MOVEMENT AT CARLTON??

[am Bays]

Reported on Channel 7 news tonight here in VIC Kernahan and Swann are flying back witht eh Pres on Pratt's personal plane tonight....

Word has it Pagan is goneski, come Tuesday nights board meeting...

[McAlmanac]

I am not totally convinced of Pagans credentials as a coach in relation to "Building a side". I am convinced that if he has a first class group of players that he can coach in such a way that wins finals and premierships.

The man won two premierships with guys he coached in Under 19's. It doesn't get much more hands on than that.

[Dirko]

Now you know what STK supporters have had to put up with for 100+ years.
No sympathy whatsoever.

Wouldn't ask nor expect any 66....just 16 to 1....

[Dutchy]

I am not totally convinced of Pagans credentials as a coach in relation to "Building a side". I am convinced that if he has a first class group of players that he can coach in such a way that wins finals and premierships.

Load of crap sorry

He took a team over that got smashed by 20 goals and were a rabble and turned them into the team of the 90's with 7 straight Prelim finals...Lets be honest apart from Carey and McKernan there wernt many "superstars" in the Roos team...

Ill say it again the problem with Carlton isnt at the coaching level, they are 3-4 years minimum away from being successful no matter who the coach is

[redden whites]

Got to agree with Dutchy on that one . He had a team playing week in week out for a bloody long time consistant high quality footy with with very few "mega-stars" but a hell of a lot of " bread and butter" types who gave every ounce they had every week(eg Laidley,Rock,Clarkson,Martyn,Scholl,Crocker,Blakey)

[Hondo]

I agree that it's unfair to label Pagan as a guy who only does well when he has a great side. His record with the Kangaroos taking them from a bottom 8 side to a power-house speaks for itself.

What might be playing against him now is the thrashings. Thrashings raise everyone's alarm bells and Pagan seems to be coaching the side in a style that will either result in a 250 point game or a thrashing. If he could stem the size of the scores kicked against him it would help his cause I reckon. Also the fade-outs in the second half of each season are a worry. Would anyone else do any better tho?

Will be interesting to watch Richmond if they stay on 1 win - contract or no contract it's hard for a board to keep a coach on after that diabolical performance. Having said that, having to pay out 2 full years of a contract is tough for a Board to stomach so he'll probably stay.

[am Bays]

Got to agree with Dutchy on that one . He had a team playing week in week out for a bloody long time consistant high quality footy with with very few "mega-stars" but a hell of a lot of " bread and butter" types who gave every ounce they had every week(eg Laidley,Rock,Clarkson,Martyn,Scholl,Crocker,Blakey)

Was Pagan that good or Schimmelbusch that bad....

[Hondo]

Got to agree with Dutchy on that one . He had a team playing week in week out for a bloody long time consistant high quality footy with with very few "mega-stars" but a hell of a lot of " bread and butter" types who gave every ounce they had every week(eg Laidley,Rock,Clarkson,Martyn,Scholl,Crocker,Blakey)

Was Pagan that good or Schimmelbusch that bad....

Let's not under-sell the quality of the Kangaroos playing list in that era:

Wayne Carey
Anthony Stevens
Glenn Archer
Wayne Schwass
Michael Martyn
David King
Adam Simpson
Corey McKernan
Peter Bell
Byron Pickett
Martin Pike
Shannon Grant
Brent Harvey

- to me, these are stand out players in the history of the club (and most played SOO) on top of quality second-tier players like Allison, Scholl, Blakey, Rock, Laidley, Fairley, Roberts, Longmire

I can't accept that the team of the 90s was made up of mostly 'bread-and-butter' types - it was a genuine power-house.

This doesn't diminish my views on Pagan's coaching ability but, geez, suddenly that great side is being relegated to a bunch of goers which I think is re-writing history a bit.

[Dutchy]

Wayne Carey - Champ
Anthony Stevens - naturally gifted no, got the most out of his body...yes
Glenn Archer - See A Stevens
Wayne Schwass - class act, no champ though
Michael Martyn - See A Stevens
David King - See W Schwass
Adam Simpson - See A Stevens
Corey McKernan - Champ
Peter Bell - See W Schwass
Byron Pickett - See W Schwass
Martin Pike - See A Stevens
Shannon Grant - See W Schwass
Brent Harvey - is now a champ, back then was still developing

all great players, but the 90's bunch was a superb team, not individual brilliance, shown by our great stirkerate when Carey was not playing

Shannon Grant was the only one taken high in the draft....still think only Carey and McKernan were the genuine Champions that could grab a game by the throat and change it by themselves...

[Dirko]

Dutchy...how many of those blokes came up through the 19's with Pagan as their coach?

I am sure Pagan can coach, but am unsure if he can develop a struggling list such as Carlton's...
If he had the list we've got now three years ago, then I'd expect something, but I can't see him
being around in three years time for the list to be more developed, older and stronger...

[Hondo]

Wayne Carey - Champ
Anthony Stevens - naturally gifted no, got the most out of his body...yes
Glenn Archer - See A Stevens
Wayne Schwass - class act, no champ though
Michael Martyn - See A Stevens
David King - See W Schwass
Adam Simpson - See A Stevens
Corey McKernan - Champ
Peter Bell - See W Schwass
Byron Pickett - See W Schwass
Martin Pike - See A Stevens
Shannon Grant - See W Schwass
Brent Harvey - is now a champ, back then was still developing

all great players, but the 90's bunch was a superb team, not individual brilliance, shown by our great stirkerate when Carey was not playing

Shannon Grant was the only one taken high in the draft....still think only Carey and McKernan were the genuine Champions that could grab a game by the throat and change it by themselves...

I think it's just personal opinion like the infamous is Tredrea a 'champion' debate - I'd argue all those guys up as most, if not all, playeed SOO including Brent Harvey in 1999 when you say he was still developing. To say those guys were not naturally gifted, but just got the most out of their bodies, is a severe understatement IMO. Besides, we aren't looking for a number of champions in a team - it's the number of 'class acts' or 'very good players' that give a side the depth and overall skill to become a power-house. The Kangaroos 'very good player' went down to about player 18-20 on any given week which is arguably 5-8 more than your standard side.

Look at West Coast in the early 1990s you could say the same thing about Worsfold, McKenna, Kemp, Pyke, Wilson, Sumich, Heady - if Stevens and Schwass aren't champions then neither are those guys but, geez, I'd take all of them any day.

[TroyGFC]

IMO a Roo's '96 team was the absolute best team, would match it (beat) with Bombers 2000 and Lions 2001 teams. The Roos with Carey and McKernan always destroyed Brisbane bears in finals.

As for Pagan I think he should still be coach next year. currently in newsflash he is in talks with board at undisclosed location in Melbourne CBD where the board will ask him to resign)

[Benchwarmer]

Brett Ratten just been announced as coach - one step forwards ... now I am waiting for the three steps backwards from somewhere at the club!

[redden whites]

Adam Saliba, Andrew Rogers,David Bolton,Nick Holland,Grenville Dietrich(good on ya Deets what a night for the great man... ),Greg Whittlesea & Matthew Campbell all played SOO for SA but I wouldn't call them all-stars.SOO is not the be all and end all; you did not have to be a champion to get a game just available.

[Booney]

Movement alright,like the type of movement you have after a week on the Sultana Bran!

[Macca19]

Pagan/North Melbourne was the last beneficiary of the U19 system. They got a lot of very good players from their U19s in the 90s. Yes they were definately a powerhouse. They made 7 straight Prelim Finals for 3 Grannies and 2 premierships. Thats a powerhouse.

After a disastrous Pre season match which saw Schimma sacked and Pagan take over, I think he took over a playing list ready to dominate. THeir playing list shouldnt be understated.

Pagans record has been tarnished at the Blues though. Sure he/they suffered a major setback re: draft picks but they made a lot of bad decisions with their recruiting. Too many drafting of rejects from other clubs for too many years.

[Dirko]

Farewell Dennis...Not suprised and as I posted earlier, Pratty musta have had his checkbook open for the payout.

Brett Ratten just been announced as coach - one step forwards ... now I am waiting for the three steps backwards from somewhere at the club!

Where did you hear this, as they haven't announced yet ? Hot rumour is Braddles, as apparently he has no desire to become a senior coach, where Ratts does. Makes sense, why send Ratts to the wolves at this stage, if it may affect any chance of picking up a senior job somewhere.

[Hondo]

It's become trendy to ditch the coach before the season ends all of a sudden

Everyone trying to get in early to grab the best of the prospective new coaches?

[Dirko]

It's become trendy to ditch the coach before the season ends all of a sudden

Everyone trying to get in early to grab the best of the prospective new coaches?

I think it's like most jobs, if you don't get the KPI's, the $$$ etc etc then you get moved or the flick...

[Blue Boy]

It's become trendy to ditch the coach before the season ends all of a sudden

Everyone trying to get in early to grab the best of the prospective new coaches?

Spot on Hondo