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[am Bays]

Pagan has been on a hiding to nothing over the last four years.....hos best young talent Waite Murphy etc have had injuries and he has had to make do with players not up to it.

You can't polish a turd......

[heater31]

This then puts the blame on the previous administration before the proverbial shite it the fan with salary cap rorting (ie John Elliot & Co.) and now the blues are paying for it with substandard performances with players who are not up to the task

[Dutchy]

This then puts the blame on the previous administration before the proverbial shite it the fan with salary cap rorting (ie John Elliot & Co.) and now the blues are paying for it with substandard performances with players who are not up to the task

hits nail on head!

[sydney-dog]

I think Pagan is old-school and over-rated and the reason he is a premiership coach is because at the time he had an unstoppable player at CHF and he kept it simple, leave the entire 50m to Carey

Apparently he is ok senior players but he falls away badly with the younger group or fringe players (DOUBLE STANDARDS)

Even saying that, too many senior players have been eratic at Carlton during his term

Look at young players such as Waite and Walker, these kids have been on the list for 3 years and their not developing, it's an easy observation to say he has been dealt a bad hand but I don't think he is the right man for the job, I don't think he is a good fit for the Carlton Football Club

[Punk Rooster]

I think Pagan is old-school and over-rated and the reason he is a premiership coach is because at the time he had an unstoppable player at CHF and he kept it simple, leave the entire 50m to Carey

Apparently he is ok senior players but he falls away badly with the younger group or fringe players (DOUBLE STANDARDS)

Even saying that, too many senior players have been eratic at Carlton during his term

Look at young players such as Waite and Walker, these kids have been on the list for 3 years and their not developing, it's an easy observation to say he has been dealt a bad hand but I don't think he is the right man for the job, I don't think he is a good fit for the Carlton Football Club

So why was he such a successful coach in the VFL U19 system then?

[mighty_tiger_79]

PUNK

dont ask silly questions?

[sydney-dog]

Punk Rooster

mate he coached at u/19 level back in the 80's, footy has changed a fair bit since then

secondly it is absolute comon knowledge that he has complete different standards when it comes to players, young kids get dragged, and the vain popping out at them while senior players basically run their own gig, this is not just case at Carlton but ALSO AT North's

I agree you can't always measure a coaches impact by a win / loss, Carlton senior players Fav, Lappin, Stevens have all had discipline issues, while younger guys such as walker and waite their footy development has hit a wall, not to mention Carlton play with no system and when they loose they get belted

Yes Pagan inherited a basket case for a club but the club has not improved on field under his guidance, it isn't even obvious what is their actual strategy and direction they are headed in

He is an average coach that was blessed with the most dominant player in that era, Carey had more influence over Nths premiership's then Pagan

Pagan's coaching manual read, "kick it to carey"

[heater31]

Pagan's coaching manual read, "kick it to carey"

It has now changed to "Kick it to Fev" only problem is that you have to get the ball first and when your engine room only got two cylinders you are up a creek with out the paddle

[sydney-dog]

two years ago people said Adelaide had the worst list, mattner, bock, rutten, stevens, doughty, aging players like hart, roo, goodwin, clake, macca, it was the bottom 4 for the crows

but it is amazing what can happen when a coach can reinvent senior players and actually teach these no names how to play the game, develop a game plan that is not reliant on stars

people put so much importance on the draft, bottom line is all players drafted in the top 50 have talent, but talent only gets you so far, desire takes you all the way

[Dutchy]

Punk Rooster

mate he coached at u/19 level back in the 80's, footy has changed a fair bit since then

secondly it is absolute comon knowledge that he has complete different standards when it comes to players, young kids get dragged, and the vain popping out at them while senior players basically run their own gig, this is not just case at Carlton but ALSO AT North's

I agree you can't always measure a coaches impact by a win / loss, Carlton senior players Fav, Lappin, Stevens have all had discipline issues, while younger guys such as walker and waite their footy development has hit a wall, not to mention Carlton play with no system and when they loose they get belted

Yes Pagan inherited a basket case for a club but the club has not improved on field under his guidance, it isn't even obvious what is their actual strategy and direction they are headed in

He is an average coach that was blessed with the most dominant player in that era, Carey had more influence over Nths premiership's then Pagan

Pagan's coaching manual read, "kick it to carey"

absolute Bollicks!!!!

why then did the Kangas have a greater than 50% record when Carey was out of the side???? He missed 10 matches one year and we still made the Prelim.

If it was that simple how come he did no good for the crows?

[sydney-dog]

he did no good for the crows because his body was broken and he came with baggage

Dutchy I know someone who worked at your club as a stat's man during the Pagan days and this person was directed by pagan to add hard ball gets and chase downs to Carey's stats so Pagan can highlight Carey's 1%

I don't rate the guy that simple, it's my opinion, Carlton paid a lot of money for an over-rated coach

[GWW]

I remember in 93, Schimma was coach in a pre season game, they lost to the Crows by about 22 goals. A week later Pagan took over and he moulded them into a competitive unit straight away, and eventually into one of the great teams of the 90's.

[sydney-dog]

guess what guys, it's now 2006 and he is still playing 93 footy, a coach needs to tailor his game plan to his list, Pagan coaches like he still has Carey playing at CHF, yes he is a premiership coach and yes he is the only coach to deliver to wooden spoons to Carlton

[Dutchy]

dont let the facts get in the way of a good story SD, Carey was good enough for them to give up Draft Pick No. 3 for him (Daniel Wells BTW)

[sydney-dog]

Im pretty confident that the crows did not trade draft pick #3 for Carey, I don't think the crows have ever had a top 5 pick to trade

[am Bays]

Im pretty confident that the crows did not trade draft pick #3 for Carey, I don't think the crows have ever had a top 5 pick to trade

Crows would have been pick 13 in 2002 draft as they came 4th that year. Can't recall if there were any priority picks in 2002.

[Punk Rooster]

May have been Pick 5 overall in the Draft, as Carlton lost there first 2 picks, due to Salary Cap infringements.
I'll check history forum, as I did comprehensive research on the draft.

[Dutchy]

Sorry my mistake it wasnt pick 3 it was Pick 2! here it is SD, basically you got pick 2 for Johnson and gave it to us for Carey - also proves a point about Carlton, losing those draft choices in an very deep draft has not helped Pagan


THE CAREY DEAL

What the clubs got

Kangaroos: Draft picks No.2 (Daniel Wells) and 18 (Kris Shore) *

Richmond: Kane Johnson, Adelaide’s draft picks 12 (Jay Schulz), 28 (passed on to Essendon as part of the Justin Blumfield deal) and 41 (Tim Fleming)

Adelaide: Wayne Carey, Jason Torney and pick 32 from Richmond (Luke Jericho)

* The Kangaroos originally traded for picks 4 and 20, but Carlton’s disqualification from the draft elevated the selections to numbers 2 and 18. The same applied to Richmond and Adelaide's selections

[sydney-dog]

did the crows get #2 pick from the Tigers for Johnson and then passed it on to Nth for Carey

if so not a good deal in my books

[Dutchy]

did the crows get #2 pick from the Tigers for Johnson and then passed it on to Nth for Carey

if so not a good deal in my books

not now and for the next 10 years with Carey in the commentary box and Wells runnign through the corridor and hitting Thommo on the tit!

weve done alright out of these trades recently - remember Grant/Schwass deal? clubs take our dead wood and give us 200 game players!