The National Second Tier Review Thread

[Benchwarmer]

The Herald-Sun reported the other day that a national reserves competition was ruled out and that Victorian AFL clubs have been asked how they think the second tier should operate in Victoria.

Carlton and Preston (a.k.a. the Northern Bullants) will split at the end of the year.

Collingwood will review their alignment with Williamstown at the end of the season despite a further year running in their agreement.

It is expected that the review should have been completed "in a few weeks time" says David Matthews, the AFL Game Development General Manager.

Geelong is the only AFL team with a seperate VFL side and Frankston and Port Melbourne are the only stand-alone VFL sides. Tasmania are considering whether to move to the SANFL or remain in the VFL.

[Benchwarmer]

By the way, it was announced in May that the WAFL structure would not be altered.

About four weeks ago, the AFL NT expressed an interest in entering a side in the WAFL from 2008.

There have been no notable developments on that front since then apart from the Bunbury-based South West Football League offering to enter a Colts side to be matched with the mooted Alice Springs-based side in the fixture and play their matches out of Hands Oval, Bunbury.

[Dirko]

I think the Victorian clubs should run a ressies comp
With the 10 AFL teams in VIC, a 10 team ressies comp would be
viable...
Use the "old" suburban grounds like Princes Park, Windy Hill
Moorabbin, Arden St etc etc..
Let the clubs have a top up list to ensure sufficient numbers...

[pipers]

I think the Victorian clubs should run a ressies comp
With the 10 AFL teams in VIC, a 10 team ressies comp would be
viable...
Use the "old" suburban grounds like Princes Park, Windy Hill
Moorabbin, Arden St etc etc..
Let the clubs have a top up list to ensure sufficient numbers...

Why?

The "old" VFL clubs chose to become the AFL clubs of today...

And who would watch those games anyway? At least clubs like Williamstown, Port Melbourne etc have some history and a (semi) independant supporter base.

The "new" VFL should be run in exactly the same way as the SANFL and WAFL, with no links between its clubs and the AFL clubs.

I think this would please all the VFL clubs. Basically they all got shafted when they "aligned" with the AFL outfits.

[Benchwarmer]

Fat Alberton, as you'd know the answer to that signature is ... "What? Geoff's got two brothers, no sisters and his old man just celebrated his 50th birthday last week!"

Great movie, The Club!

[Benchwarmer]

The VFA was irrepairably damaged in 1995 and will never be the same again.

In all honesty, the VFL should keep its name and act as a 10-team Reserves competition as sjab suggested. As a result, the Tassie Devils will either move to the SANFL or dissolve (which is probably better for the pathetic state of the SFL in Hobart).

The ten clubs left in the lurch (Box Hill, Casey, Coburg, Frankston, North Ballarat, Northern Bullants, Port Melbourne, Sandringham, Werribee, Williamstown) will more than likely re-form the VFA and could possibly add two clubs (probably out of Heidelberg, Noble Park and Vermont) to make a 12-team competition.

In the past it has been suggested that the leading metro sides form a "Premier League", but should this happen, I can't really see clubs like the above three plus Balwyn, Keilor and the like moving from suburban Division 1 (currently a "second-tier" comp in Victoria) to a "VFA Division 2" (a third-tier competition behind the VFL and VFA Div 1).

[Aerie]

The only solution that would be fair, viable and productive would be to cut the number of Victorian teams in the national competition. Otherwise, I can't see what else they can do besides what they're doing at the moment.

Where are extra players going to come from to facilitate Vic AFL reserves sides, plus another VFA competition? What would this do to the quality of football and how would these players get paid? I can see, if they are going to change anything, the current VFL (old VFA) clubs are going to get shafted. Much like in Tasmania I suppose.

There is no simple solution. The Vic AFL clubs and corporates can't have their cake and eat it too. They systematically destroyed a lot of football outside of Victoria. If they want to retain their 10 current clubs they need to work with and around other states and leagues. Otherwise football below the top level will fall to pieces everywhere.

PS. It is heartening to see the stance the Crows and Power have made with regards to this subject. It appears the leaders at these clubs do have the best interests of football in South Australia in mind when making their decisions. Possibly a benefit of being owned by the SANFL. Thank god for that.

[Grahaml]

I hope the VFL sticks with the AFL reserves idea. There's no doubt this weakens the standard of the VFL. Who wants to run a team whose primary focus is getting AFL listed players up and running. They don't play the best players in the best positions, and what player would want some to lose their position because an AFL player was coming through. It would be like North having to move Alleway from CHF if the Crows wanted Perrie to play there. The best system for the AFL clubs is to copy the SANFL and go with a dedicated process the players go through. Dissolve the under 18 comp, and bring in an underage comp for the VFL clubs to take its place. Do a mini draft for the VFL clubs for any interstate recruits and players and make them force their way into independant self serving clubs through hard work and improving. I think this is the best way to develop players. SA has a poor record at under 18 comps, so you could say that at that age we're behind the other states, but the players drafted from SA go on after that better than the recruits from other states because of the grounding they get before they get drafted IMHO. I also think we develop interstate recruits well here by making them work their way into a league team rather than gifting them a spot. We have the best system, and the AFL would be silly not to copy it. Personally, I like having the best system and the second best comp so I hope they don't.

[Benchwarmer]

Having lived in Victoria until 11 months ago, anyone who advocates anything less than 10 Victorian clubs in the AFL will get howled down ... even if, and in this situation it is most of the time, it is a highly logical opinion.

John Elliott had the right idea in doing the groundwork for organising a "breakaway national league" with 10 sides initially (6 Vic, 2 SA and 2 WA), but the then-VFL buggered up the effective implementation by hijacking the idea and tacking on half a dozen bankrupt VFL clubs to the six financial clubs as we embarked on the nationalisation of Aussie Rules.

One of the few things that Elliott was 100% correct in doing over the years.

[Grahaml]

If Carlton had Elliott at the helm when they got done for salary cap breaches he was going to challenge the AFL draft and Salary cap as a restraint of trade. He would have won as well, because both clearly are restraints of trade. The AFL would have backed down and given the blues a small fine and not ripped their draft picks off them. Elliott was far from the worst president going around and did many good things for Carlton and was usually on the better side of any argument.

[Benchwarmer]

His biggest problem was sniping away at other clubs (two that leap to mind are the spray he gave Essendon after in the 1999 PF about being draft cheaters, as well as pitying the "poor state" of the Bulldogs about 8 years ago) rather than running his own club.

The draft is a grey area - no club has fought it 16 years after the NSWRL one was scuttled - but everyone knows that it is good for an equalised competition and stops teams going broke buying players. I'm not a huge fan of the draft but I accept that it is a necessary component for an exciting and equalised competition.

[Wedgie]

I find it weird that not more than 100 years ago the VFA was the strongest comp in Victoria, you'd really feel shafted if you followed a VFA team, mind you some SAFA fans could feel the same way.
Is it a coincidence that Geelong are the only club to have their own reserves and are comfortably top of the table?
I think it is but its interesting none the less.
Personally I don't think the WA or SA AFL sides have any more advantage than the Victorian clubs at the moment, they would get just as much input into what their players do in VFL sides as to what the Power and Crows do with their players in the SANFL.
I think both comps are pretty well on a par when it comes to standards too.
One of the few times Ive agreed with KG in that I think its the way that a lot of these Victorian sides are run, except for some of the big boys they don't have the same sort of professionalism as some of the Interstate sides IMHO.

[Psyber]

A VFL competiton as reserves for the Vic AFL teams may add to the Victorian poaching of SANFL and WAFL players and harm those leagues. They may attempt to avoid the draft by saying they were elevating "our" reserves players. [That is those earlier recruited outside the draft system.]

The VFL would be promoted as one tier down from AFL, with SANFL and WAFL described in the national mediia as the third and fourth levels - regardless of truth.

[Wedgie]

A VFL competiton as reserves for the Vic AFL teams may add to the Victorian poaching of SANFL and WAFL players and harm those leagues. They may attempt to avoid the draft by saying they were elevating "our" reserves players. [That is those earlier recruited outside the draft system.]

The VFL would be promoted as one tier down from AFL, with SANFL and WAFL described in the national mediia as the third and fourth levels - regardless of truth.

Good point and it would make the interstate matches pretty useless and a waste of time IMHO if we're playing 3rd tier Victorians in state matches.

[pipers]

The best system for the AFL clubs is to copy the SANFL and go with a dedicated process the players go through. Dissolve the under 18 comp, and bring in an underage comp for the VFL clubs to take its place. Do a mini draft for the VFL clubs for any interstate recruits and players and make them force their way into independant self serving clubs through hard work and improving. I think this is the best way to develop players.

.

Totally agree, and basically what I was saying above. Also, for the Vic-based AFL clubs to have the luxury of "feeder" clubs is unfair on the non-Vico AFL clubs too. As it happens, I don't care, because frankly the AFL shits me to tears and one day it will eat itself, but I find it funny that some SA footy followers spend so much time arguing that the AFL has a bias to its Vic members. They really don't need to argue this point as it is uncontestable. Hell the AFL don't even try to disguise it. It's not a conspiracy. It's a blatant piss-take...

We have the best system, and the AFL would be silly not to copy it. Personally, I like having the best system and the second best comp so I hope they don't.

LOL!

[Strawb]

Here goes the AFL killing another comp. I prefer the VFL the way that it is and it does work but what we need is for every AFL club to have a VFL as a partner as it is done now with Geelong having North Ballarat or Werribee. It would work that way you watch the clubs will do this for one year celebrating 150 years of football complain it is costing them too much then go back to having VFL clubs.

[Bluedemon]

I find it weird that not more than 100 years ago the VFA was the strongest comp in Victoria, you'd really feel shafted if you followed a VFA team, mind you some SAFA fans could feel the same way.
Is it a coincidence that Geelong are the only club to have their own reserves and are comfortably top of the table?
I think it is but its interesting none the less.
Personally I don't think the WA or SA AFL sides have any more advantage than the Victorian clubs at the moment, they would get just as much input into what their players do in VFL sides as to what the Power and Crows do with their players in the SANFL.
I think both comps are pretty well on a par when it comes to standards too.
One of the few times Ive agreed with KG in that I think its the way that a lot of these Victorian sides are run, except for some of the big boys they don't have the same sort of professionalism as some of the Interstate sides IMHO.

dont forget that they are also top of the AFL. dont change the sanfl comp though, as they say dont change what you cant fix.

[Benchwarmer]

I suppose you would have a valid argument if you said that Geelong (the only AFL team without an alignment to a former VFA side) are the top team in the VFL because they have the stability of having 100% of the decision making progress at the VFL club.

They are virtually playing as a VFL or AFL Reserves/VSFL side like everyone else used to against teams that are a mish-mash of two clubs in one. The other clubs have to balance the AFL players with their own players and juggle a number of issues that cannot realisitically be resolved in the same way that the Cats can.

IMO, I can see a clean split back to the pre-1996 days. The AFL Reserves and Under 19 sides should re-form under the VFL umbrella and being administered by the AFL. As a result, Tassie would go to the SANFL or dissolve into the SFL in Hobart, the old VFA clubs would reclaim the Association's name and be administered by AFL Victoria - either that or the undesirable or the unfathomable - Sandy to the SFL, Casey and Frankston to the MPNFL, Box Hill to the EFL, Preston to the NFL, Port, Willy and Werribee to the WRFL, North Ballarat to the Ballarat FL and the Bendigo Bombers would probably dissolve back into the Bendigo FL.

I can't see the TAC Cup being dismantled as FV/AFLV would have to admit that the system is wrong.

I don't see the changes in Victoria affecting the SANFL or WAFL too much as these two leagues are in better shape on and off the field than in Victoria.

[pipers]

I wrote a really detailed and sensible post about this last night, but when I hit submit I got the "back in a minute" page.

F_cked if I'm going to write it all out again, but in short it said something like this...

How and when did Demetriou and the AFL come to the conclusion that they have custodial rights over the game? The AFL is merely one stakeholder and should be on an equal footing with each of the state leagues when it comes to the structure, operations and administration of the game across the country.

A nationally consistent approach would be preferable, but we haven't got this in law enforcement, tax, health or education, so I very much doubt that football will achieve it.

Hands off the SANFL!

[therisingblues]

I wrote a really detailed and sensible post about this last night, but when I hit submit I got the "back in a minute" page.

F_cked if I'm going to write it all out again, but in short it said something like this...

How and when did Demetriou and the AFL come to the conclusion that they have custodial rights over the game? The AFL is merely one stakeholder and should be on an equal footing with each of the state leagues when it comes to the structure, operations and administration of the game across the country.

A nationally consistent approach would be preferable, but we haven't got this in law enforcement, tax, health or education, so I very much doubt that football will achieve it.

Hands off the SANFL!

Hear! Hear! Give the fat boy a cigar! Well said old son.