "NO"

Postby MAY-Z » Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:12 pm

Hondo wrote:
MAY-Z wrote:yes i did notice that and guess what - they govt wanted fixed price - no takers so had to offer variable. same thing will happen here


Rubbish

I have told you before that the company I work for does fixed price Govt work all the time

Fixed price work is normal in the construction industry. Have you ever built a house?

Leighton Contractors are currently taking a hit on their fixed price contract on the Victorian Desal plant, for example (google it) due to delays caused by the weather.

You guys don't want the answers, you want to hear what you want to hear.


so if fixed price is so normal in the industry why didnt they build the last grandstand fixed price and save themselves 30million?

why didnt a fixed price contract happen in w.a?
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Re: Reasons to Vote "NO"

Postby Hondo » Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:13 pm

MAY-Z wrote:so if the project is amde to fit teh budget how misleading is all the 3d-modelling etc if that is top end but may have to be scaled back


What about the worry that world is predicted to end before this redevelopment finishes according to some religous fanatics

Honestly, just put your NO vote in and be done with it already :o
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Re: Reasons to Vote "NO"

Postby MAY-Z » Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:15 pm

Hondo wrote:
MAY-Z wrote:yes i did notice that and guess what - they govt wanted fixed price - no takers so had to offer variable. same thing will happen here


Rubbish

I have told you before that the company I work for does fixed price Govt work all the time

Fixed price work is normal in the construction industry. Have you ever built a house?

Leighton Contractors are currently taking a hit on their fixed price contract on the Victorian Desal plant, for example (google it) due to delays caused by the weather.

You guys don't want the answers, you want to hear what you want to hear.


and also if the building is going to be fixed price why when snelling was asked what would keep the costs from blowing out why didnt he say a fixed priced contract instead of saying that $535m is all we will spend and we will stop when it gets that high

if teh building is going to be fixed price why when mcclachan was asked about teh budget did he say that we wouldnt know what is going to be spent until teh project is finished.

both of these 2 people should know more than you if fixed price is either feasible or going to happen
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Re: Reasons to Vote "NO"

Postby Hondo » Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:17 pm

Your argument is falling flat so now you are re-writing the rules on how construction contracts are awarded when you don't even really know and I am teling you where I work does these sort of contracts.

Contractually agreed variations can and do occur but these need to be signed off by the Govt, and have good reasons to justify them.

You are making up your own story anyway so just keep going I reckon. It will be easier on all of us!
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Re: Reasons to Vote "NO"

Postby Q. » Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:46 pm

When does voting close and when will we find out the result?
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Re: Reasons to Vote "NO"

Postby redandblack » Wed Apr 27, 2011 5:58 pm

Take it easy, Hondo, they still seem undecided to me, although they haven't said anything positive about any of the answers at all:? ;)
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