Copenhagen Climate Change Conference = The League of Nations

[Gozu]

Hi purch, haven't seen you round here since the mining tax debate. Been reading the tea leaves have we?

[auto]

Global warming, and cooling (the Icehouse effect - no Iva Davies jokes please) has been occurring for billions of years. If we are really serious about stopping it then I suggest we spend a couple of 1000 trillion bucks on learning how to control the energy output of the sun, our trajectory around the galaxy, our proximity to supernovae and volcanic eruptions. The Earth is a dynamic place. The Black Sea never used to be there, neither did the Grand Canyon or the mid-Atlantic ridge and the African rift valley. Just wait until Mt Erebus farts, and just wait until a good chunk of Hawaii slides off into the Pacific. Then we'll all have something to worry about.

People now need to think independently & eschew the hyperbole that has been offered by unknowing and uneducated politicians and celebrities.

These are the people who the general public hear talk about it because most dont read, listen or hear the scientific debate. You'll find these politicians and celebrities generally accept the findings of the scientific community.

[Psyber]

Global warming, and cooling (the Icehouse effect - no Iva Davies jokes please) has been occurring for billions of years. If we are really serious about stopping it then I suggest we spend a couple of 1000 trillion bucks on learning how to control the energy output of the sun, our trajectory around the galaxy, our proximity to supernovae and volcanic eruptions. The Earth is a dynamic place. The Black Sea never used to be there, neither did the Grand Canyon or the mid-Atlantic ridge and the African rift valley. Just wait until Mt Erebus farts, and just wait until a good chunk of Hawaii slides off into the Pacific. Then we'll all have something to worry about.

People now need to think independently & eschew the hyperbole that has been offered by unknowing and uneducated politicians and celebrities.

These are the people who the general public hear talk about it because most dont read, listen or hear the scientific debate. You'll find these politicians and celebrities generally accept the findings of the scientific community.

Let's correct that: "You'll find these politicians and celebrities generally accept the opinions currently popular and fashionable in the scientific community."
"Findings" are raw data and interpretation, sometimes interpretation shaped by the pursuit of grants - I've seen it happening in medical research too.
They don't become fact until they've survived rigorous testing over time.

[fish]

...I suggest we spend a couple of 1000 trillion bucks on learning how to control the energy output of the sun, our trajectory around the galaxy, our proximity to supernovae and volcanic eruptions...

[Psyber]

...I suggest we spend a couple of 1000 trillion bucks on learning how to control the energy output of the sun, our trajectory around the galaxy, our proximity to supernovae and volcanic eruptions...

I'm sure purch wasn't offering that seriously, but it would be the only way to prevent any form climate change ever occurring, because those are the factors that have driving it for a few billion years now....

[purch]

...I suggest we spend a couple of 1000 trillion bucks on learning how to control the energy output of the sun, our trajectory around the galaxy, our proximity to supernovae and volcanic eruptions...

I'm sure purch wasn't offering that seriously, but it would be the only way to prevent any form climate change ever occurring, because those are the factors that have driving it for a few billion years now....

Spot on Psyber. It was not a serious suggestion (I find it hard to believe that someone actually took it seriously). I guess it is hard to explain these things to those who cannot comprehend enormous expanses of time (e.g. creationists). My point is that climate change has always been with us and that will not change in the future, despite any futile efforts by us to control it.

Most disturbing though is the kind of "science" that has been used to promote the current popular views:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfafW_3oJ3Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pd6B2iOZLt0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Y5E00_o_N4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xos49g1sdzo

Yet Al Gore (who is no scientist) insists "the debate is over"

[purch]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgQX3ndQQg4

[fish]

...I suggest we spend a couple of 1000 trillion bucks on learning how to control the energy output of the sun, our trajectory around the galaxy, our proximity to supernovae and volcanic eruptions...

I'm sure purch wasn't offering that seriously...

I don't take anything purch posts on this topic seriously...

[purch]

...I suggest we spend a couple of 1000 trillion bucks on learning how to control the energy output of the sun, our trajectory around the galaxy, our proximity to supernovae and volcanic eruptions...

I'm sure purch wasn't offering that seriously...

I don't take anything purch posts on this topic seriously...

That is very dogmatic and closed minded of you fish

Are you saying that the factors I mentioned have had no influence on climate, some of them quite regularly through Earth's history? And now that humans are here that they cease to be factors? Is that your belief?

If you think I was being serious about trying to control such phenomena then I pity you.

[purch]

Look out! An ice age is coming!*

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/national/nsw-experiences-coldest-winter-in-12-years/story-e6frf7l6-1225912313518
http://qcl.farmonline.com.au/news/state/agribusiness-and-general/general/record-rain-and-cold-for-western-qld/1946187.aspx
http://www.ntnews.com.au/article/2010/09/20/180561_ntnews.html
http://www.busseltonmail.com.au/news/local/news/general/busselton-experiences-coldest-winter-on-record/1929981.aspx
http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/August-Was-The-Coldest-In-The-Month-For-23-Years-Putting-A-Dampener-On-UK-Holiday-Period/Article/201009115710488?lpos=UK_News_First_UK_News_Article_Teaser_Region_0&lid=ARTICLE_15710488_August_Was_The_Coldest_In_The_Month_For_23_Years,_Putting_A_Dampener_On_UK_Holiday_Period
http://www.caboodle.hu/nc/news/news_archive/single_page/article/11/record_for_c/?cHash=4ae6922f97
http://www.timescolonist.com/life/Record+temperatures+Victoria+Sunday/3457576/story.html
http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/winter-records-set-in-perth-20100831-14bnf.html

*Of course, fish will think I'm being serious...

[fish]

Look out! An ice age is coming!*

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/national/nsw-experiences-coldest-winter-in-12-years/story-e6frf7l6-1225912313518
http://qcl.farmonline.com.au/news/state/agribusiness-and-general/general/record-rain-and-cold-for-western-qld/1946187.aspx
http://www.ntnews.com.au/article/2010/09/20/180561_ntnews.html
http://www.busseltonmail.com.au/news/local/news/general/busselton-experiences-coldest-winter-on-record/1929981.aspx
http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/August-Was-The-Coldest-In-The-Month-For-23-Years-Putting-A-Dampener-On-UK-Holiday-Period/Article/201009115710488?lpos=UK_News_First_UK_News_Article_Teaser_Region_0&lid=ARTICLE_15710488_August_Was_The_Coldest_In_The_Month_For_23_Years,_Putting_A_Dampener_On_UK_Holiday_Period
http://www.caboodle.hu/nc/news/news_archive/single_page/article/11/record_for_c/?cHash=4ae6922f97
http://www.timescolonist.com/life/Record+temperatures+Victoria+Sunday/3457576/story.html
http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/winter-records-set-in-perth-20100831-14bnf.html

*Of course, fish will think I'm being serious...

Surely the HOTTEST DECADE ON RECORD out-trumps a very cold winter.

[Psyber]

[ Surely the HOTTEST DECADE ON RECORD out-trumps a very cold winter.

Except the records are very short - most of them only go back to 1890 or thereabouts - not that far in many places.
On the other hand there are historical records of Roman vineyards in Yorkshire in about 200AD and Greenland was green - not covered in ice and snow as it is now - from about 900 to 950AD until the early 1100s.
Could the decades have been hotter then before present records?
Or would you argue grapes grew at lower temperatures then or snow melted at lower world temperatures?
Perhaps they were local hot spots caused by alien activity?

[Psyber]

I'm much more convinced about the significance of the human contribution to this issue.
It is reasonable to see it as global warming related, and as the article suggests similar events in the past may have been associated with past incidences of either global warming, or ocean current disturbance by other mechanisms, associated with volcanic activity.

Professor Ove Hoegh-Guldberg, of the ARC Centre of Excellence for Coral Reef Studies (CoECRS) and from the University of Queensland, says there is growing evidence that declining oxygen levels in the ocean have played a major role in at least four of the planet's five mass extinctions. "Until recently the best hypothesis for them was a meteor strike," he said. "So 65 million years ago they've got very good evidence of the cretaceous exctinction event. [sic]
"But with the four other mass extinction events, one of the best explanations now is that these periods were preceded by an increase of volcanic activity, and that volcanic activity caused a change in ocean circulation.

I do find it believable that we are a major source of the organic compounds referred to here: http://au.news.yahoo.com/odd/a/-/odd/84 ... ans-choke/

Scientists say ocean dead zones, which vary in size from one square kilometre to 70,000 square kilometres, have been found all over the world.
Particular hotspots include the Gulf of Mexico, off Namibia in the South Atlantic, in the Bay of Bengal, in the Baltic, the Black Sea, the tropical South Pacific, off China and south-eastern Australia.

"We're seeing an expansion of areas of the ocean which are very low in oxygen and also very low in nutrients," Professor Hoegh-Guldberg said.
"Climate change is driving changes to water circulation - so winds, strange weather patterns, have a consequence for how the ocean turns over and aerates and so on, and it's the winds which are delivering a lot of organic compounds into the deep sea.

"At the same time we are putting a lot of fertiliser off coastlines, those sorts of things are incubating these deep water anoxic zones.
"So it's the combination of those two things that are having a big change on how the ocean works."

He says organic matter building up in the sea is a huge problem.
"You get enormous amounts of organic carbon building up at depth, bacteria then likes to break down that organic matter and bacteria uses up the oxygen," he said.
"So then what you get is a substantial drop in oxygen - that then has the consequences for fishers, for the productivity of coastlines and so on."

I guess time will tell how significant the human contribution to this really is, but again I think we should clean up our act rather than just wait and see.

[Psyber]

By sheer accident, while looking up something else, I've come across someone sceptical about "global warming" as anything but the normal cycles who is a climate scientist - an Atmospheric Physicist:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirill_Y._ ... ysicist%29
http://translate.google.com/translate?h ... n%26sa%3DG

I've not read his work and reasoning in detail so I won't assume he is entirely right any more than I assume those Climate Scientists who champion the case for anthropogenic global warming are..

[fish]

By sheer accident, while looking up something else, I've come across someone sceptical about "global warming" as anything but the normal cycles who is a climate scientist - an Atmospheric Physicist:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirill_Y._ ... ysicist%29
http://translate.google.com/translate?h ... n%26sa%3DG

I've not read his work and reasoning in detail so I won't assume he is entirely right any more than I assume those Climate Scientists who champion the case for anthropogenic global warming are..

Psyber I am gobsmacked that in another thread you dismiss the work of thousands of scientists over several decades that has unequivocally concluded that climate change is forced by human activity, but you have no hesitation in providing a link to the work of a single skeptic who died in 2006!

[Psyber]

By sheer accident, while looking up something else, I've come across someone sceptical about "global warming" as anything but the normal cycles who is a climate scientist - an Atmospheric Physicist:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirill_Y._ ... ysicist%29
http://translate.google.com/translate?h ... n%26sa%3DG

I've not read his work and reasoning in detail so I won't assume he is entirely right any more than I assume those Climate Scientists who champion the case for anthropogenic global warming are..

Psyber I am gobsmacked that in another thread you dismiss the work of thousands of scientists over several decades that has unequivocally concluded that climate change is forced by human activity, but you have no hesitation in providing a link to the work of a single skeptic who died in 2006!

Back then I was advocating reading and thinking for oneself rather that just picking a convenient band wagon.

I posted this one because there or somewhere else on this forum I recalled someone claiming no one who wasn't a declared climate scientist could challenge the conventional wisdom, so I was pleased to have found one who couldn't be totally dismissed on those fallacious grounds. I feel silly now that I hadn't considered the obvious validity of dismissing his opinion on the grounds that he had since died!
So I shall note that the rules state no-one who isn't an approved climate scientist and isn't alive can be considered.

As you still stick rigidly to the same dogma, I see you still haven't read the links I supplied you with or done any other reading that may force you to think.
I met an SA politician the other day who said today's CO2 levels are the highest ever so I emailed him the links and charts.
The Vostok Ice Cores indicate our highest ever CO2 levels were reached about 325,000 years ago in the mid- Pleistocene.

[auto]

I read recently about ice core samples from Antarctica that indicated the highest ever levels of co2 are from the present. I will see if i can find/remember the link.

[Psyber]

I read recently about ice core samples from Antarctica that indicated the highest ever levels of co2 are from the present. I will see if i can find/remember the link.

I'd be interested to read it.
Here are the Vostok ones: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_core
They also get a mention in the article about the solar cycles: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milankovitch_cycles
And this looks at factors that vary the response to solar cycles: http://muller.lbl.gov/papers/lbl-35665.html

[auto]

Its on the Bravenewclimate website, i'll dig it up when i get a chance.

[Psyber]

Its on the Bravenewclimate website, i'll dig it up when i get a chance.

I had a look and tried a search there but I couldn't find it. I hope you can.
The politician I met the other day, who said CO2 levels are now the highest ever, was going by formal climate recordings that basically only go back to about 1890.
[That is to the end of the recent mini-Ice Age.]