Evolution V Religion

[JK]

Lol btw, Im sure we all know these conversations never end without someones nose out of joint

If anyone does then, IMO, they must be questioning thier own belief because for mine nobody will change my thinking nor will they question it well enough for me to even consider it.

Then whats the purpose of discussion?

I hear what you're saying and I think most feel the same, but this is a topic where someone inevitably gets the sads up.

[nuggety goodness]

so someone, maybe Psuedo cos he seems to be very intelligent, explain to me how we have evolved into the intelligent creatures that we are?

i've seen the pictures and they can be slightly believable as to how our body has evolved but our mind? also the complexity of our organs and how our bodies work so harmoniously...

[Hondo]

*** warning : contraversial post ***

My simplistic theory is that when the bible was written they didn't have the "benefit" of science to explain events and so resorted to other explanations like creation.

This doesn't mean that god does not exist necessarially or that the bible is fiction. My theory is that if it had been written today it could (would) have incorporated modern knowledge. It doesn't remove god's influence on creation necessarially - it just might have changed how he was involved.

My problem with the creation theory is the impact on children in christian families who end up at school in heated arguments after their science and history lessons or leaves them isolated out of mainstream in christian schools so the parents can be sure that there's no other "influences" on their kid's education.

Example: there is a friend of Mrs Hondo's mother whose 10 year old got into an argument with yours truly about the origin of the dinosaurs He loves dinosaurs and is really into it however anytime he reads up on the subject he is confronted by time scales millions of years outside those used in creation. He had worked out his own spin on it being that the dinosaurs existed 10,000 years ago and that the ageing of the fossils is all a load of bollocks (scientists are evil). However, I could sense some doubt in his mind and then the conflict with what he had been told to be true. The thing I felt most guilty about afterwards was that I was actually arguing with a 10 year old about his beliefs, which was wrong of me.

[Bum Crack]

so someone, maybe Psuedo cos he seems to be very intelligent, explain to me how we have evolved into the intelligent creatures that we are?

i've seen the pictures and they can be slightly believable as to how our body has evolved but our mind? also the complexity of our organs and how our bodies work so harmoniously...

So you're saying I'm dumb then????? Damn, why does everyone think that?????

[nuggety goodness]

LOL, I know....

So what do you think of other religions nuggety?

well my belief is that there is only one way. i believe that Jesus is the only way to get to heaven, anything that says otherwise is wrong. ultimatley in Christianity there is nothing that we can do to make it to heaven, salvation is a free gift, all we need to do is accept it. it cannot be earnt and it is guaranteed through Jesus. other religions have different ideas.

this is gonna start something!!!

[A Mum]

Coffee anyone ??

[Hondo]

well my belief is that there is only one way. i believe that Jesus is the only way to get to heaven, anything that says otherwise is wrong. ultimatley in Christianity there is nothing that we can do to make it to heaven, salvation is a free gift, all we need to do is accept it. it cannot be earnt and it is guaranteed through Jesus. other religions have different ideas.

this is gonna start something!!!

I'll bite! My understanding of the Christian position is this:

- if I live a good and kind life but don't accept Jesus as my saviour I will go to hell
- if Bevan Spencer Von Einem is a Christian he will end up in heaven

This implies a ruthless and arguably cruel god IMO.

I have debated this with a Christian and I say god cannot possibly have those rules if he is as kind, loving and forgiving as Christians say he is.

[Pseudo]

so someone, maybe Psuedo cos he seems to be very intelligent, explain to me how we have evolved into the intelligent creatures that we are?

No, but I am going to update my signature

[tipper]

Personally i hae always found religeon quite interesting. but i am not a believer.

the most interesting part for my mind is how so many people can be so adamant that theirs is the true faith, and the only way for salvation in the afterlife. i guess i have always had more of a "scientific" mindset. i look for the reasons things happen and i find it hard to "blindly" believe in something that cant be proven. i am always curious as to how the people that believe, came to their conclusions, probably as it is just so foreign to me.

I am also not totally against the idea of some sort of divine power, i am just not quite sold on the idea yet! the part that turns me completey away from organised religion is all the bullshit that goes with it. the attending church regularly (i do occasionally as my wife is a believer and i go to support her) the collections every week (its my hard earned dammit ) all the singing\dancing\praying bs.

also listening particularly to some of the messages in the songs can be quite scary. "no matter what happens some infinite being will make it all ok." "dont try to help yourself, god will do it for you". i am paraphrasing of course. sometimes though they seem to encourage handing your life over to "something" else and everything will float along fine. to me this is a dangerous idea. if people dont do things for themselves, they just wont happen!!

Hopefully i havent come across as getting stuck into the believers, cos that is definately not my intent, it is just my 2 cents on the whole thing (and i am probably overcharging as usual). i think for now i am definately in the evolution camp, but maybe one day that "event" that nuggety mentioned will happen and i will jump ship till then i guess i will be a heathen destined for hell

[nuggety goodness]

so someone, maybe Psuedo cos he seems to be very intelligent, explain to me how we have evolved into the intelligent creatures that we are?

No, but I am going to update my signature

i am flattered, however seems is the operative word...

[Pseudo]

I have debated this with a Christian and I say god cannot possibly have those rules if he is as kind, loving and forgiving as Christians say he is.

The old "Problem of Evil" argument against the existence of God...

1. God, if he exists, is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent
2. If God is omniscient then he knows of all evil.
3. If God is omnipotent then he is able to affect all evil.
4. If God is omnibenevolent then he wishes to banish all evil.
5. There is evil
Therefore,
6. There is no God.

...at least, not one who is omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent.

If I was of the religious mindset (which I'm not) and wanted to pick holes in the argument, I'd question the omnipotency of our saviour. i.e. He knows of the evil and would like to see it banished, but is powerless to act. But most typical Jeezmoids wouldn't be comfortable with this assumption.

[Booney]

LOL, I know....

So what do you think of other religions nuggety?

well my belief is that there is only one way. i believe that Jesus is the only way to get to heaven, anything that says otherwise is wrong. ultimatley in Christianity there is nothing that we can do to make it to heaven, salvation is a free gift, all we need to do is accept it. it cannot be earnt and it is guaranteed through Jesus. other religions have different ideas.

this is gonna start something!!!

That doesn't seem right. How can you be so sure? The height of hypocricy IMO.

[JK]

LOL, I know....

So what do you think of other religions nuggety?

well my belief is that there is only one way. i believe that Jesus is the only way to get to heaven, anything that says otherwise is wrong. ultimatley in Christianity there is nothing that we can do to make it to heaven, salvation is a free gift, all we need to do is accept it. it cannot be earnt and it is guaranteed through Jesus. other religions have different ideas.

this is gonna start something!!!

That doesn't seem right. How can you be so sure? The height of hypocricy IMO.

I think he was just expressing his belief as requested?

[nuggety goodness]

well my belief is that there is only one way. i believe that Jesus is the only way to get to heaven, anything that says otherwise is wrong. ultimatley in Christianity there is nothing that we can do to make it to heaven, salvation is a free gift, all we need to do is accept it. it cannot be earnt and it is guaranteed through Jesus. other religions have different ideas.

this is gonna start something!!!

I'll bite! My understanding of the Christian position is this:

- if I live a good and kind life but don't accept Jesus as my saviour I will go to hell
- if Bevan Spencer Von Einem is a Christian he will end up in heaven

This implies a ruthless and arguably cruel god IMO.

I have debated this with a Christian and I say god cannot possibly have those rules if he is as kind, loving and forgiving as Christians say he is.

from a humanistic perspective this is always going to sound wrong and an injustice. however from my perspective;

who's definition of 'good and kind life' are you using? a good life to God is similar yes to the worlds view of a good life but there are some rules. just like we have road rules and laws and authority here on Earth, God has His own standards that we must meet in order to live a 'good life' to Him.

Salvation is for all people, the bible says 'Therefore if anyone is in Christ he is a new creation; old things have passed away, behold, all things have become new' 2 Corinthians 5:17

we are forgiven by God of all the sin we have committed, we are new creations in Him when we accept the gift of salvation. the forgiveness comes by the shedding of blood, hence Jesus dieing on the cross

[Gingernuts]

Well, against better judgement I'm going to post my views on this subject!

Gees, some subject matter to get through though!

My personal view is that evolution & my personal beliefs (Christian) co-exist, they don't oppose each other at all. I don't subscribe to the fact that God created the world in 7 days literally, I just think that he described it that way so we could get our puny little human minds around the concept of our existence being whipped up from scratch.

As far as other suggestions of a lack of a god I would say this - REB & Booney you suggest that there is too much pain and suffering in the world for their to be a god, because that stuff would not happen.

I feel the opposite, I see the world and I see too many things that are amazing, compex, and intricate - and I just cannot believe that it all came together because of some freak explosion. I also can't believe that my only purpose for being here is to breed and die, life for me isn't worth living if their isn't a higher purpose to it. As far as I'm concerned God created the world and he put me on it to make it a better place. And if I do a reasonable job at it, then when I finally shuffle off this mortal earth he'll be waiting at an open bar in the clouds somewhere with all the people I have loved and lost, ready to share an icey cold schooey and a chat.

But that's just me. I was born and raised in a Christian household and so have never known anything different. My beliefs don't make me a better person than anyone else here, and I don't think God wants me to ram them down anyone's throats either. If someone is fair dinkum about wanting to know more I'm happy to chat, otherwise people are welcome to believe in what they like.

[nuggety goodness]

1. God, if he exists, is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent
2. If God is omniscient then he knows of all evil. true
3. If God is omnipotent then he is able to affect all evil. true
4. If God is omnibenevolent then he wishes to banish all evil. true
5. There is evil true
Therefore,
6. There is no God. false

...at least, not one who is omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent.

If I was of the religious mindset (which I'm not) and wanted to pick holes in the argument, I'd question the omnipotency of our saviour. i.e. He knows of the evil and would like to see it banished, but is powerless to act. But most typical Jeezmoids wouldn't be comfortable with this assumption.

just because He hasn't acted yet doesn't mean He doesn't exist, all evil will be banished, we, as humans, were not meant for hell, Satan was, however our decision to reject God is a decision to embrace the opposite.

[Gozu]

Religion is the root of all evil.

[nuggety goodness]

Well, against better judgement I'm going to post my views on this subject!

Gees, some subject matter to get through though!

My personal view is that evolution & my personal beliefs (Christian) co-exist, they don't oppose each other at all. I don't subscribe to the fact that God created the world in 7 days literally, I just think that he described it that way so we could get our puny little human minds around the concept of our existence being whipped up from scratch.

As far as other suggestions of a lack of a god I would say this - REB & Booney you suggest that there is too much pain and suffering in the world for their to be a god, because that stuff would not happen.

I feel the opposite, I see the world and I see too many things that are amazing, compex, and intricate - and I just cannot believe that it all came together because of some freak explosion. I also can't believe that my only purpose for being here is to breed and die, life for me isn't worth living if their isn't a higher purpose to it. As far as I'm concerned God created the world and he put me on it to make it a better place. And if I do a reasonable job at it, then when I finally shuffle off this mortal earth he'll be waiting at an open bar in the clouds somewhere with all the people I have loved and lost, ready to share an icey cold schooey and a chat.

But that's just me. I was born and raised in a Christian household and so have never known anything different. My beliefs don't make me a better person than anyone else here, and I don't think God wants me to ram them down anyone's throats either. If someone is fair dinkum about wanting to know more I'm happy to chat, otherwise people are welcome to believe in what they like.

this is good to hear, IMO it takes just as much, if not more, faith to believe in the creation of the universe and complexity of it without the existence of God...

secondly i'm not ramming my beliefs down anyone's throat, i am sorry if it feels that way to anyone...

i just like to be a little controversial...

[Gingernuts]

secondly i'm not ramming my beliefs down anyone's throat, i am sorry if it feels that way to anyone...
i just like to be a little controversial...

That wasn't a reference to you sorry nugget, I reckon you're doing a good job of answering peoples questions! Good on ya for punching on, but I don't think your going to turn around too many of these blokes.

[JK]

secondly i'm not ramming my beliefs down anyone's throat, i am sorry if it feels that way to anyone...
i just like to be a little controversial...

That wasn't a reference to you sorry nugget, I reckon you're doing a good job of answering peoples questions! Good on ya for punching on, but I don't think your going to turn around too many of these blokes.

I think the Bible frowns upon a bloke turning around other blokes mate