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Re: The South Australian Political Landscape

PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 10:52 am
by jo172
Re the discussion about applying the duties of the Corporations Act more generally it's a very good point (and should certainly be applied to leaders of Trade Unions while we're at it).

One of the unforseen problems with the introduction of ICAC has been that government and local government now sees anything that doesn't rise to the level of maladministration to be appropriate levels of governance and accountability.

It's shit. Instead of raising the bar they now have it just low enough they can barely clear it.

Re: The South Australian Political Landscape

PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 11:20 am
by Psyber
I've never used the ignore filter as I favour debate and addressing disagreement in an open but civil way.
I can use my own internal ignore filter and not bother to respond if I think it will be a waste of time and effort... ;)

Re: The South Australian Political Landscape

PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 11:22 am
by DOC
Its like having a "husbands ear"

Re: The South Australian Political Landscape

PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 12:49 pm
by Jimmy_041
DOC wrote:Its only for show,

The big issue is not being discussed on here due to all the side issues.

Should MP's of any persuasion be allowed to give fireman a tray of doughnuts without ministerial approval?


Another side issue being used to deflect attention from real issues like dodgy Labor contracts like Nyrstar and LTO/Motor Registration privatisation.

The Hillgrove Resources agreement will be the next one when it’s revealed the extent of the State’s exposure in that little agreement (& the lies told on radio about it. Funny how it’s the same Minister in all 3 agreements)

Re: The South Australian Political Landscape

PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 2:07 pm
by morell
jo172 wrote:Re the discussion about applying the duties of the Corporations Act more generally it's a very good point (and should certainly be applied to leaders of Trade Unions while we're at it).

One of the unforseen problems with the introduction of ICAC has been that government and local government now sees anything that doesn't rise to the level of maladministration to be appropriate levels of governance and accountability.

It's shit. Instead of raising the bar they now have it just low enough they can barely clear it.
Again, the lowest category is maladministration. Which is the equivalent of "you're not very good at your job"

If the decree is that you're not not very good at your job, then .... by a leap of logic one would assume that you're ok at your job.

Do we want to be putting people in jail for only being ok at their job now?

Re: The South Australian Political Landscape

PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 3:00 pm
by Trader
morell wrote:
jo172 wrote:Re the discussion about applying the duties of the Corporations Act more generally it's a very good point (and should certainly be applied to leaders of Trade Unions while we're at it).

One of the unforseen problems with the introduction of ICAC has been that government and local government now sees anything that doesn't rise to the level of maladministration to be appropriate levels of governance and accountability.

It's shit. Instead of raising the bar they now have it just low enough they can barely clear it.
Again, the lowest category is maladministration. Which is the equivalent of "you're not very good at your job"

If the decree is that you're not not very good at your job, then .... by a leap of logic one would assume that you're ok at your job.

Do we want to be putting people in jail for only being ok at their job now?


No they should not be going to jail for being ok.
But they should be striving to be better than "not shit".

I'm with Jo here, so much dead wood in Local Government that gets away with being "not shit".

Re: The South Australian Political Landscape

PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 3:16 pm
by morell
That's true of every organisation. And of course we should be striving to be not shit. But I reject the notion that if ICAC find you to be innocent than there is automatically this next tier of cynicism to be directed at the public sector.

And sure, there is some dead wood. I know of daft buggers in the "big 4". One of whom we both know ;)

The thing with all this is were holding the private sector up to be some sort of bastion of good governance, high morality and efficient operations. What a load of gunk.

One need only pick up the paper and read a little bit about the financal advice industry. Previously the banking industry.

LG is held to a much higher standard because we spend public money. I get that. But let's keep it in perspective.

Re: The South Australian Political Landscape

PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 3:20 pm
by Trader
The private sector is so much more efficient than the public.
There are examples you can point to in both of poor efficiency but as a whole, private outstrips the public by the length of the straight.

Re: The South Australian Political Landscape

PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 3:48 pm
by DOC
How does the private sector stack up against the police, army, navy, airforce, firebrigade, foreign affairs, customs, immigration, foreign affairs and the work they do?

You need to be able compare like for like, then we get into the argument of what is a government service and who should provide it.

Comparing say housing trust building employees to private sector builders may be fair (I don't know) but the actual provision of Public Services as described above do not always have a private equivalent. .

Re: The South Australian Political Landscape

PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 3:50 pm
by jo172
morell wrote:That's true of every organisation. And of course we should be striving to be not shit. But I reject the notion that if ICAC find you to be innocent than there is automatically this next tier of cynicism to be directed at the public sector.

And sure, there is some dead wood. I know of daft buggers in the "big 4". One of whom we both know ;)

The thing with all this is were holding the private sector up to be some sort of bastion of good governance, high morality and efficient operations. What a load of gunk.

One need only pick up the paper and read a little bit about the financal advice industry. Previously the banking industry.

LG is held to a much higher standard because we spend public money. I get that. But let's keep it in perspective.


In this thread you defended Vlahos re Oakden on the basis the Commissioner did not make a finding of maladministration.

Not maladministration is not what public officials should be shooting for.

Many I act for and against now see that as their starting point.

Re: The South Australian Political Landscape

PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 3:52 pm
by jo172
Trader wrote:
morell wrote:
jo172 wrote:Re the discussion about applying the duties of the Corporations Act more generally it's a very good point (and should certainly be applied to leaders of Trade Unions while we're at it).

One of the unforseen problems with the introduction of ICAC has been that government and local government now sees anything that doesn't rise to the level of maladministration to be appropriate levels of governance and accountability.

It's shit. Instead of raising the bar they now have it just low enough they can barely clear it.
Again, the lowest category is maladministration. Which is the equivalent of "you're not very good at your job"

If the decree is that you're not not very good at your job, then .... by a leap of logic one would assume that you're ok at your job.

Do we want to be putting people in jail for only being ok at their job now?


No they should not be going to jail for being ok.
But they should be striving to be better than "not shit".

I'm with Jo here, so much dead wood in Local Government that gets away with being "not shit".


There's also a whole range between Maladministration and OK.

Inadequate comes to mind.

Re: The South Australian Political Landscape

PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 3:53 pm
by jo172
morell wrote:That's true of every organisation. And of course we should be striving to be not shit. But I reject the notion that if ICAC find you to be innocent than there is automatically this next tier of cynicism to be directed at the public sector.

And sure, there is some dead wood. I know of daft buggers in the "big 4". One of whom we both know ;)

The thing with all this is were holding the private sector up to be some sort of bastion of good governance, high morality and efficient operations. What a load of gunk.

One need only pick up the paper and read a little bit about the financal advice industry. Previously the banking industry.

LG is held to a much higher standard because we spend public money. I get that. But let's keep it in perspective.


ICAC does not find you innocent. It does not have that power.

Re: The South Australian Political Landscape

PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 4:01 pm
by morell
Trader wrote:The private sector is so much more efficient than the public.
There are examples you can point to in both of poor efficiency but as a whole, private outstrips the public by the length of the straight.
Rubbish.

Call Telstra
Call your energy supplier
Call your bank
Call your internet provider
Call your Council

Time them all. Then come back in here and tell me the private sector is efficient.

The might be efficient at making money, but that's it.

Re: The South Australian Political Landscape

PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 4:06 pm
by morell
jo172 wrote:
morell wrote:That's true of every organisation. And of course we should be striving to be not shit. But I reject the notion that if ICAC find you to be innocent than there is automatically this next tier of cynicism to be directed at the public sector.

And sure, there is some dead wood. I know of daft buggers in the "big 4". One of whom we both know ;)

The thing with all this is were holding the private sector up to be some sort of bastion of good governance, high morality and efficient operations. What a load of gunk.

One need only pick up the paper and read a little bit about the financal advice industry. Previously the banking industry.

LG is held to a much higher standard because we spend public money. I get that. But let's keep it in perspective.


In this thread you defended Vlahos re Oakden on the basis the Commissioner did not make a finding of maladministration.

Not maladministration is not what public officials should be shooting for.

Many I act for and against now see that as their starting point.
I defended the Government at the time for not sacking Vlahos on the spot because of the findings. Big difference.

I agree it shouldn't be what we aim for, but I don't agree that if there is a finding that there was no maladministration, that the next natural step is "well sure but it's the public sector, so they must be incompetent somehow"

I'm pushing back against the all to common trope.

Again, I've worked for very large private sector companies, a local engineering firm and many Council's.

If I had to rate them all in terms of quality of work and level of output. The Council's would win handily.

Re: The South Australian Political Landscape

PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 4:21 pm
by morell
DOC wrote:How does the private sector stack up against the police, army, navy, airforce, firebrigade, foreign affairs, customs, immigration, foreign affairs and the work they do?

You need to be able compare like for like, then we get into the argument of what is a government service and who should provide it.

Comparing say housing trust building employees to private sector builders may be fair (I don't know) but the actual provision of Public Services as described above do not always have a private equivalent. .

And more to the point..

What are we actually measuring?

Sure. A private firm might be making money in a more efficient way, but LG isn't structured to be making money, were not there for that.

How do you put a monetary value on some of the services LG provide? What is a youth development program "worth"? Not much unless you consider it might save a kid from suicide. Is it then priceless?

It's actually an asinine argument when you think about it.

Re: The South Australian Political Landscape

PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 4:33 pm
by Trader
morell wrote:
Trader wrote:The private sector is so much more efficient than the public.
There are examples you can point to in both of poor efficiency but as a whole, private outstrips the public by the length of the straight.
Rubbish.

Call Telstra
Call your energy supplier
Call your bank
Call your internet provider
Call your Council

Time them all. Then come back in here and tell me the private sector is efficient.

The might be efficient at making money, but that's it.


Quick timelines does not necessarily mean you're efficient.

Lets say the private sector produces 1 widget every day using 1 man.
If Local Government can produce that same widget by lunchtime, are they more efficient even though they employ 7 staff to do it?

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind local government is over resourced for the output they produce.

Re: The South Australian Political Landscape

PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 4:35 pm
by Trader
morell wrote:
DOC wrote:How does the private sector stack up against the police, army, navy, airforce, firebrigade, foreign affairs, customs, immigration, foreign affairs and the work they do?

You need to be able compare like for like, then we get into the argument of what is a government service and who should provide it.

Comparing say housing trust building employees to private sector builders may be fair (I don't know) but the actual provision of Public Services as described above do not always have a private equivalent. .

And more to the point..

What are we actually measuring?

Sure. A private firm might be making money in a more efficient way, but LG isn't structured to be making money, were not there for that.

How do you put a monetary value on some of the services LG provide? What is a youth development program "worth"? Not much unless you consider it might save a kid from suicide. Is it then priceless?

It's actually an asinine argument when you think about it.


They are not there to make money, correct.

But the lack of efficiency (over resourced, dead wood, whatever you want to call it) is causing them to waste money. That's the gripe the general public has, and rightly so.

Re: The South Australian Political Landscape

PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 4:42 pm
by morell
Trader wrote:
morell wrote:
DOC wrote:How does the private sector stack up against the police, army, navy, airforce, firebrigade, foreign affairs, customs, immigration, foreign affairs and the work they do?

You need to be able compare like for like, then we get into the argument of what is a government service and who should provide it.

Comparing say housing trust building employees to private sector builders may be fair (I don't know) but the actual provision of Public Services as described above do not always have a private equivalent. .

And more to the point..

What are we actually measuring?

Sure. A private firm might be making money in a more efficient way, but LG isn't structured to be making money, were not there for that.

How do you put a monetary value on some of the services LG provide? What is a youth development program "worth"? Not much unless you consider it might save a kid from suicide. Is it then priceless?

It's actually an asinine argument when you think about it.


They are not there to make money, correct.

But the lack of efficiency (over resourced, dead wood, whatever you want to call it) is causing them to waste money. That's the gripe the general public has, and rightly so.

Some of the public, perhaps.

I'd suggest the granny's on the volunteer bus probably think it's money well spent.

And that's the point. Most on here wouldn't take advantage of many of the services LG deliver, even to the point that I'd suggest many wouldn't even know LG deliver them! Could they be cut back to save money. Sure. Are you going to be the one to answer the phone when those services are slashed?

All about perception... And in turn, perception and expectation management.

Re: The South Australian Political Landscape

PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 4:54 pm
by morell
Trader wrote:
morell wrote:
Trader wrote:The private sector is so much more efficient than the public.
There are examples you can point to in both of poor efficiency but as a whole, private outstrips the public by the length of the straight.
Rubbish.

Call Telstra
Call your energy supplier
Call your bank
Call your internet provider
Call your Council

Time them all. Then come back in here and tell me the private sector is efficient.

The might be efficient at making money, but that's it.


Quick timelines does not necessarily mean you're efficient.

Lets say the private sector produces 1 widget every day using 1 man.
If Local Government can produce that same widget by lunchtime, are they more efficient even though they employ 7 staff to do it?

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind local government is over resourced for the output they produce.

That's because you don't value the output as high as others.

Re: The South Australian Political Landscape

PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 5:10 pm
by morell
And either do I, by the way, which is why I'd support cutting back social programs.

But if you do enough community consultation / social research you'll quickly discover there are large swathes of people that care more about art festivals, carols in the park and cinema nights than they do culverts, sealed road treatment types and kerb styles.