Conspiracy Theories v Cover Ups

[Psyber]

To put it another way, if you accept there was at least some conspiracy (impossible not to), you'd then need to go pretty high up the power ladder to find people with the means to have kept it tight for so long, in other words, it has to be a big, well organised conspiracy with boot loads of power behind it.

Which is why after 50 years it becomes harder and harder to believe that there is a conspiracy because the horsepower and money required to keep everyone quiet until now and on an ongoing basis would be enormous. You'd need a secret "Minister to Maintain the Conspiracy" and a huge team keeping thousands of people under observation. Each new person brought into the team would add to the number in the know and exponentially the number of conspirators keeps growing over time. All this in the modern age of wiki-leaks, the internet, emails, instant news, etc, etc. There would be so many communication avenues to keep plugged that I think it would impossible.

It's the same argument made against why a Moon landing conspiracy would be impossible to keep secret for this long.

I heard somewhere that the FBI and CIA have been reverting back to paper files like the old days because electronic information was simply too hard to control.

So if you yourself accept that it being kept secret for so long requires extraordinary effort on the part of the conspirators and the fact that it would likely have to involve every President since 1963 then I think you have to at least start to question whether in fact there is a conspiracy.

That highlighted bit above is what is behind the reluctance of doctors to embrace the on line health records proposal put forth by the Australian health bureaucracy.
Especially so, because government records are prone to leaks and the health bureaucrats want to be able to mine the data for their own purposes...

[Zelezny Chucks]

Not really a conspiracy theory but thought it fit well with the ability to contain electronic information.

Sure it starts off as "insurance companies" then they change the laws once these things are in all new cars.

http://metro.co.uk/2013/09/19/from-the-skyway-to-the-highway-black-boxes-fly-into-cars-on-britains-roads-4046152/

[therisingblues]

Theri, a couple of documentaries have been made that have used scientific style tests on the magic bullet theory:

The Discovery Channel's reenactment of bullet CE 399's path (apparently their single bullet came close to duplicating all wounds in both men with a single shot, with a bullet having little deformation)

ABC's The Kennedy Assassination: Beyond Conspiracy - a computer animator over 10 years completely rendered the events of the day in 3D computer animation. "Myers' animation found that the bullet wounds were consistent with JFK's and Governor Connally's positions at the time of shooting, and that by following the bullet's trajectory backwards could be found to have originated from a narrow cone including only a few windows of the sixth floor of the School Book Depository, one of which was the sniper's nest of boxes from which the rifle barrel had been seen protruding by witnesses"

You could google and have a look. The second one is on Youtube but I haven't viewed it yet.

I'd like to see these documentaries. As I said I'd like to know what happened to JFK. But the large number of eyewitnesses? The unusual approach of the Warren Commission? The time anamolies? Etc.
Especially the fact that the US govts own inquiry indicated a second shooter indicates there was a conspiracy (perhaps purposely overlooked by the Warren Commission).
I won't list the numerous folk who've come forward as "overwhelming proof" as a good conspiracy often attracts the wrong types, but some of their stories and implications make good reading.
I'm not usually one who goes after the conspiracy theory per se, but this one seems to have so much weight to it, too many unusual occurrences etc. The original findings by the Warren Commission, which short circuited any further investigation while the trail was still hot, I believe were contrived.

[Psyber]

Not really a conspiracy theory but thought it fit well with the ability to contain electronic information.
Sure it starts off as "insurance companies" then they change the laws once these things are in all new cars.
http://metro.co.uk/2013/09/19/from-the-skyway-to-the-highway-black-boxes-fly-into-cars-on-britains-roads-4046152/

That one seems like an actual conspiracy rather than a theory.
All I can say is "Aaaarrgh!" and "I'll pay the higher premium thanks."

[therisingblues]

The "Paul is dead" Beatles conspiracy has to be one of the all time classics.

[heater31]

Another one worth mentioning is the story of Pat Tillman a NFL player who walked away from the game to fight in Afghanistan.

[cripple]

A good one that has no basis is that Hitler didn't actually kill himself at the end of WW2 but somehow escaped to the hills of Argentina with Eva Braun

Sent from my GT-I9305T using Tapatalk 4

[ORDoubleBlues]

Theri, a couple of documentaries have been made that have used scientific style tests on the magic bullet theory:

The Discovery Channel's reenactment of bullet CE 399's path (apparently their single bullet came close to duplicating all wounds in both men with a single shot, with a bullet having little deformation)

ABC's The Kennedy Assassination: Beyond Conspiracy - a computer animator over 10 years completely rendered the events of the day in 3D computer animation. "Myers' animation found that the bullet wounds were consistent with JFK's and Governor Connally's positions at the time of shooting, and that by following the bullet's trajectory backwards could be found to have originated from a narrow cone including only a few windows of the sixth floor of the School Book Depository, one of which was the sniper's nest of boxes from which the rifle barrel had been seen protruding by witnesses"

You could google and have a look. The second one is on Youtube but I haven't viewed it yet.

I'd like to see these documentaries. As I said I'd like to know what happened to JFK. But the large number of eyewitnesses? The unusual approach of the Warren Commission? The time anamolies? Etc.
Especially the fact that the US govts own inquiry indicated a second shooter indicates there was a conspiracy (perhaps purposely overlooked by the Warren Commission).
I won't list the numerous folk who've come forward as "overwhelming proof" as a good conspiracy often attracts the wrong types, but some of their stories and implications make good reading.
I'm not usually one who goes after the conspiracy theory per se, but this one seems to have so much weight to it, too many unusual occurrences etc. The original findings by the Warren Commission, which short circuited any further investigation while the trail was still hot, I believe were contrived.

Bump
Let's not forget, the definition of a conspiracy is 'two people entering into an agreement'. In the Kennedy case there could have only been a handful of people, at the most secret point, who actually knew all the details - everyone else is just following orders from their superiors. Let's also not forget, Kennedy had already started pulling troops out of Vietnam, a war that a lot don't realize actually began in 1945, and as we know, wars make money so he was never going to be allowed to stop that. (In fact IMHO Kennedy was the last legitimate president of the US - everyone since is taking orders from elsewhere).
I saw the show with the top Australian law enforcement guy but I have trouble believing that 1 bullet has caused 5 separate wounds - especially when it is known for certain that the bullet has hit bone and came out in miraculous pristine condition.
What is for absolute certain - despite what we are continually told - is that there is no way that Oswald pulled off that shooting job from that range with that rifle, with a huge tree in his direct line of fire. Even if he did, and there is no way he did, if it is so clear cut why wasn't he allowed to face trial? I think we know the answer to that one.
Another interesting sidebar is that at the time there was only two people in America who don't remember where they were when Kennedy was assassinated - George H.W. Bush (who started to giggle at Gerald Ford's funeral when he referred to the "deluded gunman") and Richard Nixon.

[Hondo]

How many people do you realistically think would need to be in "the know" in relation to a conspiracy to assassinate the US President?

I reckon a lot more than a handful. I don't know how many but whatever the original number hypothetically was over 50 years it would exponentially grow. People talk to family, friends, in jail, to anyone. Over time, others would need to be involved to continue cover-up operation.

It's more than just say a decision maker and a gun-man. There's layers involved in planning and executing the act. Then you have to get more involved in the cover-up operation separate from the original crime.

I don't think anybody can realistically estimate the number of people who would have to be involved and co-ordinated basically forever but it would be far, far more than even the most passionate conspiracy theorist would concede or have thought about.

I read an article somewhere that estimated the cost to the US Government in covering up a moon landing hoax over time. They estimated it would be almost as much as really going to the moon.

Once you think about the sheer numbers of people that would have to be in the know and then by extension have never said anything for 50 years, the conspiracy theories start to become far fetched IMO.

[Hondo]

What is for absolute certain - despite what we are continually told - is that there is no way that Oswald pulled off that shooting job from that range with that rifle, with a huge tree in his direct line of fire. Even if he did, and there is no way he did, if it is so clear cut why wasn't he allowed to face trial? I think we know the answer to that one.

No, I don't think this is correct. The two documentaries I suggested to you come to the conclusion that Oswald could in fact have done the job from that position with the rifle he had. They all but recreated the event and apparently proved it was possible.

From this article there's talk that Senator Connolly's seat was lower than the President's and not directly in front. This changes the dynamic of the trajectory of the bullets. I am not vouching for the article because I know nothing about Slate.com it's just another theory on the assassination.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_ ... rassy.html

[Footy Chick]

We musn't forget the worlds newest conspiracy theory:

[Dog_ger]

when you can read what is written on a golf ball from the moon.

makes you wonder...

[ORDoubleBlues]

.

[ORDoubleBlues]

How many people do you realistically think would need to be in "the know" in relation to a conspiracy to assassinate the US President?

Once you think about the sheer numbers of people that would have to be in the know and then by extension have never said anything for 50 years, the conspiracy theories start to become far fetched IMO.

Not too many IMHO and think it's pretty clear that foreign leaders have been offed over the years but you never hear anyone come out and say "oh we whacked Lumumba, we whacked Allende, we whacked Shah Pahlavi"

Anyone that did try to say anything would be instantly discredited through the media or worse

Is good we can have this debate though without it turning into a bunfight.

[Hondo]

I dunno, I don't think a contract goes out on the President of the United States without a lot of people being involved and giving their OK. It's a major deal. Not that I have ever tried to arrange one

(ODB, this is not directed at you) .... I think this is a great quote from that Slate.com article:

Second, there is comfort in this search for unseen mainsprings. If horrible events can be traced to a cabal of evildoers who control the world from behind a vast curtain, that’s, in one sense, less scary than the idea that some horrible things happen at random or as a result of a lone nebbish, a nobody. The existence of a secret cabal means that there’s some sort of order in the world; a catastrophic fluke suggests there’s a vast crevice of chaos, the essence of dread.

I believe the thought that a lone nobody could kill a US President is a frightening concept for some people. So to compensate, some convince themselves that rather than being at the whim of random events, Governments are all powerful and control every disaster.

Most if not all conspiracy theories blame the Government for the crime and the cover-up.

However in reality Governments don't seem very good at cover-ups. Richard Nixon tried to cover up Watergate and ultimately lost his job. Bill Clinton got caught with Monica. Reagan and the Iron contra. Things eventually leak out somehow. There is always someone with their own agenda wanting to leak information for their advantage. Kennedy assassination information would be an amazingly powerful weapon.

From the same era as the Watergate bungle, we have the moon landing and the Kennedy assassination and I am expected to believe that those Governments (and all subsequent ones that have to maintain the cover-up) successfully engineered cover ups that have lasted for decades.

[GWW]

Article re Bin Laden death - http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/ ... _raid.html

[therisingblues]

Hi Hondo
I actually just typed up about a half hour's worth of crap on how I think it could have been achieved with just 6 people with full knowledge.
I deleted it all because I scared the crap out of myself for daring to post it on the Internet in today's environment. But I thought it made for a good read.
Basically the idea of it was it is amazing what some people will do when they believe they are acting in the name of truth, meanwhile the real baddies stand around with their hands in their pockets and take them out just to move a peice here and there, when required.
Some people do things for rewards and never realize their role in part of a bigger game, and understand when it's best not to ask questions. Other people who don't understand that simple rule can be "removed", so to speak, as the conspiracies attest.
The real baddies can frame, manipulate, influence, act with impunity, all as part of their regular jobs. I think some of what they really do would defy even fiction and all legitimately in the name of truth, justice etc. they can just move a few boundaries, as easily as say a postman can stop by the shop and buy a liter of milk during his round, or a gardener can take home a rose cutting from a customer's green waste.
Anyway, my answer is 6 people, performing real deeds with full knowledge, and then a large network, manipulated to act a certain way.

[Footy Chick]

Does anyone know who this Australian sportsman is?

On the 14th anniversary of 9/11

http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real-life/conspiracy-theorists-just-refuse-to-listen-to-plain-simple-logic-heres-a-really-good-example-of-that/story-fnu2q5nu-1227522372675

[Dogwatcher]

Mundine?

[Alaska]

No as he stated a sport that he played.