Club Payments Crackdown

[morell]

Clubs and leagues are not saying a word in that article Morrell. It is David Shipway doing the talking. Nowhere in the article does it say, what you are eluding to.

It's Shipway saying - This is what clubs are coming to us with.

So either David Shipway is a liar, or, there is a big bad conspiracy being perpetuated by an evil cohort of villainous bullies who are trying to ... actually I legit don't know what they're trying to do considering there are reps form the concerned leagues on that committee,.

Are you calling David Shipway a liar?

Reading your comments, over pages and pages and pages, tells me you are obviously against player payments.

I am against unsustainable player payments, not all player payments, as has been repeatedly posted.

You are, by the club logo on your name, involved with a very, very low division club so this won't effect you at all,

We're a very, very low division club partly* BECAUSE of exorbitant player payments and not being able to keep up. With this statement you are showing a clear lack of understanding of how football in this state operates as a kind of ecosystem. Football clubs and leagues don't operate in isolation. We're all trying to provide the same product and consume the same good from the same market.

* I said partly Jetters, shut up.

so why get your knickers in a twist. Your club clearly doesn't pay players and won't in future, so it has no effect on you at all.

Wrong. Don't make assumptions.

Your view is based around players getting no payment for their time, efforts and skill.

Wrong. Don't make assumptions.

Thankfully, that does not reflect the view that 95% percent of clubs have in this state. If you want to keep living in the 1953 thats fantastic, but you are one of the absolute minority living in a time warp. Next time though, try and use a better snippet and quotes to support your argument. This snippet you posted actually did completely opposite to supporting your stance.

Sure thing! I think you might need to re-read the article again. Its got balance and reports both sides, which is why I said it sums things up well.

Are you calling David Shipway a liar?

[Nearly Was]

Yeah, and as has been repeatedly said, the measures are a start, the first step. It's not yet perfect. But you cannot argue that because people will flaunt the rules and that they're difficult to catch, that there shouldn't be something done.

Financial fraud is difficult to prove, there are lots of things that people shouldn't be doing that the authorities of various types have trouble policing. Doesn't mean we should just let it happen though.

It will only take one or two clubs to get pinched and for the penalty to be severe enough for the measures to begin to take effect. From there tweaking the points system will make clubs think more than twice. But you're right, it wont be enough to stop everyone.

In my mind the biggest challenge the administrators have in this space is changing the mindset and culture, as this board proves, it is still accepted in the footy world to out-pay your opponents and buy flags. It's deemed as "success".

What we need to do is change the culture so that over paying players beyond the salary cap is considered blatant cheating and is abhorrent. That way, you won't need to catch anyone and it will be a self-policing type process.

But its not financial fraud!
If I own a business and want to pay a bloke $40k a year to work for me thats my choice, whether he actually rocks up or not is no ones business as long as taxes are declared.
No rules are been broken

Hey Jim can I apply for that job?

[Jim05]

Yeah, and as has been repeatedly said, the measures are a start, the first step. It's not yet perfect. But you cannot argue that because people will flaunt the rules and that they're difficult to catch, that there shouldn't be something done.

Financial fraud is difficult to prove, there are lots of things that people shouldn't be doing that the authorities of various types have trouble policing. Doesn't mean we should just let it happen though.

It will only take one or two clubs to get pinched and for the penalty to be severe enough for the measures to begin to take effect. From there tweaking the points system will make clubs think more than twice. But you're right, it wont be enough to stop everyone.

In my mind the biggest challenge the administrators have in this space is changing the mindset and culture, as this board proves, it is still accepted in the footy world to out-pay your opponents and buy flags. It's deemed as "success".

What we need to do is change the culture so that over paying players beyond the salary cap is considered blatant cheating and is abhorrent. That way, you won't need to catch anyone and it will be a self-policing type process.

But its not financial fraud!
If I own a business and want to pay a bloke $40k a year to work for me thats my choice, whether he actually rocks up or not is no ones business as long as taxes are declared.
No rules are been broken

Hey Jim can I apply for that job?

Can you play football
Just a hypothetical, chose that figure because I knew a couple of SANFL players that were doing just that. Collecting $40k a year and never once had to rock up to work, their boss used to say that he would rather spend it on that than buy race horses

[CouchExpert]

David Shipway is stretching a long bow to say that a country community spent $40,000 on a player instead of the local hospital.What a load of crap!!
Raising funds for your local hospital has absolutely nothing to do with how the local footy club raise their money.It's statements like this that add fuel to the fire of the conspiracy theorists.In 2 years time when a heap of country clubs fold due to the salary cap he will tell us that the damage had already been down before the cap was implemented .I have met David Shipway & he is a genuinely nice guy but understand where his allegiance lies before you read too much into his comments

[morell]

So we have an experienced and knowledgeable administrator of football who has said publicly that football clubs have presented to the commission that they are struggling with player payments and that it's a huge issue for them and the sport generally. Then we have a bunch of overtly biased sa footy posters claiming that's a load of palaver, he's a liar, he exaggerates, he's got a secret agenda and that really everything is fine and this guy just wants to prop up the SANFL reserves.

I am a huge fan of the Occam's Razor philosophy - when there are two competing hypotheses that both seem plausible, the one with the fewest assumptions is invariably the correct one.

And I do like a conspiracy all things being equal.

[Dogwatcher]

It does impact on his club. Clubs in lower grades lose players to other clubs willing to pay - above, equal and below them in the club hierachy.
In fact, part of the paying players problem is that clubs in low grades feel the need to pay players to keep up with the rest.
It is ridiculous that people are getting paid to play in Div 7.

[morell]

Correct Dogwatcher!

Overblown player payments affects everyone involved in football. From the "top" to the bottom.

In fact I would go as far as saying that the increase in player payments - not just in amount either, but in the depth to where players are getting paid, D5 clubs with $100k budgets?!?? D7 players on $650/game!?!? - and our inability to compete at that level is perhaps the biggest problem facing Mitchell Park's sustainability moving forward.

[human_torpedo]

Its pretty concerning if a club will FOLD if they cant pay players more than $54k a year plus travel plus incentives for best players, plus a Marquee player.. Surely they can still attract enough players to fill a side, as well as locals.. Sure the QUALITY will be down, but I find it hard to fathom that a club will fold if its an even playing field, yet they can compete when its a free for all.. Is it genuinely that clubs will fold that are kicking up a stink or is it powerhouse clubs kicking up a stink that they cant rule the roost over the smaller clubs? That's a genuine question not a statement on my part, FWIW I think the Salary Cap is a good idea if implemented correctly, but it will take time, it wont be a quick fix like they are hoping..

[Jim05]

So we have an experienced and knowledgeable administrator of football who has said publicly that football clubs have presented to the commission that they are struggling with player payments and that it's a huge issue for them and the sport generally. Then we have a bunch of overtly biased sa footy posters claiming that's a load of palaver, he's a liar, he exaggerates, he's got a secret agenda and that really everything is fine and this guy just wants to prop up the SANFL reserves.

I am a huge fan of the Occam's Razor philosophy - when there are two competing hypotheses that both seem plausible, the one with the fewest assumptions is invariably the correct one.

And I do like a conspiracy all things being equal.

There was a good article in the local paper this week, all 9 Presidents of the BL&G clubs are against it. Most admit something needs to be done but the $3k/week is just nonsense. I think if it upped to $5k the clubs would be more willing to accept it. The clubs in the league are ran very well and previous experiences with caps was a debacle. A couple of Presidents suggested that clubs will find a way around it

[Dogwatcher]

Yet, a year earlier, the BL&G was looking at a salary cap, Jim.

I'll try and post that article, you refer to

[Dogwatcher]

http://www.bunyippress.com.au/presidents-speak-out/

http://www.bunyippress.com.au/league-unhappy-with-cap/

[morell]

There was a good article in the local paper this week, all 9 Presidents of the BL&G clubs are against it.

Is there an online link? Would like a read.

Most admit something needs to be done but the $3k/week is just nonsense. I think if it upped to $5k the clubs would be more willing to accept it.

Sooo this whole time, the biggest issue isn't the cap itself, but an extra couple of grand a game?

I am genuinely not sure about what the correct limit would be. To me that's minutiae and can be adjusted over time anyway.

The clubs in the league are ran very well and previous experiences with caps was a debacle. A couple of Presidents suggested that clubs will find a way around it

Again, clubs getting around the rules isn't an argument for not having the rule in the first place. How can people not understand that!?

[morell]

Thanks Dogwatcher.

After reading all the quotes from the presidents - it's pretty clear some of them don't understand the permutations around how their football clubs budgets are affecting other leagues and clubs, its not all about you - but I suppose that's not their job. That and it seems like a couple of them don't quite get that the cap is applied to everyone, including their competitors, not just them.

Aside from that I'd say most of them are for it, but are bemoaning the lack of consultation and the specifics about the amount - not being privy to the process perhaps this is a fair criticism.

[morell]

This was my favourite quote though:

Realistically, I’m all for a salary cap, but with $3000 a week you can’t attract decent players to your club, or any club.

And therein lies the problem, Mr Smith.

[cracka]

Bloody frightening when morells making so much sense. By the look of those articles it's the amount that is the issue, not the concept.

[Jetters]

Correct Dogwatcher!

Overblown player payments affects everyone involved in football. From the "top" to the bottom.

In fact I would go as far as saying that the increase in player payments - not just in amount either, but in the depth to where players are getting paid, D5 clubs with $100k budgets?!?? D7 players on $650/game!?!? - and our inability to compete at that level is perhaps the biggest problem facing Mitchell Park's sustainability moving forward.

I find this the most staggering thing, that sh!t footballers playing, in sh!tty low divisions are being paid so much. Then they just hop around these divisions and people are willing to pay them more and more. They are genuine B graders or at best fringe A graders footballers at a reasonable level.

If an ex SANFL player has dedicated 5-6 days a week to football in some way; playing, training, running, lifting weights, since they were young teenagers they are genuinely skilled and no issues them receiving reasonable $$, considering all the effort they have put in to reach their skill level and it brings people to the club to watch them. Clubs like CLG, Glenunga and even Houghton (and plenty of other clubs) playing in bloody Div 7 pay staggering amounts to average players to deliver rubbish football.

Goodwood has won div 1 premierships on less tha the salary cap.

This change is also going to make budgeting and planning way easier for football clubs. I've flipped on this issue a bit, but I think it's been demonstrated that football clubs are so irresponsible and poorly administrated to be left to their own devices. The solution that has been proposed seems extremely reasonable.

[Q.]

Clubs like CLG, Glenunga and even Houghton (and plenty of other clubs) playing in bloody Div 7 pay staggering amounts to average players to deliver rubbish football.

Staggering amounts? Think again.

All our A-graders get 'paid'.. most get bar vouchers, a couple get $50-$75 a game.

And yes, we introduced a player budget to originally prevent players from being poached by other clubs, as DW has pointed out.

[Nichdanmatt]

of all people jetters,you & your club should shut your mouths about clubs paying out money,i know what it has cost unley to go from div 4 to div 2,possibly div 1,3-4 highly paid players each year,plus your good group of young players.SO SHUT THE HELL UP.

[morell]

Ohhh an Unley vs CLG bitchfight. Look out...

I sense some hair pulling and accusations of driving "not a real four wheel drive".

[Look Good In Leather]

The greatest moral challenge of our time