Preliminary Final

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Re: Preliminary Final

Postby Footy Chick » Tue Sep 18, 2018 12:59 pm

Hondo wrote:
FlyingHigh wrote:I don't get why everyone is saying the captain calling for the count is an antiquated rule. There are more eyes on the game and easier to get a message out these days to him. A field umpire isn't going to listen to a runner pestering him.


Because if there are 19 or more on field and that can be proven or is obvious then there are 19 or more on field which should be the end of the story. Why do you need the rigmarole of stopping the game (and in fact it only being a specific player who can request the stoppage) and counting to prove what is already obvious?

Forcing a count gives time for the team in the wrong to get it right before the count can be done, as happened on the weekend.

It was a rule written when the game was completely different to what it is now. The game was slower and in those days the captain probably could have counted the players himself if the ball was stuck down the other end. Nowadays the players are constantly on the move thinking about the play. This makes it harder for the teams themselves to immediately realise there are extra players on field.

Also technology allows this to be dealt with in lots of ways that weren't available back then. Most of the crowd carry a camera.

It should never be an "out" for a team that something didn't happen when it did just because an on field count wasn't done.

I suspect the AFL will look closely at their wordings on this as well.


FFS, the captain doesn't have to be the one to make the realisation of the 19th player, he just needs to be the one to alert the ump to it :roll: It's not hard, once the sidelines have figured it out, for the runner to alert the captain and then for the captain to call for it.

Goes with the rule that the captain being the only one to be able to query the umps, not the runner, not the other players and most definitely not the crowd. IMO, it's not for the media to make the call either.

FWIW, I dont' think there are actually any community comps left that actually still have the loss of points rule as an immediate consequence of too many on field. I think you'll find that most are jsut a free kick and any appeal for loss of points would go to the governing body for a decision.
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Re: Preliminary Final

Postby Bombers4EVA » Tue Sep 18, 2018 1:01 pm

Footy Chick wrote:
Hondo wrote:
FlyingHigh wrote:I don't get why everyone is saying the captain calling for the count is an antiquated rule. There are more eyes on the game and easier to get a message out these days to him. A field umpire isn't going to listen to a runner pestering him.


Because if there are 19 or more on field and that can be proven or is obvious then there are 19 or more on field which should be the end of the story. Why do you need the rigmarole of stopping the game (and in fact it only being a specific player who can request the stoppage) and counting to prove what is already obvious?

Forcing a count gives time for the team in the wrong to get it right before the count can be done, as happened on the weekend.

It was a rule written when the game was completely different to what it is now. The game was slower and in those days the captain probably could have counted the players himself if the ball was stuck down the other end. Nowadays the players are constantly on the move thinking about the play. This makes it harder for the teams themselves to immediately realise there are extra players on field.

Also technology allows this to be dealt with in lots of ways that weren't available back then. Most of the crowd carry a camera.

It should never be an "out" for a team that something didn't happen when it did just because an on field count wasn't done.

I suspect the AFL will look closely at their wordings on this as well.


FFS, the captain doesn't have to be the one to make the realisation of the 19th player, he just needs to be the one to alert the ump to it :roll: It's not hard, once the sidelines have figured it out, for the runner to alert the captain and then for the captain to call for it.

Goes with the rule that the captain being the only one to be able to query the umps, not the runner, not the other players and most definitely not the crowd. IMO, it's not for the media to make the call either.

FWIW, I dont' think there are actually any community comps left that actually still have the loss of points rule as an immediate consequence of too many on field. I think you'll find that most are jsut a free kick and any appeal for loss of points would go to the governing body for a decision.

About time someone else agrees with my point also.
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Re: Preliminary Final

Postby mots02 » Tue Sep 18, 2018 1:05 pm

Hondo wrote:
FlyingHigh wrote:I don't get why everyone is saying the captain calling for the count is an antiquated rule. There are more eyes on the game and easier to get a message out these days to him. A field umpire isn't going to listen to a runner pestering him.


Because if there are 19 or more on field and that can be proven or is obvious then there are 19 or more on field which should be the end of the story. Why do you need the rigmarole of stopping the game (and in fact it only being a specific player who can request the stoppage) and counting to prove what is already obvious?

Forcing a count gives time for the team in the wrong to get it right before the count can be done, as happened on the weekend.

It was a rule written when the game was completely different to what it is now. The game was slower and in those days the captain probably could have counted the players himself if the ball was stuck down the other end. Nowadays the players are constantly on the move thinking about the play. This makes it harder for the teams themselves to immediately realise there are extra players on field.

Also technology allows this to be dealt with in lots of ways that weren't available back then. Most of the crowd carry a camera.

It should never be an "out" for a team that something didn't happen when it did just because an on field count wasn't done.

I suspect the AFL will look closely at their wordings on this as well.


Refreshing to see a North supporter acknowledge that they actually did something wrong... even if by accident.

Lots of blame on umpires, league officials and the Eagles.

None of this would have happened if North had better communication with or monitoring of Tropiano when he was down in the rooms for treatment
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Re: Preliminary Final

Postby JK » Tue Sep 18, 2018 1:07 pm

I think Tropiano should serve a one week suspension :D
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Re: Preliminary Final

Postby Corona Man » Tue Sep 18, 2018 1:07 pm

As a North supporter the whole thing is bloody embarrassing. Terrible way to go through to a GF. IF North win, the Premiership will always be tarnished.
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Re: Preliminary Final

Postby JK » Tue Sep 18, 2018 1:14 pm

Corona Man wrote:As a North supporter the whole thing is bloody embarrassing. Terrible way to go through to a GF. IF North win, the Premiership will always be tarnished.


History books won’t have an * next it. Can’t see any North supporter being at all concerned by it if they win the flag.
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Re: Preliminary Final

Postby Lightning McQueen » Tue Sep 18, 2018 1:19 pm

mots02 wrote:
Hondo wrote:
FlyingHigh wrote:I don't get why everyone is saying the captain calling for the count is an antiquated rule. There are more eyes on the game and easier to get a message out these days to him. A field umpire isn't going to listen to a runner pestering him.


Because if there are 19 or more on field and that can be proven or is obvious then there are 19 or more on field which should be the end of the story. Why do you need the rigmarole of stopping the game (and in fact it only being a specific player who can request the stoppage) and counting to prove what is already obvious?

Forcing a count gives time for the team in the wrong to get it right before the count can be done, as happened on the weekend.

It was a rule written when the game was completely different to what it is now. The game was slower and in those days the captain probably could have counted the players himself if the ball was stuck down the other end. Nowadays the players are constantly on the move thinking about the play. This makes it harder for the teams themselves to immediately realise there are extra players on field.

Also technology allows this to be dealt with in lots of ways that weren't available back then. Most of the crowd carry a camera.

It should never be an "out" for a team that something didn't happen when it did just because an on field count wasn't done.

I suspect the AFL will look closely at their wordings on this as well.


Refreshing to see a North supporter acknowledge that they actually did something wrong... even if by accident.

Lots of blame on umpires, league officials and the Eagles.

None of this would have happened if North had better communication with or monitoring of Tropiano when he was down in the rooms for treatment


Yep, was the most sensible post on the thread.
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Re: Preliminary Final

Postby Lightning McQueen » Tue Sep 18, 2018 1:20 pm

Bombers4EVA wrote:About time someone else agrees with my point also.

Don't I count? :(
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Re: Preliminary Final

Postby Lightning McQueen » Tue Sep 18, 2018 1:28 pm

Footy Chick wrote:
FFS, the captain doesn't have to be the one to make the realisation of the 19th player, he just needs to be the one to alert the ump to it :roll: It's not hard, once the sidelines have figured it out, for the runner to alert the captain and then for the captain to call for it.

Goes with the rule that the captain being the only one to be able to query the umps, not the runner, not the other players and most definitely not the crowd. IMO, it's not for the media to make the call either.

FWIW, I dont' think there are actually any community comps left that actually still have the loss of points rule as an immediate consequence of too many on field. I think you'll find that most are jsut a free kick and any appeal for loss of points would go to the governing body for a decision.

The Riverland Football League still use it, Loxton North defeated Waikerie this season thanks to Waikerie's score of 12.10 being wiped, they ended up losing by 17 points.

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Re: Preliminary Final

Postby Bombers4EVA » Tue Sep 18, 2018 1:29 pm

Lightning McQueen wrote:
Bombers4EVA wrote:About time someone else agrees with my point also.

Don't I count? :(

Oops. Let me re-track that comment. About time someone other than Lightning agrees with my point. Sorry Mr McQueen. :D
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Re: Preliminary Final

Postby Lightning McQueen » Tue Sep 18, 2018 1:31 pm

Bombers4EVA wrote:
Lightning McQueen wrote:
Bombers4EVA wrote:About time someone else agrees with my point also.

Don't I count? :(

Oops. Let me re-track that comment. About time someone other than Lightning agrees with my point. Sorry Mr McQueen. :D

:partyman:
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Re: Preliminary Final

Postby Bombers4EVA » Tue Sep 18, 2018 1:37 pm

Lightning McQueen wrote:
Bombers4EVA wrote:
Lightning McQueen wrote:
Bombers4EVA wrote:About time someone else agrees with my point also.

Don't I count? :(

Oops. Let me re-track that comment. About time someone other than Lightning agrees with my point. Sorry Mr McQueen. :D

:partyman:

Luv that emoji. That was me with some of the lads 2 weeks ago. Ha ha.
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Re: Preliminary Final

Postby another grub » Tue Sep 18, 2018 1:45 pm

Anyone follow GD on facebook? :roll:
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Re: Preliminary Final

Postby gadj1976 » Tue Sep 18, 2018 1:50 pm

Hondo wrote:
FlyingHigh wrote:I don't get why everyone is saying the captain calling for the count is an antiquated rule. There are more eyes on the game and easier to get a message out these days to him. A field umpire isn't going to listen to a runner pestering him.


Because if there are 19 or more on field and that can be proven or is obvious then there are 19 or more on field which should be the end of the story. Why do you need the rigmarole of stopping the game (and in fact it only being a specific player who can request the stoppage) and counting to prove what is already obvious?



Obviously not that obvious because they didn't call for a count.
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Re: Preliminary Final

Postby Hondo » Tue Sep 18, 2018 1:59 pm

Footy Chick wrote:FFS, the captain doesn't have to be the one to make the realisation of the 19th player, he just needs to be the one to alert the ump to it :roll: It's not hard, once the sidelines have figured it out, for the runner to alert the captain and then for the captain to call for it.

Goes with the rule that the captain being the only one to be able to query the umps, not the runner, not the other players and most definitely not the crowd. IMO, it's not for the media to make the call either.

FWIW, I dont' think there are actually any community comps left that actually still have the loss of points rule as an immediate consequence of too many on field. I think you'll find that most are jsut a free kick and any appeal for loss of points would go to the governing body for a decision.


I understand what you are saying but I still maintain it's a rigmarole and a pointless rigmarole if it is obvious that there is a problem with the numbers on field. Letting it then be "up in the air" until an on field count seems outdated to me. It is what it is and I think next time this happens (if it ever does), simply alerting an official should be enough.

The question then is what do to about it and I don't have an answer to that question but I am sure there is a sensible answer to be found now that the rule will get a long overdue review and update.

Wiping the score seems too harsh unless there is a deliberate cheat and in that case I think you would need an investigation to prove it rather than have it as an instant win on the spot if it is late in the game. Options I have thought of could be to stop the game and restart the quarter with the scores reset to what they were at the start of the quarter. I am not sure really but I think it needs to be something that can be done in game so at the end of the game the result is the result, rather than what we had this week.
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Re: Preliminary Final

Postby whufc » Tue Sep 18, 2018 2:07 pm

Morally North shouldn’t be in the GF

Laws of the game North should be in the GF

This should prompt a change of the wording to stop this from happening again which would see North not playing in the GF.
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Re: Preliminary Final

Postby FlyingHigh » Tue Sep 18, 2018 2:08 pm

Agree, Hondo that we shouldn't have gone through what we went through this week.
There is no doubt the rules will be re-written, but I don't think the punishment is too harsh, I think it is fair.
Perhaps alerting an official be what the process changes too, but still think you will need a count, especially with players going down the rooms often these days.
From you're post on the previous page which I haven't quoted, I inferred you thought the result should have been changed?
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Re: Preliminary Final

Postby gadj1976 » Tue Sep 18, 2018 2:09 pm

Hondo wrote:
Footy Chick wrote:FFS, the captain doesn't have to be the one to make the realisation of the 19th player, he just needs to be the one to alert the ump to it :roll: It's not hard, once the sidelines have figured it out, for the runner to alert the captain and then for the captain to call for it.

Goes with the rule that the captain being the only one to be able to query the umps, not the runner, not the other players and most definitely not the crowd. IMO, it's not for the media to make the call either.

FWIW, I dont' think there are actually any community comps left that actually still have the loss of points rule as an immediate consequence of too many on field. I think you'll find that most are jsut a free kick and any appeal for loss of points would go to the governing body for a decision.


I understand what you are saying but I still maintain it's a rigmarole and a pointless rigmarole if it is obvious that there is a problem with the numbers on field. Letting it then be "up in the air" until an on field count seems outdated to me. It is what it is and I think next time this happens (if it ever does), simply alerting an official should be enough.

The question then is what do to about it and I don't have an answer to that question but I am sure there is a sensible answer to be found now that the rule will get a long overdue review and update.

Wiping the score seems too harsh unless there is a deliberate cheat and in that case I think you would need an investigation to prove it rather than have it as an instant win on the spot if it is late in the game. Options I have thought of could be to stop the game and restart the quarter with the scores reset to what they were at the start of the quarter. I am not sure really but I think it needs to be something that can be done in game so at the end of the game the result is the result, rather than what we had this week.


Inviting another court room drama like we've just gone through? Let's keep it as is (wiping the score) so the deterent is there, rather than just escaping with a fine or covering up an intentional inclusion on the field.
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Re: Preliminary Final

Postby Lightning McQueen » Tue Sep 18, 2018 2:10 pm

another grub wrote:Anyone follow GD on facebook? :roll:

Yeah, he's been a bloody wreck since Sunday.
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Re: Preliminary Final

Postby Bombers4EVA » Tue Sep 18, 2018 2:15 pm

gadj1976 wrote:
Hondo wrote:
Footy Chick wrote:FFS, the captain doesn't have to be the one to make the realisation of the 19th player, he just needs to be the one to alert the ump to it :roll: It's not hard, once the sidelines have figured it out, for the runner to alert the captain and then for the captain to call for it.

Goes with the rule that the captain being the only one to be able to query the umps, not the runner, not the other players and most definitely not the crowd. IMO, it's not for the media to make the call either.

FWIW, I dont' think there are actually any community comps left that actually still have the loss of points rule as an immediate consequence of too many on field. I think you'll find that most are jsut a free kick and any appeal for loss of points would go to the governing body for a decision.


I understand what you are saying but I still maintain it's a rigmarole and a pointless rigmarole if it is obvious that there is a problem with the numbers on field. Letting it then be "up in the air" until an on field count seems outdated to me. It is what it is and I think next time this happens (if it ever does), simply alerting an official should be enough.

The question then is what do to about it and I don't have an answer to that question but I am sure there is a sensible answer to be found now that the rule will get a long overdue review and update.

Wiping the score seems too harsh unless there is a deliberate cheat and in that case I think you would need an investigation to prove it rather than have it as an instant win on the spot if it is late in the game. Options I have thought of could be to stop the game and restart the quarter with the scores reset to what they were at the start of the quarter. I am not sure really but I think it needs to be something that can be done in game so at the end of the game the result is the result, rather than what we had this week.


Inviting another court room drama like we've just gone through? Let's keep it as is (wiping the score) so the deterent is there, rather than just escaping with a fine or covering up an intentional inclusion on the field.

Better be careful what you say without the 100% proof that what you say is the truth.
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