Umpires

[PhilG]

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[Dissident]

I tend to disagree with that, Dissident.

I personally feel that putting on a good tackle shouldn't automatically mean a holding the ball call. The spirit of the free kick (as I see it) is it's a penalty - not a reward. Holding the ball is not a reward for a good tackle - it's a penalty for the player who got caught. In other words, if the player being tackled does nothing wrong - ball it up.

THAT is black and white.

Excuse me???
My whole argument is that a good tackle should not automatically mean a holding the ball decision! Did you read what I wrote?
My statement says that a player who tackles a player who is about to run off or something to that effect, is rewarded for holding up play and changing the momentum



And yes, it is a penalty but you're stretching it a bit far if you say that a tackle laid that creates a holding the ball decision isn't a reward! Anything you get for effort is reward. Just like a smother. You are rewarded with stopping a forward movement of the other team.

OK - my message got missed obviously so I went back and realised why. So I'll do this again.

Missed? What? I read it... it was there.

If a guy is on his knees, or near the ground like that and takes posession, that is NOT diving the ball and NOT pulling it in.

Yes it is pulling it in. That's what is being discouraged by the rule. If you are on your knees, ANY taking possession is pulling it in.

I KNOW it is the rule and I disagree with it. A guy can be on his knees, or on one knee, and want to get the ball and handball it off. To me, it's logical he should be able to.

If a guy gets the ball, and before he has ANY TIME to get rid of it, is tackled and ONE arm is pinned behind his back, that is NOT holding the ball.

Yes it is. He has the other arm to knock it clear. If he can't use the other arm for whatever the reason (and this does happen) only THEN is it not holding the ball.

NO PHIL.
Are you not reading?


How about I put a ball under one of YOUR arms, and hold the other and tell you to get it off.
THAT is what I was referring to. A guy gets the ball and HAS POSSESSION and before he can do anything he's tackled and the OTHER arm is pinned.

That is NOT HOLDING THE BALL.

Scott Thompson was pinged right in front of me on Saturday night. He was making a play for the ball, got barreled over and two guys pinned his back down and held the ball in. That is NOT holding the ball.

On that description - here I agree, because that sounds like in the back. Protection free kicks should always be paid first. This is what I was focussing on in my reply, and hence the missed signal.

Spell Check is spot on. The three umpire system in the AFL has NEVER been allowed to settle down. It's been a mess ever since it was introduced.

[JK]

Coaches, Players, Supporters, You, Me, In Fact Everybody Have Been BITCHING About Umpiring Standards For Ever And A Day. I Have NEVER Heard Anyone Ever Say The Umpires Have Had A Good Year, EVER, So Logic Tells Me That Not To Expect Any Change In The Next Few Decades So Everyone Out There GET OVER IT and GET USED TO IT............

As long as there are LOSING teams every week, there WILL ALWAYS be BITCHING about umpires.

Well done Jackpot.

the coaches exploit all the interpretations and are more to blame than the rules committee.

Think you're putting the cart before the horse on that one Smithy ... The rules are always exploitable (and will always be exploited, as a coaches employment hinges on advantages to his team) and the committee seems to over-look the area's that will be affected when they whip out yet another band-aid rule which inevitably causes more harmful change than it does good.

Jackpot - You are very correct in what you say, umpires in the present are always and have always been copping it, but there are always exceptions to the rule ... In the 80's there was a bloke called Glen "Jesse" James who was a fantastic umpire and was widely respected, I'll be amazed if anyone looks back at this generation and can say the same.

[McAlmanac]

Coaches, Players, Supporters, You, Me, In Fact Everybody Have Been BITCHING About Umpiring Standards For Ever And A Day. I Have NEVER Heard Anyone Ever Say The Umpires Have Had A Good Year, EVER, So Logic Tells Me That Not To Expect Any Change In The Next Few Decades So Everyone Out There GET OVER IT and GET USED TO IT............

As long as there are LOSING teams every week, there WILL ALWAYS be BITCHING about umpires.

Post of the month.

[am Bays]

If a guy gets the ball, and before he has ANY TIME to get rid of it, is tackled and ONE arm is pinned behind his back, that is NOT holding the ball.

Yes it is. He has the other arm to knock it clear. If he can't use the other arm for whatever the reason (and this does happen) only THEN is it not holding the ball.

NO PHIL.

Diss 1 PhilG 0

If a player is tackled without prior opportunity to dispose of the ball and makes an attempt to do so it is not a free kick Laws 15.2.3 and 15.2.4. The laws specifically provide an example where a player who takes possion of the ball and is tackled legally without prior opportunity to dispose of it legally or is swung off the ball in the act of attempting handball or kicking it or the ball is forced lose it is not a free kick 15.2.4 (a)-(e)

As Diss intimated in his example it is all about prior opportunity to dispose of it. If he has had prior opportunity he is a dead duck if he has no prior opportunity as in Diss' example it is play on or My ball fellas I'm throwing/bouncing it up here....

[Dissident]

Sometimes it seems umpires consider a break in play a bad thing.
But this is FOOTBALL, OUR LOVELY GAME! It's beautiful.

Sometimes, a ball gets stuck and a bounce is needed.
I detest rule changes to stop that.

[PhilG]

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[am Bays]

If a guy gets the ball, and before he has ANY TIME to get rid of it, is tackled and ONE arm is pinned behind his back, that is NOT holding the ball.

Yes it is. He has the other arm to knock it clear. If he can't use the other arm for whatever the reason (and this does happen) only THEN is it not holding the ball.

NO PHIL.

Diss 1 PhilG 0

If a player is tackled without prior opportunity to dispose of the ball and makes an attempt to do so it is not a free kick Laws 15.2.3 and 15.2.4. The laws specifically provide an example where a player who takes possion of the ball and is tackled legally without prior opportunity to dispose of it legally or is swung off the ball in the act of attempting handball or kicking it or the ball is forced lose it is not a free kick 15.2.4 (a)-(e)

As Diss intimated in his example it is all about prior opportunity to dispose of it. If he has had prior opportunity he is a dead duck if he has no prior opportunity as in Diss' example it is play on or My ball fellas I'm throwing/bouncing it up here....

Que?

How are Diss and I wrong?

15.2.4 Application — Specific Instances where Play shall Continue
For the avoidance of doubt, the field Umpire shall allow play to
continue when:
(a) a Player is bumped and the football falls from the Player’s hands;
(b) a Player’s arm is knocked which causes the Player to lose
possession of the football;
(c) a Player’s arms are pinned to his or her side by an opponent
which causes the Player to drop the football, unless the
Player has had a prior opportunity to Correctly Dispose of the
football, in which case Law 15.2.3 (a) shall apply;(d) a Player, whilst in the act of Kicking or Handballing, is swung
off-balance and does not make contact with the football
by either foot or hand, unless the Player has had a prior
opportunity to Correctly Dispose of the football, in which case
Law 15.2.3 (a) shall apply; or
(e) a Player is pulled or swung by one arm which causes the
football to fall from the Player’s hands, unless the Player has
had a prior opportunity to Correctly Dispose of the football, in
which case Law 15.2.3 (a) shall apply.

How funny is this two level 2 umpires having a nerd off......

15.2.4 provides specific examples where Diss' examples are play on or ball up scenario.....

Over to you for the last word as usual........

[PhilG]

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[am Bays]

Well my fellow umpiring friend we are going to have to agree to disagree as no way would I ping someone who has had no prior opportunity to disposal of the 'aggot and has been grabbed by one arm in any way shape or form and I bet I wouldn't get dropped or have that decision criticised if I made my decision based on prior opportunity lack there of whn a player has been grabbed so one arm in pinned and the ball is disposed of illegally....

still maintain the example I quoted of Diss his intpretation is correct...

[PhilG]

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[Dissident]

No Phil I don't think you did read what I wrote as you replied with "he could get rid of it with his other arm" which he can't, as it's pinned.

You wrote originally "I personally feel that putting on a good tackle shouldn't automatically mean a holding the ball call" - this says EXACTLY what I SAID.... I never said anything to the contrary.

Your thought of dropping it on th boot does and can happen SOMETIMES but more often than not the player is being swung around, and forced to "run" with the tackler and it's nigh on impossible to get it off.

You have a pretty warped view if you think that everytime one arm is pinned, the player can ALWAYS get the ball away with a kick.



Do you have a problem with being wrong? Or just with someone else being right?
I don't give a toss about any accreditation Phil.

Time and time again I've seen a player have one arm pinned, and the ball under the other and there is NO WAY HE CAN GET RID OF IT WITHOUT DROPPING IT. Phil, I have SEEN THAT.

And THAT is what I was referring to with my post.





to me, you didn't read properly, or misinterpreted.


I wrote :

If a guy gets the ball, and before he has ANY TIME to get rid of it, is tackled and ONE arm is pinned behind his back, that is NOT holding the ball.
(My MY picture is a guy with the ball under one arm, and the other arm pinned... ie NO ARMS FREE)
You wrote:

Yes it is. He has the other arm to knock it clear

(Ummm what arm?)

[Dissident]

(c) a Player’s arms are pinned to his or her side by an opponent which causes the Player to drop the football

Plural. Diss's example was one arm only.

(e) a Player is pulled or swung by one arm which causes the football to fall from the Player’s hands

Diss's example was a tackle as in both arms around the player with the ball pinning one arm. Being pulled or swung does not match that description.

Again - Diss's example is HOLDING THE BALL.

I said a TACKLE.
Often, holding one arm IS a tackle. Don't change what I wrote for your purpose.

[PhilG]

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[Dissident]

For crying out loud Phil, you are the most frustrating person on here.

My argument, from the start, was a tackle that pins one arm, meaning the person can't get rid of the ball by hand.
YOU misunderstood that as from the start, you said they could use the other hand. They can't - it's pinned.

I am not talking about an impossible scenario.
ALL THE TIME I see someone get the ball, get tackled and have the "ball arm" free and not be able to get rid of it (by hand OR foot) and get done for holding the ball.


I am FAR from the typical fan who doesn't understand the rules Phil.

I am not WRONG Phil, as you told me.

Phil gets ball. has it in one arm/hand.
Tassie tackles you, around your body, pinning one arm in the tackle
You are moving, and running and going with Tassie and there's no way you can get rid of the ball by foot.
Your arm is pinned and can't handball it off.

That is NOT holding the ball.
That is what I've said from the start.




This all started because you misunderstood what I wrote in the first post you replied to.

One arm pinned + one arm with ball = unable to handball.
Where this "spare" arm/hand comes from you mentioned in your first reply I have no idea.




(I've asked but you continue to not say)

[PhilG]

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[Coorong]

You are moving, and running and going with Tassie and there's no way you can get rid of the ball by foot.

YES YOU CAN!

I've seen it. I've seen people manage it. Why can't you?

I know what I would like to kick right now and its about the same size and density of a footy

[PhilG]

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[Coorong]

Is that a threat, Coorong?

I'm getting pissed off right now with this BS!

Phil, given your aggression and insistance you are always right in EVERY post, now your sensative...is that a condition of your well publicised disability?

[PhilG]

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