3rd SA AFL club

[evans01]

With all these expansion talks the AFL will introduce two divisions.....god forbid...

[Psyber]

With all these expansion talks the AFL will introduce two divisions.....god forbid...

That means certain clubs could get to choose between relocation or relegation - that may be interesting!

[Punk Rooster]

if the AFL truly cared about a united national Australian Rules football comp, they would base it on the EPL.
Let the weak flounder, & the strong prosper.
Premier League c/w/should (initially) contain sides such as Adelaide, Collingwood, Essendon, West Coast, Brisbane, Sydney, North Melbourne, Port Adelaide, Geelong, Carlton, Hawthorn & Western Bulldogs (reverting back to Footscray) etc, ideally 12 teams, play each other twice- one home, one away.
National League would be the teams who did not make the APL (out of current AFL sides), such as St Kilda, Richmond, Fremantle & Melbourne plus the next best 8 sides in Australia- no matter where they are from.
Then you would have State Division teams, comprising 12 sides per Div.
State Division 1
State Division 2
State Division 3
v
State Division 18 (as required)

No salary cap- the strong survive.
I do not like this socialist competition we have at the moment.
The money the AFL has would more than compensate for the travel in the Premier & League Division.
At the end of each year, 2 National League sides go up, 2 bottom Premier League sides go down, bottom 2 National League sides go back to their state of origin, with a play off amongst State Leagu sides to earn a shot at playing in the National League.
We would retain a "Final 5" with the Grand Finalists being the promoted clubs (much as the SAAFL works)

We would have the quality players for a 2 tiered competition that Foxtel etc would pick up (12 games a weekend), allows for expansion, proomoting quality clubs up the ladder/not carrying sides etc...

This will get laughed at as being "too hard", & will never get legs, but it makes a hell of a lot more sense than our current set-up.

Also, the TV $'s would cover the travel costs between the sides in the Premier & National Div.

I would love to see North Adelaide playing in a higher competition if they deserved too- much like Central would be playing in the National League at the minute...

[Psyber]

That has merit Punky, but the travel cost potential would need to looked at closely because of the distances involved here.

I wonder whether you may need less than 12 teams per level. However, the Melbourne based AFL would have problems dropping any Melbourne based team out of the top level, and it would all depend on whether those bidding for the TV rights thought it would make them more money, because they run the whole show now.

[evans01]

if the AFL truly cared about a united national Australian Rules football comp, they would base it on the EPL.
Let the weak flounder, & the strong prosper.
Premier League c/w/should (initially) contain sides such as Adelaide, Collingwood, Essendon, West Coast, Brisbane, Sydney, North Melbourne, Port Adelaide, Geelong, Carlton, Hawthorn & Western Bulldogs (reverting back to Footscray) etc, ideally 12 teams, play each other twice- one home, one away.
National League would be the teams who did not make the APL (out of current AFL sides), such as St Kilda, Richmond, Fremantle & Melbourne plus the next best 8 sides in Australia- no matter where they are from.
Then you would have State Division teams, comprising 12 sides per Div.
State Division 1
State Division 2
State Division 3
v
State Division 18 (as required)

No salary cap- the strong survive.
I do not like this socialist competition we have at the moment.
The money the AFL has would more than compensate for the travel in the Premier & League Division.
At the end of each year, 2 National League sides go up, 2 bottom Premier League sides go down, bottom 2 National League sides go back to their state of origin, with a play off amongst State Leagu sides to earn a shot at playing in the National League.
We would retain a "Final 5" with the Grand Finalists being the promoted clubs (much as the SAAFL works)

We would have the quality players for a 2 tiered competition that Foxtel etc would pick up (12 games a weekend), allows for expansion, proomoting quality clubs up the ladder/not carrying sides etc...

This will get laughed at as being "too hard", & will never get legs, but it makes a hell of a lot more sense than our current set-up.

Also, the TV $'s would cover the travel costs between the sides in the Premier & National Div.

I would love to see North Adelaide playing in a higher competition if they deserved too- much like Central would be playing in the National League at the minute...

wont happen..........very complex to get the clubs and supporter bases to agree.....

[Punk Rooster]

That has merit Punky, but the travel cost potential would need to looked at closely because of the distances involved here.

They cover the travel now without any problems...
Increased games = increased TV $'s, which covers additional travel- if any.
Remember, there are still 10 Melbourne based clubs minimum in the top 2 leagues, & no travel issues in the State Leagues, as they play within their own state boundaries.

I wonder whether you may need less than 12 teams per level. However, the Melbourne based AFL would have problems dropping any Melbourne based team out of the top level, and it would all depend on whether those bidding for the TV rights thought it would make them more money, because they run the whole show now.

Better to drop them to the 2nd highest league in Australia, than to drop them into oblivion...
Let's face it- the clubs I named (only 4) are struggling financially or results-wise.
They should be forced to prove they are worthy, not the AFL forced to justify them unworthy.

[Punk Rooster]

wont happen..........very complex to get the clubs and supporter bases to agree.....

agree it won't happen- it would take leadership & vision to get this set up as our National format.

Supporter bases don't need to agree- they would be scared their club might be found out though.
At the moment, apart from a Premiership, there is not much motivation for middle-of-the-road clubs. Also, why not reward clubs like Central District for being the best they can be?

[Psyber]

That has merit Punky, but the travel cost potential would need to looked at closely because of the distances involved here.

They cover the travel now without any problems...
Increased games = increased TV $'s, which covers additional travel- if any.
Remember, there are still 10 Melbourne based clubs minimum in the top 2 leagues, & no travel issues in the State Leagues, as they play within their own state boundaries.

I see what you are saying, but my question is whether there are enough "increased TV $'s" in the advertising income for free to air, and extra subscriptions to Foxtel, to enable or encourage the media barons to pay enough extra for the rights to fund the expense. Those sources of income are not infinitely expandable in a population of our size.

Don't get me wrong - I like your suggestion overall. It just needs to be looked at carefully.

[Punk Rooster]

I see what you are saying, but my question is whether there are enough "increased TV $'s" in the advertising income for free to air, and extra subscriptions to Foxtel, to enable or encourage the media barons to pay enough extra for the rights to fund the expense. Those sources of income are not infinitely expandable in a population of our size.

Don't get me wrong - I like your suggestion overall. It just needs to be looked at carefully.

the AFL has decide to increase the competition by 2 teams, on the basis that the extra costs would be met by the increased TV rights.
I realise these would have a ceiling, but I don't think that 12 games a week would stretch it.
Also, the AFL may save money through abolishing end of year dividends, although they may need to meet the cost of prizemoney, which would need to be a form of income for the clubs, on top of any monies they raise through subscritions/sponsorship/other income streams etc...

By no means am I saying my system is perfect- but the foundations should be solid enough to launch from, but as I said, this won't happen, there are too many people comfortable with the current set up, as imperfect as it is.

[JK]

I've always agreed with you on this one Punky, however I kinda think the ship has sailed on it now, and it probably needed to to be put in place when the VFL first looked at expansion.

[Hondo]

Punky, problems with your idea (this gets raised regularly by 5AA callers):

- too hard to lock in TV rights deals when you don't know which teams are in your premier league and which are in National (ie, teams like WCE, Adelaide or Collingwood would greatly alter the numbers and the TV stations won't lock in funds unless they know the big-ticket teams are in)
- the National league will naturally fall by the way-side in terms of exposure and TV money
- it's too costly for clubs outside the premier league to maintain a readiness for it. How do they recruit players, seek sponsors, and raise enough funds to be able to go up if they earn the right?
- how would the National league clubs recruit the players needed to be competitive when all the best players will want to play Premier league (understandably)?
- how can a Premier league team lock in commitments to new facilities, etc when they are so uncertain about their revenue streams in the next 3 years (ie, if they drop out)?
- TV will only put their money into the competition where it gets a return - drop the Premier league to 12 teams and you drop the TV revenue. There's no way they will "fund" travel costs for National league. The National leage will get its own separate TV rights deal which would be much less than Premier league.
- how does a NAFC or CDFC realistically prepare itself for possible elevation / quantum leap - do they find a generous benefactor or find sponsors on promises of being in a higher league in 5 years time?
- what happens to the SANFL when they suddenly lose CDFC and Glenelg to the National League?

There's too much uncertainty for everyone.

What you'll end up with is a 12 team comp replacing the current 16-18 team comp (some would say that's a good thing) and then a second tier (rate) league made up of teams who won't be able to keep up financially or competitively. The 2 or 3 National league teams who would be strong enough to challenge for a Premier leage spot would be too dominant in that league. This dominance would continue with the clubs that drop down from premier league. Example- PAM in the SANFL in the lead up to the entry of the PAP. As bad as Melbourne FC are currently, they would still belt Central District.

I don't follow EPL closely but I know enough that a handful of teams (using their capitalist system) dominate year after year. Is that what you want?

[Punk Rooster]

Punky, problems with your idea (this gets raised regularly by 5AA callers):

- too hard to lock in TV rights deals when you don't know which teams are in your premier league and which are in National (ie, teams like WCE, Adelaide or Collingwood would greatly alter the numbers and the TV stations won't lock in funds unless they know the big-ticket teams are in)

given your statement at the end, this wouldn't happen- the strong would survive, & strong clubs have strong followings.

- the National league will naturally fall by the way-side in terms of exposure and TV money

It will still clearly be the 2nd best comp in the land, & these clubs will have the numbers- 20,000+ supporters

- it's too costly for clubs outside the premier league to maintain a readiness for it. How do they recruit players, seek sponsors, and raise enough funds to be able to go up if they earn the right?

the best players will want to play in the best League. A player going down with their club could either be sold or loaned. Or clubs can pay their players enough coin to stay, to help them get back up.

- how would the National league clubs recruit the players needed to be competitive when all the best players will want to play Premier league (understandably)?

quite simple- there are only 502 starting positions in the PL. The next 200 players still need somewhere to play.

- how can a Premier league team lock in commitments to new facilities, etc when they are so uncertain about their revenue streams in the next 3 years (ie, if they drop out)?

This is where "ground rationalisation" comes in- PL clubs could have a 12 month deal with the MCG, Gabba, SCG, Football Park, Docklands & WACA. Clubs would need their own training base (ie North Adelaide/Prospect)

- TV will only put their money into the competition where it gets a return - drop the Premier league to 12 teams and you drop the TV revenue. There's no way they will "fund" travel costs for all these extra teams. The National leage will get its own separate TV rights deal which would be much less than Premier league.

Whilst we can't prove either way, you would think there would be significant interest in the 2 top levels of Australian Rules Football, to justify the dollars the League would need to cover travel.

- how does a NAFC or CDFC realistically prepare itself for possible elevation / quantum leap - do they find a generous benefactor or find sponsors on promises of being in a higher league in 5 years time?
- what happens to the SANFL when they suddenly lose CDFC and Glenelg to the National League?

Well, that is in the individual clubs' own hands- those that want it bad enough will at least have the opportunity, something they don't have now. Central arguably have the structure & discipline, & should they present a business plan to the corporate world, may recieve the necessary funding to achieve their objective.

There's too much uncertainty for everyone.

is this a bad thing? Who wants to see Frmantle float around between 9-14 ad infinitum?

What you'll end up with is a 12 team comp replacing the current 16-18 team comp (some would say that's a good thing) and then a second tier (rate) league made up of teams who won't be able to keep up financially or competitively. You could be signalling the death-knell of some of these clubs. The 2 or 3 National league teams who would be strong enough to challenge for a Premier leage spot would be too dominant in that league. This dominance would continue with the clubs that drop down from premier league. Example- PAM in the SANFL in the lead up to the entry of the PAP. As bad as Melbourne FC are currently, they would still belt Central District.

I don't follow EPL closely but I know enough that a handful of teams (using their capitalist system) dominate year after year. Is that what you want?

I think a top level 12 club competition is ideal, as many people would agree. A second tier comp doesn't necessarily mean a second rate comp- apart from not playing against PL sides like Collingwood, Adelaide etc..., there would be not too much difference to the gulf that exists between top 4 & bottom 4 teams now.. As for the gap between established (current) AFL sides, this would surely even out, as weak clubs are replaced by potentially stronger ones...

My proposal is definately not utopian, but offers opportunity to all clubs, & achieves a fairer draw for all. Although, the Crows/Power/Lions/Swans/Eagles would be travellling every 2nd week, but are guaranteed 1 home & 1 away game against their opponent- something they're not guaranteed now.

[Hondo]

I hear you Punky but do you really want the WCE, Collingwood, Crows, Carlton and Essendon fighting it out each year for the premiership. Each year, every year because no-one else can pull the same $$$???

Why wouldn't you just expand the league to 24 teams and be done with it? Then everyone knows where they stand - supporters, clubs, sponsors, the AFL, the TV stations, everyone.

They had a TV person on the radio when I heard this theory get debated and they said that there would be a large drop-off in TV revenue for the AFL if a 2 tiered comp was created with a relegation system. TV stations need more certainty otherwise they'll re-negotiate TV rights every season based on who's in and who's out. Cubs would have to negotiate contracts with their players every year too which will further increase costs. More teams + more runnings costs + less TV $$$ is not a good business model. The vibe was not to under-estimate the gap in TV revenue between the top tier league and the second tier. So much of a gap it would become almost impossible for teams in the bottom 12 to keep up. Then they'll die a slow death leaving you with the original 12.

Your theory calls for 24 teams who have to be Premier league ready, but only 12 getting the revenue to justify the cost. Plus another 6-12 teams who have to invest large sums of $$ on the rough chance they might get their chance.

Think you are making it too hard for not much benefit. Plus you may as well fold the state leagues now and let the Amateur comps take over.

Just IMO. Good debate tho!

[Dirko]

Enjoyable reading. As someone who follows the promotion/relegation battles in the EPL/Championship etc etc, the one big thing I cannot see working is, not enough quality players to keep the teams pushing for promotion/or to avoid relegation.

The reason the promotion/relegation system works in the Soccer world is that, there are enough players to top up promoted teams. Hull City for example going up to the Premier League, will, if they are serious, buy & turn over probably half their squad. They can obtain players WORLDWIDE. As long as they can pay the transfer fee, and meet obligations with the FA. ATM there is no cap on foreign players playing for a side in the EPL, so hence a team like Arsenal can field a totally foreign side.

With the AFL, there would not be enough player depth to keep the standard high. With the NRL, Super 14's & A-League all fighting for the same thing there is a hell of a lot of competition for the almighty dollar as well as players/facilities etc etc...

IF and that's a big IF, AFL became the most played sport in Queensland & NSW, as well as maintaining the solid base in the other states it could work, but as QLD & NSW are a NRL heartland, and Soccer making inroads I couldn't see that happening....

Good thoughts behind the posts

[Punk Rooster]

As I said, by no means is my suggestion perfect- far from it.
But it does throw out a few possibilities of making Australian Rules a united code, which I don't believe it currently is.
It is also about putting structure in place & possibly stream-lining administration of the sport.

For this to work, we would need adminstrators of the game to get outside thier comfort zone & possibly make some unpopular decisions (initially).
We will only know if we sink or swim if we try it.

[Sojourner]

As I said, by no means is my suggestion perfect- far from it.
But it does throw out a few possibilities of making Australian Rules a united code, which I don't believe it currently is.
It is also about putting structure in place & possibly stream-lining administration of the sport.

For this to work, we would need adminstrators of the game to get outside thier comfort zone & possibly make some unpopular decisions (initially).
We will only know if we sink or swim if we try it.

I think it definatley could work, it should be pointed out that in EPL you only get relegated if you meet certain criteria based around the viability of the club and having access to an appropriate stadium. Considering each of the SANFL clubs own a share of Football Park that is prett much sorted there and then.

If people are worried about a select group of teams dominating, then retain the salary cap in the system to keep it the same as now, just increase the competition by allowing more sides access into it!

What I do wish is that the State Government had of made a rule that Poker Machines were Club Only as they were in NSW. If the SANFL Clubs were all as big as the Casino as the leagues clubs in NSW are, there would be a very good chance of competing in something like that.

[Mr66]

Third SA AFL club = Death of SANFL.

[Wedgie]

Third SA AFL club = Re-birth of SANFL.

[Mr66]

"Please Explain" (Say with nasally North Queensland accent )

[Wedgie]

"Please Explain" (Say with nasally North Queensland accent )

If a 2nd AFL club was done right it would have promoted and enhanced the game in this state, history shows it was done dreadfully and sent the sport backwards.
A 3rd club could easily do what a 2nd club should have done if run correctly and send the sport forwards in this state as opposed to sending it backwards.