Born 1883, murdered 1996

[scott]

I can post the abusive PM here if you like, with my reply and a reference to the whole thread if you like. I couldn't reply to you via PM, because you didn't allow me to.

Now why am I not surprised?

[PhilG]

..

[Roylion]

Because - as proven - he doesn't listen or understand.

I'm very happy to 'listen', when I'm actually presented with a compelling argument, backed up with specific evidence. You haven't done that. Even now you refuse to address the points I've made, such as the one in the last post about Canberra. Where's your evidence that ther AFL wasn't interested in Canberra in 1995? I've provided you with a specific media report that suggests the opposite. Where's yours?

Roylion - ss far as you're concerned - you're right and everyone else is wrong.

Well of course I think I'm right. I wouldnt be arguing otherwise. You think you're right also and everyone else is wrong. At least I'm making an attempt to back up my opinions with hard specific concrete evidence. You on the other hand are not. As I've said, all you present are sweeping generalised, unsupported statements, which apparently I'm supposed to be convinced by. When I'm not...it's 'oh, you don't listen.'

And it would appear that nothing short of a fist to your face will make you see sense.

And when will you actually acknowledge that many of your statements have proven to be incorrect.

Live in your ivory tower. I don't care. Show no respect for another's experience. I don't care.

And what respect for my experience have you shown? I also don't consider I live in an ivory tower. I have been involved in local football at various times for the best part of thirty years.

I'm through talking to you - and this time I mean it.

That's four times now.

Get a life. And start by becoming a member of another football club or doing something else with football - because you're on a biased train to nowhere by sticking with Fitzroy.

This is a classic example of what I've been saying. You make unsubstantiated assumptions about my football experience. How do you know what I've done in football? I've already stated that I've both played and umpired local football for quite a few years and yet you've chosen to completely ignore that statement, while at the same time telling me to do something else in football. I would suggest that it is you that is not 'listening'. In fact I am currently a member of a couple of local football clubs and have been a member of several others at various times over the past thirty years.

Until then - shut the heck up.

Why? Because you've been thrashed again in an argument? If you want me to 'listen', (it is clear that this means 'agree with you') then I suggest you start providing some very good explanations complete with evidence to back up your statements. Until then, I'll continue to disagree with your statements, many of which I find to be either ludicrous, biased, misinformed and/or completely untrue. The fact that you fail to address my evidence or points, such as the evidence that I provided that the AFL was concerned with Canberra in 1995, (once again completely ignored by you) merely indicates that you don't know what you're talking about.

I knew I was wasting my breath telling the truth and backing it up with as much evidence as I could get my hands on.

The amount of supporting evidence you provided was pathetic.

But oh no - you want more!

Yes I do. If you want to convince me that you are right, then I want good reasons for doing so. You haven't provided that. In fact I'm not even sure you know how to provide evidence to support a statement. I've havent seen much so far.

Well you aren't getting it - because all you'll do is ignore it as always.

A very convenient excuse. You don't have the evidence. If you did, you'd provide it. That fact merely confirms that you're just pulling statments and opinions from your nether regions. And you just expect me to accept them, because of your 'extensive football experience'. Well I'm not going to just aceept them, purely on your say-so, until you provide very good evidence that supports those statements.

So I won't bother. You know I have the evidence deep down.

LMAO. Well present it here then!

You know as much about football as you know about the constitution.

Quite a lot then. And it appears far more than you. As I said I can present the link for the debate about the White Australia Policy and immigration here if you want, complete with the abusive PM you sent me, when I didn't 'listen' last time. I even had to look up the pre-1967 constitution up for you. You ran away from that debate as well.

And that IS my last post on this thread.

That's four times now.

Go back to where you came from, Roylion.

You'd like that wouldn't you? That would mean you can spout more crap about Fitzroy on here and no-one would challenge you.

Or should I say LEON WIEGARD 2!

On the number of occasions I've met and spoken to Leon Wiegard, I found him to be a pleasant and charming man. I'll take that as a complement. Thanks.

FITZROY IS DEAD!

Can you prove that? I think I've already demonstrated that Fitzroy Football Club is very much alive. Aren't you 'listening' to me?

COMMITTED SUICIDE!

Like the Snowy Rovers and Orbost committed suicide?

Can you prove that Fitzroy committed suicide? Or is this just more unsubstantiated opinion from you?

[Roylion]

All my posts on this thread have been removed by me - because Roylion is living off the biased nonsense he has been fed by his club.

Want to get rid of the evidence that you don't know what you ae talking about?

Don't worry. There's still a record of them in my posts. And you are still to demonstrate with any evidence how what I've said is nonsense.

It should have been ignored by me, and I thoroughly regret engaging this blind fool for a second time. It won't happen again.

Of course it won't, because you know you don't have an argument. You've shown very clearly that you have no idea about Fitzroy either then or now. And of course you don't want to engage me in debate. Your statements about Fitzroy have been shown to be ill-informed, misguided and just plain wrong. If you'd had any reasonable evidence to present in support of your statements, you'd present it. You haven't and you know you haven't, so you accuse me of not 'listening' and then run away from the debate.

Fitzroy members are living a lie, and the sooner they realise that the better.

LOL. And which lie is that again?

Fitzroy FC as a viable entity is dead. They committed suicide - because the VFA scared the pants off them.

LOL. Yet another unsubstantiated statement. In fact Fitzroy surrendered its licence and left the AFL competition on 1st November 1996. It's club operations were merged with the Brisbane Bears, as per a Deed of Company Arrangement. No doubt you've read the Deed and are able to comment wth some expertise on that?

No? Well that's surprising.

I will be looking into their current administrative status in great detail, with a view to.... well I won't say.

Go on....say it. You know you want to. LOL.

Should the Fitzroy Football Club be running scared of your 'investigation'? LOL.

Want some help when you look into Fitzroy's current administrative status? Who knows, miracles might happen and you might actually learn something to be able to comment on Fitzroy for once, with some degree of knowledge.

I'm very happy to provide information of Fitzroy current administrative status. Want their last financial report? List of directors? Date of Fitzroy Football Club's next AGM?

Of course seeing that I'm too 'biased' (I might have doctored the report to reflect my 'bias') ..LOL,

....perhaps you can start your 'investigation' of the Fitzroy Football Club by going to:

http://www.fitzroyfc.com.au

All contact details are on the website. Bill Atherton is the secretary. Dyson Hore-Lacy is the chairman.. still.

Memberships $25. Family memberships $30. Gold Lions sponsorship - $150. Fitzroy Foundation $25.

Visit the Fitzroy Shop. There's plenty of Fitzroy merchandise for sale. All owned and sold by THE Fitzroy Football Club....not the Brisbane Lions. They are TWO seperate legal entities and clubs, that nevertheless do have some ties.

Good luck with your investigations. I'll warn the Fitzroy Board at their next meeting that you are on the warpath and tell them to batten down the hatches...shred all documents....move all assets into offshore companies.... and so on. LOL.

[scott]

I originally posted something here about 30 minutes ago. Though, I deleted it literally within the space of about 30 seconds when I immediately realised that I should probably stay out of it (:)), and seeing that Phil stated he wasn't going to reply again, then it wasn't worth it and that Roy's post be the last in a thread that had reached its end.

However, obviously Phil is monitoring this thread religiously and doesn't want it to end, so he sent me a rather arrogant PM after obviously seeing the post that had been up for about 30 seconds. So here's the 'deleted' post, which was fairly tounge-in-cheek:

All my posts on this thread have been removed by me - because Roylion is living off the biased nonsense he has been fed by his club.

Translation: All my posts on this thread have been removed by me - primarily because I'm ashamed that I was unable to 'win' an net argument I was challenged on. This was mostly as a result of not having sufficient accurate facts regarding the situation, unlike the opposing entity. Unfortunately I exhausted all avenues to push forward my argument and maintain my image of that 'I'm always right, so anyone who disagrees must be wrong', such as abusing him (hopefully into submission), followed by using cheap cop-outs (such as "he's not listening", is "biased", "isn't respecting my opinion", etc), then I had to make the argument personal (I obviously have a more 'wider football experience') and because I still couldn't penetrate his defences, I deleted all my posts and again used more cheap cop-outs, instead of simply conceding that I don't know the full story and put the issue behind me.

Unfortunately what was a highly insightful and interesting discussion has ended in stupid circumstances.

Who wants a beer?

But Phil just can't help himself. He sent me a private message, condescendingly titled "Listen - but don't reply". I'm definitely not the type who publishes private information such as PMs on a public area, but Phil's PM was more regarding Roy and the topic at hand, so this is posted for his and the topic' benefit.

I won the argument. I removed the posts because there was no point arguing with the idiot.

If you don't want to believe me - bite me.

I'm right. He's wrong. I have dealt with blind idiots who listen to the wrong people before. They fall over eventually. There's no purpose in engaging a debate with someone who has no concept of the matter in hand. And by siding with him - you have shown the same lack of understanding.

I know the full story - more than he does. He only knows what the club tells him. I know more than that - and it's in my memory for ever. And I happen to trust my memory implicitly. He doesn't - so why should I argue with him when that happens? He won't listen. He wants evidence that - in the form he wants it - doesn't exist. That is - it's not on the internet (for a start).

Get out of the debate - you know less than he does so get out now before you look like the fool he already does.

I am not wrong.

Now apart from the fact I'm absolutely shaking in my boots at the threat, stop taking the net so bloody seriously. I'm smiling at my end. I bet you're not.

And don't private message me again.

[Pseudo]

I just discovered this thread. Comedy GOLD!

Everybody take a few deep breaths, and remember one of the internet's oldest platitudes:

[Roylion]

I know the full story - more than he does. He only knows what the club tells him. I know more than that - and it's in my memory for ever.

Quite puzzling. If PhilG knows the 'full story', then why isn't that 'full story' presented and explained clearly? I still don't know the exact circumstances how Fitzroy supposedly forced local clubs (and leagues!) to fold in their zone, as claimed, apart from a generalised statement how Fitzroy supposedly took their sponsors. Which sponsors? When? Which clubs?

I still have no reply/answer from PhilG about whether Fitzroy would be considered have an onfield presence had they been able to form the North Fitzroy Kangaroos, in the same manner as Snowy Rovers and Orbost, which of course was the oft-quoted example of clubs "swallowing their pride", an accusation levelled by PhilG (and once again not substantiated) against the Fitzroy Board.

As I've said repeatedly, all I've read from PhilG is a number of unsubstantiated statements on my club, that I'm supposed to accept, for no better reason than the author says they're true and has a wider 'football experience' than I do. I ask a number of questions to clarify matters or seek further information, or ask upon what evidence is this statement based on and very few of them are answered.

He won't listen. He wants evidence that - in the form he wants it - doesn't exist.

Then why should these statements by PhilG about Fitzroy be believed? Why should I accept these statements as 'truth', considering my extensive experience with the club over nearly two decades? All PhilG' has a poorly supported opinion (and in many cases they're opinions I disagree with a number of what I consider solid reasons). For example, I've actually met and spoken to Dyson Hore-Lacy and Leon Weigard on a number of occasions over the years. PhilG clearly hasn't and yet offers a derogatory opinion of them for reasons which he can't really explain or justify on any level, apart from World of Sport and archival sources, which he can't even recall or provide a specific example of.

I've studied and taught history at various levels for the last twenty-five years and I can assure you that if I used the poor quality evidence that has been presented by PhilG to support his statements, in presenting an historical argument, my argument would be regarded as virtually worthless by my colleagues.

That is - it's not on the internet (for a start).

I don't require it to be "on the internet". Literary citations are quite acceptable. Quotes, specific examples, anecdotes accompanied by detailed and coherent reasoning / explanation are all quite acceptable. Unfortunately little of that was provided.

Unfortunately what was a highly insightful and interesting discussion has ended in stupid circumstances.

Yes it's a pity. I had much more that I could have said about Fitzroy too. Unfortunately the whole thread in the end became a bit repetitive, because I had to keep making the same rebuttals to the same, one eyed arguments from PhilG. I became tired of continually typing "As I have said repeatedly.....". Clearly I was not being 'listened' to. LOL.

[Rik E Boy]

Here endeth the lesson LMAO.

regards,

REB

[PhilG]

..

[scott]

Oh - I deleted your PM without viewing it, Scott.

Oh you big man you.

Here's what it said:

Don't PM me again.

Seems fairly straightforward.

I still don't see what removing your posts was achieving? They're all quoted.

[Roylion]

If a person can't rely on their memory they can't rely on anything.

So what you are in fact saying, is that all your evidence for your statements comes purely from 'memory' and your 'football experience' and I'm therefore supposed to take your word for it on that basis?

It's going nowhere and it won't as long as Roylion persists with his biased line.

Prove that I'm wrong. You can't. Answer some of my questions, and the thread might go further. However you won't do that either.

I see your preliminary investigation of the Fitzroy Football Club making a 2004 profit of over $7,000 has also now been deleted. Didn't find what you were expecting?

2005 figures for the Fitzroy Football Club. (Source: 121st Annual Report of the Fitzroy Football Club for the financial year ending 31st October 2005). Fitzroy was founded on 26th September 1883, hence the last day day of October date.

Net Profit...$3,358 (after distributions to the Fitzroy Reds, The Fitzroy Juniors and the Fitzroy High School of $5,670.)

Fitzroy Football Club currently have borrowings of $11,000 to finance a reprint of Chris Donald's excellent book "Fitzroy - For the Love of the Jumper" from Fitzroy director Tom Sargant. In 2005, the club had 375 ordinary members, 7 Gold Lion members, 733 shareholder members and 78 life members. 1,193 members in total.

By the way Fitzroy Football Club came out of administration on 19th December 1997, not 2001 as stated in your now deleted post. I was one of the shareholders that voted in 1998 as to whether the club should be continued.

And I stand by that statement with every fibre in my memory. To try to change that would be to try and change a person's life. And that is something no one has the right to do no matter what.

I have every right to challenge your statements and ask for concrete evidence to support them. That's no matter how good your memory is supposed to be.

[Wedgie]

Just a thought guys, to turn what's turning into a negative thread into a positive thread.
Early next year when the new Fitzroy memberships are availble post details on here, I'm sure you'd get a few sympathetic fans of other clubs like myself that'd fork out for one.

[Roylion]

Most certainly. All are welcome to join THE Fitzroy Football Club.

I can't say much at the moment, but there also MAY be a pleasant surprise for Fitzroy fans and supporters before the opening of the 2007 season.

I'll post here when the 2007 membership form is up at http://www.fitzroyfc.com.au

I'm also told that at this stage, membership prices for 2007 are likely to be the same as 2006.

2006 Fitzroy Football Club memberships are:
- Ordinary Membership - $25.
- Family membership - $30.
- Gold Lions sponsorship - $150.
- Fitzroy Foundation - $25.

[MatteeG]

Well played Roy...

Philg- you are officially

[PhilG]

..

[Roylion]

Time will prove you wrong, Mattee G. Sooner rather than later.

Doing some research are we? The memory not so reliable after all?

How are the investigations into the Fitzroy Football Club going? Anything we should be worried about?

LOL.

A few other resources for you to research.

http://www.fitzroyjuniorsfc.com.au
http://www.fitzroyreds.com.au

and there are a number of other non-internet sources as well.

Chris Donald "Fitzroy: For the Love of the Jumper"
Garrie Hutchinson, Rick Lang, John Ross "Roar of the Lions Fitzroy Remembered 1883-1996"
Adam Muyt: "Maroon and Blue: Recollections and Tales of the Fitzroy Football Club"
Dyson Hore-Lacy: "Fitzroy" (oh..that's right...you weren't going to touch that one)

I also believe the Fitzroy Football Club is commissioning a new edition of their official history that was first published in 1983, on the occasion of their centenary. Fitzroy Football Club official historian Chris Donald (not sure about what our other official historian Rick Lang is doing) and possibly Jim Main will be working on that one. The new edition will be apparently be updated with information from 1984-2006.

[Rik E Boy]

This already good thread has turned into one of the best I've ever seen now that Phil has appeared to have taken his bat and ball and hit the books to do some research? Play on gentlemen.

regards,

REB

[Booney]

This already good thread has turned into one of the best I've ever seen now that Phil has appeared to have taken his bat and ball and hit the books to do some research? Play on gentlemen.

regards,

REB

Researching now is like training for a fight the day after you lose.

[Rushby Hinds]

Great debate,one player has some real facts,passion and incredible knowledge of the goings on,from the late 70's to the time when the VFL/AFL on-field version of the FFC became defunct.Well written,researched (although it appears Roylion lives this every day) and in some way makes me feel a little responsible (being a Port fan who was thrilled at our entry to the AFL) for the demise of the Fitzroy FC.Although,Oakley and co,in fact ,the AFL certainly have alot to answer for,Bulldogs,Hawthorn,Kangaroos and Melbourne should hang their collective heads in shame,the hand outs keeping their clubs afloat spelled the end of the Fitzroy team playing AFL football.Im glad I took the time to read this,and with out a doubt I will be keeping up with any further debate.

MW,sit down and read it.

BOO Booney!

Are you saying that the AFL as a collective should keep all the money they make when they sell things such as TV rights?

[Booney]

Great debate,one player has some real facts,passion and incredible knowledge of the goings on,from the late 70's to the time when the VFL/AFL on-field version of the FFC became defunct.Well written,researched (although it appears Roylion lives this every day) and in some way makes me feel a little responsible (being a Port fan who was thrilled at our entry to the AFL) for the demise of the Fitzroy FC.Although,Oakley and co,in fact ,the AFL certainly have alot to answer for,Bulldogs,Hawthorn,Kangaroos and Melbourne should hang their collective heads in shame,the hand outs keeping their clubs afloat spelled the end of the Fitzroy team playing AFL football.Im glad I took the time to read this,and with out a doubt I will be keeping up with any further debate.

MW,sit down and read it.

BOO Booney!

Are you saying that the AFL as a collective should keep all the money they make when they sell things such as TV rights?

No Im not,and I think you have taken that comment,made in relation to this thread totally out of context.