AFL expansion effects on SANFL

[once_were_warriors]

A third side definitley possible in Adelaide.

I would think it would need to be set up ala the Crows as Port hasn't set the world on fire with membership due to being primarily only supported by those that followed Port Magpies.

If the AFL got rid of the requirement for the clubs having to pay 97% of salary cap then I think a club should be able to run on turnover of 15mil. Shock horror if an AFL club could have maybe have only a senior coach and three assistants.

I personally can only follow WWTFC with any passion, AFl I'll watch if its going to be a good game , don't care who wins. ( Provided Port,Collingwood,Carlton and Essendon don't win a premiship I'm happy).

SANFL comp is in a strong position now and the future. Remember the 9 SANFL clubs combined still turn over more revenue than the two Adelaide AFL Clubs.

As long as the SANFL control the AFL licenses then the Nine SANFL clubs and footy in Sth Australia will be in a good shape.

[Hondo]

Like crows fans telling us what is good for the SANFL. Sure you dont have an angle on what you perceive is the best. Ill gladly admit to having one angle on my point of views. The SANFLS.

I know you cant say the same. Otherwise you wouldnt be arguing against the SANFL expanding into the elite aussie rules competition in the land, On an SANFL website. Would you ???

"Crows fans" and "us" .... mmmm here we go again, I think if we keep this going we'll add 20 pages to the thread and still be where we are now. If its one or the other to you, then we'll never agree!

I support our great game .... all levels, all forms. If SANFL domination of Australian football is best for the sport, then I'll support it 100%.

Lets agree to disagree

Hendo

[Jar Man Out]

SANFL fans arent crows fans Hondo simple as that.

As a North / Crows fan where would you prefer to see Nick Gill play ????? Why ????

As a Centrals supporter as clearly stated I couldnt care less if Brad Symes plays any AFL games this year. Eventhough it is the best thing for his career . Why Centrals fan.

Cant explain it to you any clearer.

[Jar Man Out]

A third side definitley possible in Adelaide.

I would think it would need to be set up ala the Crows as Port hasn't set the world on fire with membership due to being primarily only supported by those that followed Port Magpies.

If the AFL got rid of the requirement for the clubs having to pay 97% of salary cap then I think a club should be able to run on turnover of 15mil. Shock horror if an AFL club could have maybe have only a senior coach and three assistants.

I personally can only follow WWTFC with any passion, AFl I'll watch if its going to be a good game , don't care who wins. ( Provided Port,Collingwood,Carlton and Essendon don't win a premiship I'm happy).

SANFL comp is in a strong position now and the future. Remember the 9 SANFL clubs combined still turn over more revenue than the two Adelaide AFL Clubs.

As long as the SANFL control the AFL licenses then the Nine SANFL clubs and footy in Sth Australia will be in a good shape.

100% agree.

[SimonH]

So just to clarify Simon H. Melbourne 8 teams in 3.7 population is a great set up.

WHilst 3 teams in Adelaide a population on 1.2 mill. Would be a disaster.
...
Just wanted to point out how contradictory the population argument is.

Think I have.

Gee, you're not very good at that arguing thing, are you? Having fudged an argument based on bodgy figures, then when the real ones are put in front of you, you just change the numbers and say, 'See, just like I was saying all along.'

Let's take this very slowly:
1. 8 Melbourne teams, one of which would be either a merged side or a vacancy created due to relocation (there are 9 now, remember), would be sharing over 450,000 people each, plus the natural advantages of at least 80 years of history (over 100 for most of them) and as a result, very strong community identity, established infrastructure etc. The hard-heads recognise that 8 teams is the most that Melbourne, an absolutely footy-mad city, can support long-term.
2. 3 Adelaide teams would be sharing fewer than 400,000 people each. One of them would be an absolute start-up with no natural supporter base (it could not be another Port Adelaide), and all of the costs and difficulties associated with that.

So: yes. 8 teams in Melbourne is likely to be sustainable and 3 in Adelaide would probably be a financial black hole for the new start-up club (while of course also hurting the Clones and Pahhhhr). Plus Melbourne's population is growing at a far faster rate than Adelaide's; so in the long term, things will get relatively better for the 8 Melbourne clubs, and worse for the 3 Adelaide ones.

By the way: you're completely wrong in your guess of the AFL team I support. But I have no doubt you'll keep bringing up Crows references in every response anyway, as it's your substitute for rational argument.

Third team could be for those who simply do not support Port or The Adelaide Football Club Hendo. Thought that would be pretty obvious.

Third Team could also be made up of SANFL clubs supporters or a combination of two SANFL clubs supporters. Who knows how it will be set up??? All I know is people saying "not possible" need to looking into it further.

You are aware AFL team all over Australia have SOuth Australian Members Hendo. We just dont go for two teams.

Not news to me that people support both SANFL/AFL. I just dont think its truly possible to be done. For example Im a central supporter and am a huge fan of Brad Symes. Do you think I want Symesy to star for the crows this year or play for Centrals.

See the conflict.

Like crows fans telling us what is good for the SANFL. Sure you dont have an angle on what you perceive is the best. Ill gladly admit to having one angle on my point of views. The SANFLS.

I know you cant say the same. Otherwise you wouldnt be arguing against the SANFL expanding into the elite aussie rules competition in the land, On an SANFL website. Would you ???

All of your possible scenarios have thing in common: the SANFL competition would be cannibalised and decimated to make this 3rd AFL club's players, and to recruit its supporters. Which is absolutely bleeding obvious, as you tacitly admit when you try to identify this 3rd club's supporter base: "Third team could be for those who simply do not support Port or The Adelaide Football Club". Gee, I wonder what kind of footy is followed by almost all of the footy fans in SA who don't barrack for the Crows or Power?

Your claim that your only concern in this argument, is the good of the SANFL, is just hilarious. "... the SANFL expanding into the elite aussie rules competition in the land" is a meaningless weasel-phrase. What are you trying to say? In terms of club ownership by the SANFL administration, the SANFL already has 1.5 clubs in the AFL. So you can't mean that. Do you mean that the 9 SANFL clubs are going to singlehandedly take on, and defeat, the evil AFL empire comprising 16/18 clubs, to become the #1 comp in the land? Of course not. Is what you really mean 'all of the SANFL clubs could/should get together to launch a single team in the AFL competition (wholly owned, operated, franchised and controlled by the AFL out of Melbourne) with the result that the SANFL competition would be reduced to a 17-year-olds and amateurs feeder competition lucky to drag a few hundred people along'? How anyone could claim with a straight face that this is in the interests of the SANFL, is beyond me. Or do you have no idea what you meant?

It's important to be clear what people care about when they hear the acronym 'SANFL'. They don't (or shouldn't) mainly care about an administration pulling healthy profits from its full ownership of a financially successful AFL franchise. They care about the 9 clubs in the local league comp. I don't barrack for the SANFL administration; I barrack for a club in the SANFL competition. And I defy anyone to come up with any proposal, business model, concept or idea for a 3rd AFL team in SA, that doesn't have a massive negative effect on the SANFL competition.

If the only counter-arguments are, "It won't affect pure SANFL fans", and "It might force some SANFL/AFL fans to make a choice", then they're both euphemisms for the death of the competition. Weed out all of the uncertain, the 5AA listeners, the dilettantes, the casual followers, the AFL fans, and ensure that the SANFL is restricted to hard-core fans who only care about going to see their SANFL club play and absolutely nothing else: that's the most efficient way of driving numbers down to less than half of what they are now. In fact, I suggest car searches and body frisks at the entrance to ovals: if fans are found with a membership card, a sticker, one bit of AFL memorabilia, they're refused entry and banned for the season. Far from kids being allowed into grounds free, they should be stopped from entering: you can't watch with true passion unless you've got at least 20 years of fanatical following behind you, and anyone under 18 is too young to qualify.

Hopefully eventually we can identify and get rid of everyone who doesn't have your passion and single-mindedness, and there will be just one SANFL supporter in SA: Jar Man Out.

[Jar Man Out]

450000 on average on Melbourne GOLD SET UP.

400000 on average in Adelaide unsustainable.

thats right Melbounre has got football tradition. Awesome SANFL fan.
Hope I havent fudged your argument Simon cos you have certasinly proven mine mate.

So the creation of a third AFL team will make the SANFL into a feeder league. Will have devastating effects on our crowds , players the level of exposure and standard of SANFL football. And this can not be tolerated.

So why do we have one AFL team SimonH ?????

Or are you willing to accept the devastating effect the two current teams are having on the comp just not three. ????

Its not a throw away line that football clubs should want to compete in the elite competition for their sport either. Its what all professional football clubs should aspire to.

[SimonH]

450000 on average on Melbourne GOLD SET UP.

400000 on average in Adelaide unsustainable.

thats right Melbounre has got football tradition. Awesome SANFL fan.
Hope I havent fudged your argument Simon cos you have certasinly proven mine mate.

What a surprise that you still flunked maths. The figures are actually more than 450,000, and less than 400,000. If you can't see that there's a substantial difference between these 2 figures, then I'd love to be buying a house off you. I notice you failed to rebut the point about the massive advantage of an existing club with a long continuous history, compared with a new startup. And you also failed logic. Since when did "8 is the most clubs that Melbourne can sustain" become "GOLD SET UP"? Ah, that's right, in the fevered imagination of Jar Man Out.

So the creation of a third AFL team will make the SANFL into a feeder league. Will have devastating effects on our crowds , players the level of exposure and standard of SANFL football. And this can not be tolerated.

So why do we have one AFL team SimonH ?????

Or are you willing to accept the devastating effect the two current teams are having on the comp just not three. ????

Just what I'd expect. Having run out of straw men in the main argument, you try to start an irrelevant side argument. I at least congratulate you for not dragging out 'You're only saying that 'cos you're a Crows supporter' again. Gee, it's hard to work out whether the introduction of SA based AFL teams had a negative effect on the SANFL's attendances, standards and profile, isn't it? Really hard topic to find any data on.

But it happened. Deal with it. You can't change the past. There is no point in debating whether there should be 2 AFL sides based in SA. At this point in history, you might as well debate whether income tax should be abolished as a bad idea. And it's a classic logical fallacy to say "well, if people want to have that silly old income tax, then they must like a 60% rate even better than a 40% rate". Just the same with your argument that 'If we don't abolish the 2 existing AFL clubs, then we might as well have a 3rd'.

Its not a throw away line that football clubs should want to compete in the elite competition for their sport either. Its what all professional football clubs should aspire to.

Funny if it's not a throwaway line; you still haven't explained what you are actually advocating in practical terms. If "all professional football clubs" should aspire to be in "the elite competition" (do you mean 'the AFL' by this? Don't be shy-- spell it out), then I suppose you reckon that there should be 9 more SA teams joining the AFL, and the SANFL thereby declare itself redundant? But you have only the interests of the SANFL at heart, of course.

Here's a challenge: forget the insults and meaningless rhetoric. If you actually have a strong passion for SA footy and vision for its future, like you seem to want people to believe you have: spell out an actual proposal of what you think the SANFL and its clubs should do over the next decade.

[Jar Man Out]

2007 Austrlian Bureau OF Statistics

Population for Victoria 5.2 mill. Which has 10 AFL teams.
5200000 per afl team.

Population of SA is 1.58 mill. Which has 2 AFL teams.
7900000 per afl team.

http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/mf/3101.0/

keep convincing yourself SImonH. It appears to be what you are good at.

so Victorian clubs have a "natural advantage " laughable SimonH. Yet again you contradict yourself. If victorian clubs hold this advantage why is it essential two victorian teams relocate. Why dont we dismerge SOuth Melbourne and Fitzroy and give rebirth to University . These clubs would have "natural advantage" in the afl after all.

Me answer to you. You have a rather high opinion of yourself SimonH.

YOu still havent answered my question. You say we should not invest in a 3rd AFL team because it will have a negative influence on the playing standards, exposure and $$$ in the SANFL.

So why is it OK in your opinion to accept these downfalls for the current two afl clubs ???? but in no way should it be tolerated for a third afl club ???? please explain without rambling about income tax.

Once you believed you have convinced yourself with answers let me know.

Then convince yourself on objections to oncewewerewarriors post in favour of a third team. or keep ignoring that post because he makes some damn good points. Let me know if you need me to explain them to you.

[Hondo]

YOu still havent answered my question. You say we should not invest in a 3rd AFL team because it will have a negative influence on the playing standards, exposure and $$$ in the SANFL.

So why is it OK in your opinion to accept these downfalls for the current two afl clubs ???? but in no way should it be tolerated for a third afl club ???? please explain without rambling about income tax.

I am not answering for SimonH here

IMO - 2 AFL teams in Adelaide is a manageable number for the time being because it means 1 AFL game in Adelaide each week and the other on TV so hopefully people still have time & money to go to SANFL. It means 1 game of AFL footy played in Adelaide every week.

Having a second AFL game in Adelaide every second week will change the landscape massively. There's only so many potential AFL football supporters and not many of those don't already support an AFL team. A major issue as I see it is where the new team would get its supporter base from unless it comes from existing SANFL fans who hate the Crows and Port – problem being they are supporters we don’t want to lose to the SANFL.

I could only see it working if another SANFL club moved up. 20 years ago you would say it would be Norwood, today probably Centrals. But is that enough for 30,000 members and what then happens to Centrals in the SANFL (hypothetically)? Alternatively, a club tied to a regional area like down South but again most of them support the Crows already.

So to me there's 2 issues - 1) impact on SANFL (you say the situation couldn't get any worse than it is - I say it could) and 2) how this new club will survive financially in a crowded market. We are different to Melbourne in that the existing VFL clubs simply moved into the AFL retaining their supporter bases. In SA, we have our ties to SANFL clubs and the AFL teams are coming in over the top scrambling to find new supporters.

This is nothing to do with being a Crows supporter in fact I think the Power would be more nervous about a 3rd AFL team taking members away. Saying that, both teams would argue strongly against it and who can blame them if there isn't enough $, supporters and sponsors to go around 3 clubs? JMO, it comes down to whether 3 AFL Adelaide-based clubs can be profitable - IMO its a real stretch.

Remember the whole point of this thread to begin with was how 2 new teams in other states would impact the SANFL, let alone a new teams BASED in SA.

[Punk Rooster]

I agree with Honda-
No matter what happens, the Crows will be the #1 supported AFL club in this state, the Power would be 2nd, & the "new club" 3rd.
The 3rd club would reel in people who aren't tied to either club to strongly, but overall would struggle.
I don't see WA demanding a 3rd AFL side any time soon...

[Jar Man Out]

I agree with Honda-
No matter what happens, the Crows will be the #1 supported AFL club in this state, the Power would be 2nd, & the "new club" 3rd.
The 3rd club would reel in people who aren't tied to either club to strongly, but overall would struggle.
I don't see WA demanding a 3rd AFL side any time soon...

so no under no circumstances could a NORTH ADELAIDE KANGAROOS or a NORTH MELBOURNE ROOSTERS exist. Based out of both Melbourne and Adelaide.

they move the unprofitable home game for Nth Melb (expected crowds less than 35000 at Telstra Dome) to Adelaide Oval to Maximise the clubs attendance. ie North vs Port/Crows played at sold out Adelaide oval instead of 18000 at telstra. Dont have to sell home games to interstate clubs anymore as you have your own interstate base where you should get 15000-20000 at adelaide oval easily.

seeing as its imperative clubs leave melbourne ????

Im sure the Kangaroos would love to have a set up like Grand North let alone 2. Sure they wouldnt knock back Clipsal/Mistral as a sponsor either. Plus the extra 3000 members. Seeing that dont have to move their home base just potentially expand on it. Could be win win.

North Adelaide is an awesome club and would have easily made more profit than the power over the last 5 years. Just an idea.

if when we had two games of AFL here on a weekend the SANFL could actually play double headers and use some leverage of the afl
clubs/crowds. why dont we play double headers again ??? hypothetically roosters before the North AFL game. Maggies before the Power and for the Crows. MAybe thats the problem.

[Punk Rooster]

JMO, un-twist your knickers- I agreed with 1 point that Honda made...

[Jar Man Out]

JMO, un-twist your knickers- I agreed with 1 point that Honda made...

not having a crack at you at all Punky. If it seems like I am i apologise.

Just thought Id throw an idea out about how a 3rd club could easily be invented for those saying under no circumstances could it be done.

Crows could easily be replaced aswell. It would take one SANFL board meeting. What about making them the Norwood Crows with Neil Craig as coach and Nathan Bassett as captain. How many crows fans would jump off under this set up. Guarantee 35000 would still go by the years end. Dont think Port would be against this idea either as it could bring some fans to them, Just another idea. It would open up a huge chunk of the market.

I dont think the SANFL should fell obligated to help the crows. What have the Crows done for the SANFL.

Have they objected about the AFL attempts to take Tas and NT away from the SANFL.
Did they lodge an objection about our Under 17s comp being abolsihed (peter rhode did though a victorian).
Why isnt state football being played this year. Cos a crow may get injured and they are way to important for that.

And yet the Crows want the SANFL to protect them. Interesting .

[HeartBeatsTrue]

2007 Austrlian Bureau OF Statistics

Population for Victoria 5.2 mill. Which has 10 AFL teams.
5200000 per afl team.

Population of SA is 1.58 mill. Which has 2 AFL teams.
7900000 per afl team.

LOL at the number of zeros. 5.2 million per team in Vic?? 7.9 million per team in SA??

I'm happy with 2 SA based AFL teams. Let the Crows and Power continue strong while VIC, NSW, and QLD clubs struggle.

[Punk Rooster]

JMO, un-twist your knickers- I agreed with 1 point that Honda made...

not having a crack at you at all Punky. If it seems like I am i apologise.

Just thought Id throw an idea out about how a 3rd club could easily be invented for those saying under no circumstances could it be done.

Crows could easily be replaced aswell. It would take one SANFL board meeting. What about making them the Norwood Crows with Neil Craig as coach and Nathan Bassett as captain. How many crows fans would jump off under this set up. Guarantee 35000 would still go by the years end. Dont think Port would be against this idea either as it could bring some fans to them, Just another idea. It would open up a huge chunk of the market.

I dont think the SANFL should fell obligated to help the crows. What have the Crows done for the SANFL.

Have they objected about the AFL attempts to take Tas and NT away from the SANFL.
Did they lodge an objection about our Under 17s comp being abolsihed (peter rhode did though a victorian).
Why isnt state football being played this year. Cos a crow may get injured and they are way to important for that.

And yet the Crows want the SANFL to protect them. Interesting .

I saw the "praising" of North Adelaide & was immediately suspiscious!

Say North Melbourne & North Adelaide merged (to be called the North Adelaide Roosters ), they would be always 3rd to the Crows (1st) & Port (2nd)- this was the point I agreed with, & would there be enough support to keep the AFL "happy"?
I can only buy so many memberships & threaten so many people to buy one...

[doggies4eva]

I would think that a third Adelaide based team would help the Crows and Port as it would mean potentially another 2 Adelaide based games a year as they would have to play a home and away game against the new team. I doubt that many people would suddenly jump off of their current AFL team in fact it may lead to Crows or Port supporters attending the occasional game with the new team.

The whole question in my mind is financial viability. These suggestions that there is some enormous advantage in having an average population of under 400,000 compared to 450,000 doesn't wash with me. After all Footy Park is full at about 50,000. It is more a quesion about whether a sustainable membership and sponsorship base can be mainatined. Take a look at an AFL set of accounts and see where the main revenue stream comes from - not from game attendance.

Just maybe another team would give the sport a higher profile and attract more grass roots support and therfore potential players (for the AFL and SANFL) after all this is the strategy of having teams in NSW and Queensland - and its working - look at the participation rates from those states.

[Punk Rooster]

North Adelaide for the AFL!

[SimonH]

2007 Austrlian Bureau OF Statistics

Population for Victoria 5.2 mill. Which has 10 AFL teams.
5200000 per afl team.

Population of SA is 1.58 mill. Which has 2 AFL teams.
7900000 per afl team.

http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/mf/3101.0/

keep convincing yourself SImonH. It appears to be what you are good at.

Gee, you've gone to the website-- big start! Try getting accurate figures before you share your genius with the world, on the next topic.

Yep, those are the current figures. And anyone who has sat down and nutted it out, has concluded that Victoria cannot financially support 10 AFL teams in the long term. That's obvious from the fact that, under the guise of 'Competitive Balance Fund', the AFL is ploughing millions of dollars a year, into financially failing clubs that would be unable to pay their debts, and would go belly-up, without the prop-up. But you think that exactly the same clubs to people ratio would work fine in SA. With a new start-up. Shyeeeah right.

so Victorian clubs have a "natural advantage " laughable SimonH. Yet again you contradict yourself. If victorian clubs hold this advantage why is it essential two victorian teams relocate.

See above. Isn't this obvious? Or are you so dim-witted that you are actually unable to process the idea that there are two different factors (the population & finance factor, and the existing club factor) at work on the same topic?

Why dont we dismerge SOuth Melbourne and Fitzroy and give rebirth to University . These clubs would have "natural advantage" in the afl after all.

Do you actually read what you write, before you post it? The advantage is for an existing club, with a current membership base, current players, current administrative headquarters. Again, I can't believe this wouldn't be obvious to anyone who had taken a minute to think about the topic. Oh, and South Melbourne never merged. They moved.

Me answer to you. You have a rather high opinion of yourself SimonH.

The question that I asked of you was:

spell out an actual proposal of what you think the SANFL and its clubs should do over the next decade.

I can picture you now addressing the SANFL board on your vision:
Q: So, Jar Man Out, what do you think we should do to secure the future of SA footy in these uncertain times?
A: SimonH has a rather high opinion of himself.

You sure are the guy with all the answers.

YOu still havent answered my question. You say we should not invest in a 3rd AFL team because it will have a negative influence on the playing standards, exposure and $$$ in the SANFL.

So why is it OK in your opinion to accept these downfalls for the current two afl clubs ???? but in no way should it be tolerated for a third afl club ???? please explain without rambling about income tax.

Once you believed you have convinced yourself with answers let me know.

I'm not sure how much further I can dumb it down. I'll try to keep out any big words:
1. The introduction of the 2 AFL clubs was bad for the SANFL competition. Baaaaaaad.
2. It is pointless debating about abolishing them, changing them, moving them or getting rid of them. Because it just ain't going to happen. At all. Zero chance. None. Nada. Nil. Waste of time.
3. We can't do anything about the 2 existing AFL clubs. But we can do something about whether a 3rd one gets brought in.

If you don't understand these 3 points, please don't write back. Because if you haven't got it by now, you ain't ever going to get it.

Then convince yourself on objections to oncewewerewarriors post in favour of a third team. or keep ignoring that post because he makes some damn good points. Let me know if you need me to explain them to you.

For the love of god, man, poor oncewerewarriors! I can't think of anything meaner than you explaining someone's points for them! No, I can read for myself. His points were:
1. It would need to be a composite/representative/regional side a la the Crows as a SANFL club going into the AFL a la the Pahhhhr would struggle for enough supporters. Completely agree.
2. He thinks that with minor tinkering to the AFL's rules a club should be able to run on a budget of $15 million. Maybe not impossible to run 'a club', but a successful AFL club? I doubt it. Collingwood, for example, turned over about $50 million in 2007. Whereas a relative pauper in Port Adelaide had a turnover of $20-25 million. A brand new club would have to do extensive promotional work to get its membership base up, and would have to do serious recruiting of established players to be competitive (which it would have to be in order to get supporters and sponsors-- a Catch 22). It'd be basically an impossible stretch to do that on $15m pa.
3. As long as the SANFL controls the licenses then footy in SA will be in a good shape. Only half agree. The health of the SANFL the administrative entity, is not the same thing as the health of the SANFL the competition.

[Jar Man Out]

CONTRADICTION: "opposition between two conflicting forces or ideas"

Gee, you've gone to the website-- big start! Try getting accurate figures before you share your genius with the world, on the next topic.

Yep, those are the current figures.

Victoria cannot financially support 10 AFL teams in the long term.

The advantage for an existing Victorian club, current membership base, current players, current administrative headquarters.

some interesting points and counter points you make.

"JMO If you actually have a strong passion for SA footy and vision for its future, like you seem to want people to believe you have: spell out an actual proposal of what you think the SANFL and its clubs should do over the next decade.

YOu sure I haven't answered in a post above. I know the post didnt involve you directly so it probably didnt catch your notice. My bad.

YOu still havent answered my question. You say we should not invest in a 3rd AFL team because it will have a negative influence on the playing standards, exposure and $$$ in the SANFL.
So why is it OK in your opinion to accept these downfalls for the current two afl clubs ???? but in no way should it be tolerated for a third afl club ????

[/quote]

"I'm not sure how much further I can dumb it down. I'll try to keep out any big words:
1. The introduction of the 2 AFL clubs was bad for the SANFL competition. Baaaaaaad.
2. It is pointless debating about abolishing them, changing them, moving them or getting rid of them. Because it just ain't going to happen. At all. Zero chance. None. Nada. Nil. Waste of time.
3. We can't do anything about the 2 existing AFL clubs. But we can do something about whether a 3rd one gets brought in.

excellent points Simon but the question remains. Why should we stop at 3 clubs ???

No need to answer really Simon. Bored of arguing with a what are you 14 - 15 years old. ???

Time to Move on young fella.

FINALLY .

"Maybe not impossible to run 'a club', but a successful AFL club?"

True cant guarantee it will have immediate premiership success. But we finally agree a 3rd club certainly is possible.

[am Bays]

No need to answer really Simon. Bored of arguing with a what are you 14 - 15 years old. ???

Time to Move on young fella.

I know how you feel JMO, I got sick of arguing with a 10 year old on Thursday February 21....