I've been around for a while now so maybe Over the Hill is more appropriate. The SAAFL thread has been warned about my arrival so I think I'll be sticking to DTH. Still hope to keep you guys honest by maintaining a keen interest in the SFL and this forum. Can't let LGIL get away with some of the tripe he comes up with ;)

Isn't that a good thing and how it should be. We want the best players that aren't playing Grade cricket to filter to the A1 clubs so that the premier comp in ATCA is the showcase. APPS and salary cap is why the SAAFL has tightened up between grades. Plus you can't tag a gun batter or bowler!!

Great Presentation Night for the Brighton Bombers tonight. We leave the SFL with a heavy heart after 20 senior and 23 junior seasons. The SFL has provided us with the opportunity to grow our juniors from nothing. We joined in 1994 with 2 junior teams because local high school football folded at the end of 1993 and there was no Metro South JFL back then. After 3 years of junior growth in the SFL we moved our seniors over and our club continued to grow to where we are today. Our decision to re-join the SAAFL is partly due to the junior options now available in our area particularly with the SANFL Juniors comp not to mention the continued challenges we have faced with the Public/Private school demographic of our juniors. Despite some issues with a few problem clubs, the administration of the SAAFL has never been stronger and we believe the timing is right to make the move. The opportunity to enter Division 3 was a faIr offer and will give us a chance to make an immediate impact. We will however miss the strong rivalries and respect we developed with many SFL clubs. It's a pity that plenty of outsiders take pot shots at the SFL on the back of some one sided results because there has always been 8 or 9 SFL clubs that would put most other clubs in SA to shame with how well they are run. Then again, there is an old adage that states you are only as strong as your weakest link so that will continue to be the challenge for the SFL and its clubs.

Our winners tonight:

A grade B & F - Mark Jolly Medal
1st - Will Rivers
2nd - John McPherson
3rd - Todd Johnstone

B grade - Alex Pietrus
C grade - Adam Bettineschi
U18 - Jack Chalmers

A wise former club delegate always advocated for a 16 game season if BYE's were required. This now looks like the only option for 2017. Has to be a final 5 which eliminates clubs being split over 2 venues on the same day (assuming Elim and 1st Semi are played on a Sunday in the first 2 weeks).

I think there is more than one way to structure a final 6 but I think they all involve the concept of highest/lowest ranked winners and losers to determine what happens after week 1 which is a dogs breakfast and a nightmare to explain to players, parents etc. let alone the administrators themselves knowing how it works.

It was hard enough explaining the Saturday/Sunday elements of the final 8, let alone trying to deal with a final six. A final 5 should be used for any 10 or 11 team comp and probably also a 12 team comp.

Brighton High OS and Brighton merged at the end of 1990 to form the Brighton Districts & Old Scholars commonly known as the Brighton Bombers and worked our way from A3 to A1 from 1991 to 1996 before joining the SFL in 1997. The fact that the name Brighton is common across all 3 clubs helps with identity retention plus there were many past-players who played at both clubs back in the day which also helped. In general it has been a very successful merger.

Kenilworth and CLG was a weird merger for the 5 to 6 years it lasted in the 1980's. Apparently they were one-club on the field but still had 2 separate committees and incorporated bodies off the field. Basically it was always intended to be a short-term merge to deal with player shortages across both clubs. I believe Greek Camden was a very similar situation back in the late 1980's until Greek had a short term merge with Henley (which may have been Henley OS before that) and then just became Henley after a few years as Henley Greek.

Not sure how PHOS Camden works because I don't think there was a Camden when Greek departed for Henley and PHOS moved from the back of Plympton High but the Camden name was still retained even though it wasn't really a merger.

An obvious one missed is Payneham Norwood Union. And was Fitzroy a merge or just a re-name of the old Renown Park that had folded a couple of years earlier?

And back in the 80's Port Districts was the merge of co-tenants Semaphore Central and Exeter to join SAFA before coming back to the SAAFL a few years later.

From memory if you've been cleared twice the same season you need permission from both clubs too? As in if he wanted to go to Fitzroy and/or Old Iggies Broadview would have to sign off?

12.10 Any player registered with a Member Club in any one year and who is transferred to another league,
association or Member Club that same year shall only be transferred back to the original Member Club
within that particular year, unless the original Member Club agrees to such other transfer.

If he has been cleared to Modbury why is the clearance still showing pending on sportingpulse? or hasn't it updated yet?
I believe said player needs to register himself online then it goes through.

Correct, since last season the player is the last person in the chain to complete the transfer process and until they action the SportsTG email they sit on the new clubs list as an Inactive Player and the Transfer page still shows it as Pending. Yet another fairly new SportsTG registration process that puts the onus on the player to perform what appears to be a simple task but it's like extracting teeth trying to get many players to do what is required. If they link these messages with Facebook or Twitter, it would be a lot easier.

SFL Final 6 is different to the short lived AFL final 6 and is pretty cut throat for all teams outside the top 2. I'm pretty sure this is how it works which makes you wonder why not settle for a final 5.

Week 1 - 3 v 6 (Sat) & 4 v 5 (Sun) - both losers eliminated
Week 2 - 1 v 2 (Sat) & week 1 winners (Sun)
Week 3 - Loser 1 v 2 versus winner of other week 2 game (Sat)
Week 4 - GF between the last 2 standing

Tonsley Taipans?

Guys, you have to look at the bigger picture of what the fixture man is faced with. Cove plays Marion at Marion in A & B grade. Flaggies are drawn to play Cove in U17 and U15 and the Flaggies Seniors have the BYE so he has kept the 4 Cove Saturday teams together by playing the U17 and U15 games at Marion. In U13 Flaggies are drawn to play CB so it also makes sense in keeping the 3 Flaggies junior teams together by playing this game at Marion as well. So the only team that is mis-placed is the U13 team of CB. Any other permutation would cause more mis-placement so what the fixture man has done is more a case of assisting Cove and Flaggies rather than giving any intended benefit to Marion.

8-}
Thank you DTH for that input I miss your thoughts :X

Always the voice of reason Shoe Boy. You may miss my thoughts but you won't miss playing Brighton in September :D

I see smosh have a few clearances this week? Understand they are looking at relegation but still disappointing to see players pack up and out before season end. Also surprising to see number 33 for plympton looking to go to Hume football league? Good fast little forward, can any one from plympton tell us why?

All of the above are going to leagues that play this weekend. Clearance page doesn't distinguish whether it's a full clearance, permit, temporary transfer etc. so more likely a case of blokes heading home for the long weekend and playing a game whilst home. I know that the Plympton player is from Albury which is Hume League area so I think your post is a case of "easy tiger".

Hence why it was voted down.

One reason why training never got called off when many of us old farts were kids was the inability to send email, text or facebook messages etc. I have coached senior and junior footy and very little gained by training in pouring rain or a quagmire out on the ground. Skilful players adapt to conditions on game day regardless of how often they train in it. But for the sake of routine and discipline, it doesn't mean training has to be called off completely. Coaches can use that time to get the squad in the rooms to go over some things on the whiteboard or with the case of Brighton Oval get the lads to bring their runners and do some grandstand stair runs etc. But at this time of year when the rain usually comes, for U12 to U18 age groups, dropping back to one night per week if you normally train twice isn't a bad thing either. These kids have another thing called school and homework etc. that also has to take some priority.

Very interesting WOS. In Round 7 at Plympton we had the siren blow in an earlier quarter as our player was running into an open goal from 5 metres out. Siren went as the ball left his hand but before it hit the boot. Scores were tied late in game and a Plympton player marks about 30 metres out. Siren sounds before he took the kick which at the time seemed to be a short qtr. goal was scored so they win by 6 points. We did have a timekeeper with the Plympton bloke and I can't recall any dramas about timekeeping irregularities but it is still "very interesting".

People keep getting clearances and permits confused. The public viewable page does not distinguish if its a clearance or permit. What happened on 6 April would have been a Local Interchange Permit to allow this lad to play footy for both Uraidla and Glenunga whilst Uraidla remains his primary club. I believe SACFL Rules say that once a player is over 15 he shouldn't be allowed to play on the same weekend for the 2 clubs. So there might be an issue with 15/16 July but that issue is Uraidla's and the HFL not Glenunga because the C grade game for Uraidla came a day after the A grade game for Glenunga. But that is why the Permit has now probably been revoked because the player and Uraidla breached the conditions of the permit. Glenunga have done nothing wrong other than not making sure their Permit Player was aware of the rules with Permits which has seemingly now cost them his services for the rest of the season.

I think that's the best solution Pag and I would have thought would be the preference of the majority of clubs rather than have their C grades prop up a "quasi" Division 2 concept. The SFL proposal is a case of trying to support the weakest links rather than reinforcing the strongest links.

Come on guys, be sensible. If the proposed model goes ahead (which I doubt anyway). Promotion would not be automatic. If a C grade team won the flag there would be no change. If a Marion or OSBL won the flag they would have to be flogging their opposition all year to be granted promotion. Let's hope certain clubs make the right decision. A club like Mitchell Park made a tough call in the late 90's and they have battled away in the lower AdFL Divs. But they've won a couple of flags and also worked through some tough years but they still exist and have carried on their proud history. History doesn't necessarily judge what level you play at.

Interesting all the talk about travel yet most Country players who actually live in the town they play for have to travel anywhere from 60km to 250km round trip to play every second week not to mention the massive amount of suburban warriors who travel every week to play country footy. I reckon all but 4 or 5 of the Peake A grade team are living locally and I should know because 8 of them have played for Brighton. If a club thinks that travel to any part of metro Adelaide is a major factor in making a decision as to what is best for the immediate future of their club then they may as well shut up shop now.

You can't even get the young blokes of today to exit the changerooms with everything they entered with either after training or after a game. It does my head in what lads leave behind. And the lack of smarts to realise that on game day everyone in that changeroom is wearing the same shorts and socks so don't throw them on the ground or leave them lying around before you hit the shower or wander off to the medical room. I repeat, it does my friggin head in.

The previous posters have been taking the pi$$ MW. Clearly the inference is that Shane Tuck will be taking the reins at Goodwood in 2018. He played in their 2014 and 2015 Premierships and has played the one game this season, but I assume his boxing has taken priority the last 2 years. His brother Travis joined Goodwood this season and has played all season.

How hard is it to do proper research people. I know this is SA Footy where facts get in the way of a good yarn but a quick look on the website shows he played 6 games for CLG before transferring to CBCOC in June. He then played 3 C grade games followed by 3 B grade games for CBCOC. So comfortably qualified to play finals in B grade but a permit needed for C grade if no open selection.

MFC website says Chairman. Probably the same thing under their constitution. Regardless, at what point does the league question the integrity of some of the voting by club umpires. I know the Le Grand business became a running joke but you can't tell me he was a worthy winner every year yet an "untouchable" club was never pulled into line about it.

Also happens to be the Club Chairman. Is Rule Book umpiring for Modbury these days.

I can get close.
1986 A4 Premiers - BHOS. Then sacked the coach after he was nearly sacked mid-year when we were 10-0.

1987 A3 Premiers - Goodwood (beat BHOS by 12 goals in GF).

Goodwood coach was the sacked BHOS coach!!!

News to hand that 3 clubs (no names or current leagues mentioned) have applied to join the AdFL in 2018. 2 have been offered places in the Division 7 Competition with the 3rd denied entry for 2018 but offered conditions they must satisfy for The League to consider them in season 2019.

So is it Marion and OSB/Lonsdale and could the 3rd being made to wait be Hackham again. Of course they may not all be SFL clubs but couldn't imagine it being any other club from outside the SFL.

It's funny how $$$ get mentioned with any Premiership. We had 36 out of 44 in the A & B grade on Saturday that have come through our juniors. That's what success is built on - provided the bit of cream you add are the right fit for the club and it's culture. We only had 4 lads in the A grade Premiership team that weren't with the club last year.

On Friday the boss declared that 2 clubs are currently considering offers of entry into Division 7. No secret it is Marion and OSB/Lonsdale. That should be the end of story as far as 2 up and 2 down goes. But 2 years ago Para Hills win a Div 5 flag and then go into recess for a year, and in recent years other clubs have successfully requested to stay put or be demoted due to massive player losses etc. and there is at least 1 club whose ongoing affiliation is subject to paying another bond so who knows what could unfold. That's what we are enjoying about the AdFL, never a dull moment with some of what happens out in club land.

5 August 2017 - said player has played for the South Reserves at 12 noon at Alberton Oval and on the same day he was listed as playing B grade for Port Noarlunga coincidentally v Morphett Vale. That game has contributed to the 4 games (1A and 3B) he has supposedly played. And the other 2 B grade games appear dodgy because I think South had BYEs those weeks and if he was truly released to play by South then one assumes he would be an automatic A grade selection. The fact he played a B grade game v Marion for no goals and no best players does make you wonder if he even suited up or spent any time on the field.

When will clubs learn. There is a thing called the internet and the SportsTG system that makes all this information available. We have left the SFL but I continue to defend the league and remind those that love taking pot shots that the top clubs in the SFL would put many clubs in the AdFL to shame with how well run and organised they are. And the performance of Morphy Park and Brighton this year has justified that. But when a club does what seemingly has happened here, particularly at A grade level, then you have to wonder what on earth is going on at some of the SFL clubs.

The formal SFL response states the player was unintentionally left on the B grade Team Sheet on 5 August and has now been removed hence the player is ineligible to play finals. GARBAGE.

SFL Board - stop pandering to clubs sensitivities and call a spade a spade. This bloke is a bona fide A grade player when available for Porties and his other 2 B grade games that he is still listed as playing are clearly also dodgy. South had BYE's those days but if he was cleared by South to play for Porties he would have been playing A grade just like the only A grade game he did play v Reynella when he was BOG and kicked 3 goals.

Interested in people's thoughts so who is at fault,
Porties who claimed to have ask if OK to play but clearly did the wrong thing on 5/08, SFL for not picking it up prior to game or MVale for asking the question?

The only thing Porties were asking about prior to Sundays game was the fact that the lad played in an Under 18 Preliminary Final on Friday night and South were beaten and eliminated. The "same weekend" rule does not apply in finals provided the player is qualified to play finals for his SFL club.

The rule states that you are clear to play for your SFL club in finals once your SANFL season is complete. As of 8.30pm Friday night, the lads SANFL season was completed. The SportsTG system was showing that he played 4 games for Porties so the SFL gave them the confirmation that the lad could play on Sunday because his SANFL season had finished. That approval had nothing to do with the issues that came to light thereafter.

They will definitely have a big home ground advantage at the unique school ground. It seems a couple of decent players playing well below their standard can be the difference in the lower divs. They have plenty of former juniors and seniors at other SFL clubs who may be tempted to return with the change of comp so it will be interesting to see what sort of squad they can assemble. The appointment of a new Senior Coach will be crucial for any new or returning players they can attract.

That's a normal Saturday night in footy season at the Shoe isn't it. It's called male bonding in 5168.

Anyone know the details of the fight at regency park reserve yesterday?
Hearing that the flinders park umpire had a crack at a para hills player.
I'm not going to say too much until it's all sorted out. Once the powers that be sort through it I will be more than happy to shed light on the subject.
Flinders Park were batting when game was abandoned, so you're saying a Para Hills player had a crack at the Flinders Park umpire.
Until all the reports are in and decisions made I'm not going to say anything. Trust me, I'd love to have my say as a witness to it all but it's not going to help the current situation. Once it's all sorted I'm more than happy to document exactly what went on.

I'm hearing PH have claimed a run out when the ball was clearly dead. Several (not all) PH players refused to continue playing if batsman didn't depart (which he didn't) so they took their bat and ball and went home. Bloody disgraceful if that version of events is close to the mark. Too many blokes running around the LO grades that play for sheep stations and if things don't go their way they carry on like sooks.

Edwin Moses unbeaten over 400 m hurdles for almost 10 years, broke the WR three times, two gold medals and one bronze at the Olympics would've been three but wasn't at Moscow

Universally accepted as "clean" but given the testing regimes of the 70s and 80s doubts would remain but unlike Lewis there are no pictures of him with braces....

But 400 hurdles is a fallback event for those who aren't quite fast enough at the flat 400. It's a bit like saying Chris Gayle based on T20 prowess should be put on the same pedestal as Smith and Kohli. If you are putting Athletics into the Greatest frame then Michael Johnson is right up there. Smashed the 200 and 400 WR's by as much as Bolt smashed the 100 and 200 (which was Johnsons). 4 Olympic Gold and 8 WC Gold with a running style that defied convention.

The old adage of 3 or more trial matches is outdated and is a legacy of a time when pre-season would commence around Australia Day and trial matches were part of the pre-season fitness program. With the Adelaide 500 followed by the Adelaide Cup long weekend (that moved to March about 10 years) most trials on those weekends seem to get the same response "a waste of time". We have settled for 2 trials in recent years which we are doing again this year with trials on 18 & 25 March.

33 outs!!!

Settle down scottroo. The clearance list can be misleading without taking a closer look. I counted at least 10 which were either SANFL or SFL clearance/permit. All players who are in SANFL club squads from U18 and above now need a clearance to the SANFL club and then they get a Permit back to their local club if they are still likely to play games for their local club. Plus the SANFL U16 lads still get put on permits to play in the SANFL U16 comp which also show up on the clearance page. And the SFL ones would have been permits for those lads that played in the game v GSFL down at Strath a couple of weeks back. Having said that, 20 plus outs is still considerable. Come on DTH, this is SAFooty.net - don't put facts in the way of rumour and innuendo.

Morphett Vale have clearly had a tough off-season but some people are seemingly taking some joy out of it and I just wanted to put the whole clearance and transfer page into perspective. For the same reason as stated above, the "transfer out" list is even longer for Flagstaff Hill, Happy Valley and Reynella. Still some negatives about whether all clubs will be able to sustain the full set of 5 Saturday teams but you can only go with what teams have committed to at this point in time so things are looking positive. The only concern will be 2 or 3 clubs dominating the junior grades in the immediate future and what impact this will have on player retention at the other clubs.

Social media in particular SA Footy is part of the problem. The Div 6 and Div 7 forums are already up to 40 pages for 2018 and the season is still 10 days away. When I played Ammos it was exactly that - amateur. Although back in the late 80's some of the Div 1 and Div 2 clubs were clearly buying brown paper bags for more than the mixed lollies in the canteen. In those days, other than the scores in the Sunday Mail with best and goals for the A grades only, the only other vehicle for ones name getting a mention was a small write up in the Footy Times each week. But the passion showed by the likes of Bedge, Morell etc. on SA Footy and the constant reference to some of the better players running around in these divisions only serves to inflate the ego and perceived value of blokes who would struggle to get a regular A grade game at many clubs or at least command no more than the base rate for an A grade game. I don't know what the solution is because the clubs in the weakest country leagues are probably paying players similar to the stronger country leagues which equates much the same to paying players whether you are Div 1 or Div 7. But it's rather sad how clubs are forced to survive these days when they were originally established to provide a recreational outlet with organised competition for their local communities, with absolutely no intention of one day having to pay people to participate.

But was the majority of players being those who were recruited to the club and being paid good money - probably more than what many would have been paid elsewhere. I'm all for clubs, particularly country clubs, maintaining their identity and existence but when a club's local population and demographic means the clear majority of their players have no association with the local area, past and present, then what is being achieved by that. There are numerous country clubs with hybrid names (due to mergers) on Yorke Peninsula, Eyre Peninsula and the Mid North that have been that way for over 20 years, not to mention several in metropolitan Adelaide such as Goodwood Saints, Brighton Bombers, Portland, Payneham Norwood Union etc. What has changed in the last 20 years that has seen little or no mergers. Country Football Victoria did a massive review not long ago with recommendations that have been implemented that has seen clubs merge, leagues consolidated, clubs switch leagues etc. I think its time for Community Footy SA to do something similar and possibly save some clubs and leagues from themselves.

CF - regardless of what may have happened in another game that was mentioned in either the Div 6 or this thread, if a player gets red carded it is an automatic report and dealt with by the AdFL Executive as a pre-tribunal prescribed penalty or sent straight to the tribunal on a Wednesday night. The umpires have a Match Day app on their phones and Yellow Cards and Red Cards are usually submitted within minutes of the game finishing.

Your concern over what happened to this player and whether MP were taking their own action was presumably stalled due to the player being unable to attend the tribunal last week. In those circumstances the player can't play (which he didn't last Saturday) until he attends the tribunal. He has now attended and copped his whack. Interesting whether the 6 games includes the one he missed whilst waiting to attend the tribunal but either way he has received his punishment and MP shouldn't have to take any further action unless they feel the need to.

Only one flag really counts and that is the Division 1 one, all the rest are just consolation prizes along the way to get to that point. Winning a flag after relegation is not a reward, unless mediocrity is your goal.

And this coming from a club that celebrated a B grade flag two years ago like it had won a World Cup. An A grade premiership is an A grade premiership and most clubs covet them as much as the next one or the last one.

And Bedge - they won their last A grade flag in 1994 with the highest paid team in the SFL and then 5 or 6 gun players walked due to a variety of reasons which may or may not have included outstanding player payments. LGIL will try and sugar coat it but the CBFC took about 20 years to recover from what happened at the end of 1994. I won't knock the SFL because the top 4 or 5 teams each year during our time in the SFL would not have been out of place in the top AdFL divisions. Despite too many easy games for the top clubs during the season, all finals wins and premierships were well earned.

Hasn't played I don't think, big pick up for Kenilworth and a big drop in grade for Harman.

Is it really a big drop in standard?

When was the last time a player from sfl came
And dominated div 5 or higher adelaide footy league?

We had a guy last year ended up playing twos and won the Anzac medal in the sfl this year.

I dare say half of the sfl teams would be no more then solid div 5 teams


Hey Scottroo, there were around 20 players who came from the SFL last year who were fairly dominant in Division 3 not to mention a similar number who did a pretty decent job in Division 4. As LGIL said, the true strength of an A grade team is more often players 15 to 21 not players 1 to 6.

And with Harman I think it was more a reference to his own grade or standard. The bloke played State Country just 2 or 3 years ago.

And LGIL - Onkaparinga Council has current form for being far more disrespectful than the few minutes it would have taken for the choppers to do their thing.

If ever Vics01 is on the missing persons list - just mention female football on SA Footy. Always flushes him out

Presumably not because why would they accept the Henley captains request to conduct a count then award a free kick plus a 50m penalty. Mountain out of a molehill this one. The correct penalty has already been applied and TTG and all clubs for that matter should just get a reminder about making 100% sure when a player should or shouldn't be coming on the ground in the event of blood, stretcher, assisted by trainers etc.

We had some bench staff get in a huff last year about an opposition player leaving the ground injured (assisted by trainers) in the forward pocket only for him to come back on the ground later in the match. Our guys assumed his day was done due to not exiting the ground through the gate. Turns out for the sake of getting the game moving the umpires allowed him to get off the ground at the nearest point and allow a player to come on the ground to replace him. What is wrong with that type of common sense approach rather than the player having to come off through the gate and the umpires having to decide "do we or don't we re-start play until he is off the ground through the gate". In some cases the gate is the nearest exit point but not always.

The "lose your whole score rule" is the most ridiculous rule in the laws of football and many leagues have modified it such as the AdFL. The SANFL Juniors also has a common sense approach in that a team only has its score taken back to what it was at the start of the qtr in which the breach occurred. So only the score they have accumulated in that qtr gets wiped.

Come on Dutchy, your SFL bias is starting to rank with LGIL. Clubs must do what is best for their playing membership and their demographic along with the expectations of the league or leagues they are in. Brighton left the SFL for those reasons and so have others. Whilst others have affiliations across more than one league seniors and juniors. If the leagues and the SACFL allow it then so be it. OSBL has the largest space for multiple small ovals, they are still affiliated with the SFL in the age groups represented in the carnival so why shouldn’t they be entitled to host a carnival still.

Does SA Footy have the funds to hire a translator for Marbles posts. I consider myself fairly intelligent but I just don’t get that guy!!!

Keep it going peeps. This has been great reading for the last 48 hours. The lower Divs of the AdFL - the gift that keeps on giving!!!

Next weeks brought forward D6 GF is showing as Adelaide Oval. Maybe the former Premier has pulled some strings!!! Either some wrong buttons have been pushed or the system just does some random selections until human intervention steps in.

Can’t wait for the royalties to start flooding in.

Ben Porter was allowed to go to the ground early and had a chat to the group well before the game started but then went home. O'Dea was the match coach. Ben was taken back to St Mary's by his wife near the end of the game and I believe was there when the final siren went and for the post-match presentations.

Correct - 65 to 70 is well short for having 3 teams with the modern football generation. 3 teams requires at least 63 on the park every week but injury (stubbed toe), illness (a sniffle), holidays (Bali during Uni semester break), exams, girlfriends winery tour birthday, going to Melbourne for a footy weekend, aunties 50th, grandmas funeral (yes they bury and cremate on a Saturday these days) and work are just a few reasons why at least 20 out of 85 lads of this generation will miss a game of footy. Sad but true. I will stop short of saying "in my day" but as a club administrator it does my head in.