Evolution V Religion

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Re: Evolution V Religion

Postby nuggety goodness » Thu Nov 26, 2009 10:17 pm

Pseudo wrote:
school text books have the big bang theory in them which is based on assumptions and estimations, not scientific evidence,

Complete and utter BULLDUST. The big bang has been supported by several observations. One is the measurable background radiation of the universe. Turn on an analogue television set and tune it to a free channel; a significant amount of what you see on the screen is due to the set picking up this background radiation. Current models of the universe's creation predict the existence of such radiation. A second observation is obtained from radio telescopes trained upon distant galaxies. The light from these galaxies is heavily shifted towards the low-frequency end of the spectrum. This is a manifestation of the well-known Doppler shift, demonstrating that distant galaxies are receding at a very high velocity. This implies that at one time the various galaxies must have been close together: at the Big Bang.

That's the scientific method at work: form a theory, find evidence which supports that theory - or falsifies it. Contrast this with the philosophical method, which argues forwards from assumptions to extend knowledge. Contrast both methods with the religious model of thought: See something which you don't understand, and postulate the workings of an imaginary deity to account for it. This God is a "God of the gaps", a deity whose name is invoked in order to cover up ignorance.

How difficult would it be for the religious fundies to maintain the belief that God created the universe, and the laws which govern it, then stood back to watch its beauty evolve?


they have tried the same experiment before (exploding two atoms) and discovered that it did nothing.

regarding your last point, along the same line of thinking, how difficult would it be for God to have created the universe and all that is in it and watch us create havoc and destroy the place, that's all that has happened...

your thought gives our life no meaning or purpose, effectively we are related (distantly) to single celled organisms of which, in all honesty, have extremely low if any value in our eyes. whereas the Christian belief gives us a meaningful existence and a hope...
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Re: Evolution V Religion

Postby Dogwatcher » Thu Nov 26, 2009 10:21 pm

Nuggety - how long until you're behind the pulpit?
You have a very good handle on your beliefs.
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Re: Evolution V Religion

Postby Pseudo » Thu Nov 26, 2009 11:31 pm

nuggety goodness wrote:they have tried the same experiment before (exploding two atoms) and discovered that it did nothing.

You read this in a refereed academic journal? Or the New Christian Weekly?

You want to know what a couple of exploding atoms does? Look out the window (in daytime) and see a massive ball of superhot hydrogen plasma doing its thang. Or pull out a history book and find some photos of Hiroshima circa 1945. Does that look like nothing to you?

Incidentally the relationship of this to cosmology is negligible; I am certain that most accepted versions of the Big Bang theory do not begin with a couple of atoms butting heads.

regarding your last point, along the same line of thinking, how difficult would it be for God to have created the universe and all that is in it and watch us create havoc and destroy the place, that's all that has happened...

WTF?!? The best thing your God could do, after He created the universe, is to disappear. To leave us alone to our own devices.

your thought gives our life no meaning or purpose, effectively we are related (distantly) to single celled organisms of which, in all honesty, have extremely low if any value in our eyes. whereas the Christian belief gives us a meaningful existence and a hope...


Ah, so belief in a deity is not necessary because that deity actually exists, but rather because it gives meaning to our existences. Truth does not matter; feeling warm and fuzzy is paramount.

Frankly I do not see why the Xian view necessarily means that we are not related to that single celled organism, nor why being related to it should rob one's life of any meaning. Nor do I see why it is necessary to ascribe meaning to life in the first place.

If Xian beliefs indeed give meaning to an individual, well go for it and good luck I say. I am not being flippant. In all seriousness, if belief in a Xian God helps you to deal with the existential angst of having consciousness and free will, that's great; More power to you.

Why this personal choice should then entail one to rewrite biology textbooks, replacing centuries of empirical advancement with a fairy story, is something I cannot fathom. Is this some bizarre points-scoring exercise, in which one validates one's Christianity by trumpeting something which is essentially false? The more times one can mention His name while defending the indefensible earns one a softer pillow in heaven? Heck, whatever happened to just loving thy neighbour and going to confession once in a while?
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Re: Evolution V Religion

Postby Pseudo » Thu Nov 26, 2009 11:33 pm

Dogwatcher wrote:Nuggety - how long until you're behind the pulpit?
You have a very good handle on your beliefs.

He would be well suited to the pulpit.

Just so long as he never also serves on a school curriculum board.
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Re: Evolution V Religion

Postby Gozu » Fri Nov 27, 2009 12:31 am

This is why I never buy Gloria Jeans coffee:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercy_ministries

Absolutely disgraceful.
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Re: Evolution V Religion

Postby nuggety goodness » Fri Nov 27, 2009 6:58 am

Pseudo wrote:
Dogwatcher wrote:Nuggety - how long until you're behind the pulpit?
You have a very good handle on your beliefs.

He would be well suited to the pulpit.

Just so long as he never also serves on a school curriculum board.


time will tell that one, i definately have a handle on what i believe but i have a lot to learn...

the pulpit isn't for personal opinions but for the God's Word to be presented wholly and unbiased, plus there is much more pressure on a Pastor/Preacher than an attendee, i'll hold off for a little while!
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Re: Evolution V Religion

Postby nuggety goodness » Fri Nov 27, 2009 7:38 am

http://www.sliceofscifi.com/2008/08/26/ ... -for-real/

http://www.informationweek.com/news/har ... =210600849

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 104549.htm

http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/universe/bb_tests_ele.html

of all the tests that are done i haven't found any results anywhere, they aren't published or i'm not looking hard enough. my feel is that if the results were without 'reasonable doubt' then they would be published and highly recommended, however the lack of results tells me that 'the tests were done wrong'

due to the amount of knowledge we have available to us these days everything has to be logical or explained scientifically, we try to eliminate anything we don't understand or can't comprehend, thus eliminating God. however from day dot people have been spiritual, ancient tribes all understand the spiritual nature of our planet. isolated, untouched tribes in Sth America/Africa etc still practice traditional ceremonies even without hearing about or from the bible, they understand there is a God and they try to appease Him... the issue is the spiritual isn't as cut and dry as we like it to be so it must be explained.

we as humans have every resource at our fingertips yet we cannot recreate life, we cannot take something that is dead and bring it back let alone create a living organism from scratch.
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Re: Evolution V Religion

Postby Zelezny Chucks » Fri Nov 27, 2009 7:42 am

nuggety goodness wrote:
Zelezny Chucks wrote:
nuggety goodness wrote:
Zelezny Chucks wrote:Man was created in god's image. Does that mean God is Encino Man??

Science has proven we have descendants who were vastly different physically so how does Christianity explain that?


Encino Man? no idea...

and Science hasn't proven that at all... is this the we come from Monkeys thing?


No, it's the Australopithicus, Homo Erectus etc etc thing.

I guess my question is how can you blindly believe something that has so many contradictions and misinterpretation throughout its teachings?

If you truly believe in God, as you say then what you do in life doesn't matter, as if you truthfully and honestly repent all your sins on your deathbed you will be accepted into heaven as if you had lived your life as a priest*

*used for irony.


firstly, the Australopethicus has similar or closely related genetics, they are not necessarily our descendants, we have very similar DNA to pigs too.....

secondly, very few people get a deathbed, no-one is guaranteed tomorrow ZC... my grandmother died of a heart attack new years eve 06, no deathbed. one of my mates from High School had a car accident, died instantly. my wife's grandfather is currently in ICU, he had 2 major heart attacks 2 Saturday's ago and has not come to consciousness since. he is still alive, but being supported by machines and looks to have extensive brain damage due to the lack of oxygen being circulated...

thirdly, identify the misinterpretations and contradictions in the bible. that is a regularly used arguement that has no substance to it...


No one is guaranteed a deathbed you are correct but if that is the case then a lot of good christians shall not make it into heaven as I would think that at one stage or another we have all sinned regardless of how piuous you are. Remember, Jealousy is a sin. If you aren't able to repent your sins in front of god your screwed.

As for the contradictions I will list a couple that have been outlined to me.

For or against?
MAT 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
(not with is against)

MAR 9:40 For he that is not against us is on our part.
(not with is for)

LUK 9:50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.
(not with is for)

Which is right?

In the same way you are arguing that who are we to say you are wrong about the existence of god without proof, you are also wrong in denying the results of science in the same way. Science has a lot more tangible evidence to believe than Religion does.
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Re: Evolution V Religion

Postby shoe boy » Fri Nov 27, 2009 8:34 am

I see the Catholic church at it again!!!!

Headline news on BBC with the church coming out in Ireland that has for years covering up its priests and cardinals that have been reeming young boys! all in the name of religion.

These same priests that preach the bible to so many!!!!! :evil:
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Re: Evolution V Religion

Postby Wedgie » Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:00 am

Priests have certainly been found guilty of abusing children more than 2 atoms colliding!
I know which side decent folks would place their faith in!
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Re: Evolution V Religion

Postby Dirko » Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:26 am

Gozu wrote:This is why I never buy Gloria Jeans coffee:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercy_ministries

Absolutely disgraceful.


and their coffee is shit too.....
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Re: Evolution V Religion

Postby Pseudo » Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:30 am

nuggety goodness wrote:we try to eliminate anything we don't understand or can't comprehend, thus eliminating God.

Au contraire, we invoke His name to explain many things which we cannot comprehend. Ignorance breeds religion, rather than stifling it.

we as humans have every resource at our fingertips yet we cannot recreate life, we cannot take something that is dead and bring it back let alone create a living organism from scratch.


Been done many times. There are many cases in which the clinically dead have been restored to life. Some of them even claim to have seen Baby Jeebus while they were gone - how about that!

I have not the time to go through your links at present; will do so when I get the chance.
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Re: Evolution V Religion

Postby Pseudo » Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:37 am

Zelezny Chucks wrote:In the same way you are arguing that who are we to say you are wrong about the existence of god without proof, you are also wrong in denying the results of science in the same way. Science has a lot more tangible evidence to believe than Religion does.

And when it has come to a head between church-dictated dogma and empirical science, the church does not have a good track record.

Example: Galileo Galilei vs the Bible

Elements of the above story are frighteningly similar to the Creation vs Evolution debate.
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Re: Evolution V Religion

Postby gossipgirl » Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:50 am

Score Update

Evolution 2 Religion 0 and its half time :D
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Re: Evolution V Religion

Postby gossipgirl » Fri Nov 27, 2009 10:18 am

my 2 cents worth

Religion is one of the leading causes of War whereas I dont think the Idea of Evolution has caused any wars ?

Religion is a concept created by man whether its a good or bad concept is open for discussion, although a lot of evidence indicates many bad things are done in the name of religion.

Evolution does exist ie there is enough evidence to show that life does evolve over time but whether this totally explains how different species are formed I guess is still debatable.

Also I believe you can have a belief in God but dont necessarily have to believe in a religion.

This is all way too serious and deep for a friday
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Re: Evolution V Religion

Postby Pseudo » Fri Nov 27, 2009 12:41 pm

gossipgirl wrote:I dont think the Idea of Evolution has caused any wars ?

None at all. However the Evolution of Ideas has caused plenty! ;)
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Re: Evolution V Religion

Postby gossipgirl » Fri Nov 27, 2009 1:55 pm

Pseudo wrote:
gossipgirl wrote:I dont think the Idea of Evolution has caused any wars ?

None at all. However the Evolution of Ideas has caused plenty! ;)


touche
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Re: Evolution V Religion

Postby mick » Fri Nov 27, 2009 2:14 pm

I can't believe people are still believing in fairy tales (religion) in 2009? At best religion is harmless superstition at worst it is a virulent contagion hell bent (no pun intended) on controlling and exploiting people. Darwin is arguably the most influential Briton of all time ( Newton would be a rival), perhaps one of the most influential thinkers of all time. His ideas have much to do with the decline of the influence of religion in Western civilisation.
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Re: Evolution V Religion

Postby once_were_warriors » Fri Nov 27, 2009 2:40 pm

gossipgirl wrote:my 2 cents worth

Religion is one of the leading causes of War whereas I dont think the Idea of Evolution has caused any wars ?

Religion is a concept created by man whether its a good or bad concept is open for discussion, although a lot of evidence indicates many bad things are done in the name of religion.

Evolution does exist ie there is enough evidence to show that life does evolve over time but whether this totally explains how different species are formed I guess is still debatable.

Also I believe you can have a belief in God but dont necessarily have to believe in a religion.

This is all way too serious and deep for a friday



Looking back on the past two centuries ( my history studies doesn't go back further) this statement is wrong

World War 1 - assasination and dispute over boundaries.
World War 2 - Linked to the outcomes of WW1, depression and a mad man
Korean War - Outcomes from WW2 , political idealogies
Vietnem War - Political Idealogies
Iraq/Afganastan - could be potentially linked with religion , but a very broad analysis. Pay back/Oil/Civil War

I think you would have to go back to the Crusades to show the influences of religion on War.

Maybe Israel Vs Palestine is the closest we can get.
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Re: Evolution V Religion

Postby Pseudo » Fri Nov 27, 2009 3:21 pm

once_were_warriors wrote:...
I think you would have to go back to the Crusades to show the influences of religion on War.

Maybe Israel Vs Palestine is the closest we can get.

Ulster catholics vs Ulster protestants. Though this also has a "nationalism" factor. As does the Israeli - Arab thing.
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