Conspiracy Theories v Cover Ups

[Psyber]

My impression of these attacks over the years suggests they are perpetrated either by borderline psychotic individuals acting on their delusional beliefs, or by otherwise detached from society and isolated individuals (perhaps with some degree of mild organic brain disorder and social factors adding to their alienation), or those suffering a combination of both.

Sure you could argue these were just the "patsies" for a conspirator group pulling their strings, but I'm not convinced.

[Hondo]

Bryant was given an air rifle as a gift by his father at age 14, 15 years before the massacre. It would seem reasonable to conclude that over the next 15 years he became skilled at using firearms. This contradicts at least one popular conspiracy theorist who claimed Bryant had no previous shooting experience prior to Port Arthur.

Maurice had given his son an air rifle for his 14th birthday. It was the worst decision he ever made because it introduced Martin to the power of firearms. It coincided with a marked change in behaviour. Martin took to hiding in a creek bed alongside the house and firing at passing traffic or wildly out into the bay at night. There is a chilling story of the day he shot a parrot out of a tree, then walked up to the dead bird and fired several more slugs into its head. He was also blamed for untying boats from moorings. It was around this time that his schoolmate, Greg, ended their friendship after Martin stuck the point of a spear gun into the top of his head.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/national/a-danger ... z2f6XnGPc6

[Psyber]

Bryant was given an air rifle as a gift by his father at age 14, 15 years before the massacre. It would seem reasonable to conclude that over the next 15 years he became skilled at using firearms. This contradicts at least one popular conspiracy theorist who claimed Bryant had no previous shooting experience prior to Port Arthur.

Maurice had given his son an air rifle for his 14th birthday. It was the worst decision he ever made because it introduced Martin to the power of firearms. It coincided with a marked change in behaviour. Martin took to hiding in a creek bed alongside the house and firing at passing traffic or wildly out into the bay at night. There is a chilling story of the day he shot a parrot out of a tree, then walked up to the dead bird and fired several more slugs into its head. He was also blamed for untying boats from moorings. It was around this time that his schoolmate, Greg, ended their friendship after Martin stuck the point of a spear gun into the top of his head.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/national/a-danger ... z2f6XnGPc6

All of that suggests Bryant had something fundamentally wrong with him right from the start.

By contrast, I got my first air gun aged 10, but it was an un-rifled barrel type and not very accurate over longer distances.
I only shot at targets, and occasionally at the pumpkins my mother grew in the garden.
(I never liked pumpkin.)

Some of my peer group shot at birds with their air guns, but I became adept at firing first and hitting the branch, which made the birds fly away.
Thus, I hid my soft-heartedness behind my early reputation as a poor shot...

[Hondo]

The other factor the article highlights is despite the low IQ and the obvious social difficulties he faced he was able to attend normal schools, live a relatively normal life of sorts, make large property transactions and travel frequently by himself. He was able to enter Port Arthur and interact with others without attracting too much attention apart from apparently mumbling to himself.

Punky's description of him as "drooling and window licking" come from the conspiracy theory articles which I have also read which want to amplify the mental retardation aspect to support their theory that he couldn't possibly have done what he did.

[HH3]

Conspiracy theorists latch on to small details, then blow them out of proportion to suit their own theories.

I was watching "Zeitgeist - The Movie" yesterday to see what all the fuss was about, and they try to say the world media is controlled by governments, and that major corporations use the media to skew the publics views of certain events.

But then the whole way through the movie, they use clips from news programs to support their own arguments.

Some of the theories are believable, but when you think about the hypocrisy, it makes them harder and harder to believe.

[therisingblues]

Conspiracy theorists latch on to small details, then blow them out of proportion to suit their own theories.

I was watching "Zeitgeist - The Movie" yesterday to see what all the fuss was about, and they try to say the world media is controlled by governments, and that major corporations use the media to skew the publics views of certain events.

But then the whole way through the movie, they use clips from news programs to support their own arguments.

Some of the theories are believable, but when you think about the hypocrisy, it makes them harder and harder to believe.

Well said.
On that point about "world media" I've heard recently that "respected doctors" (or scientist, or whatever the buzz is) warning people that today we are more unable to ascertain truth than ever before, don't believe what you hear! Question everything! Yadda yadda...
So I guess that the Egyptians of ancient times who believed pharoh was divine were more informed than we are now, or the population of China when Mao told them they were slaves to the middle class etc...
We have more information and leisure time than ever before in history, add imagination and you have conspiracy theories! And the fun never stops, loony A reads loony B's blog and writes his own version with extra additions. Along comes loony C and on it goes.

[Hondo]

The problem is the conspiracy theorists want you to question everything except what they are saying.

[test]

Boston bombings another recent one

[HH3]

Boston bombings another recent one

That one actually makes me think. Mainly because of the pics of the "CRAFT" dudes all over the place. They are a private "security" company founded by Chris Kyle. One of the best snipers in US history. He was killed by a fellow soldier he was helping at a firing range not long before the bombings. People think he objected to CRAFT being involved in the bombings, so they offed him.

This pretty much summarizes the whole theory.

http://www.heavy.com/news/2013/04/bosto ... alse-flag/

Its pretty compelling reading, even if its not true.

[Punk Rooster]

Boston bombings another recent one

That one actually makes me think. Mainly because of the pics of the "CRAFT" dudes all over the place. They are a private "security" company founded by Chris Kyle. One of the best snipers in US history. He was killed by a fellow soldier he was helping at a firing range not long before the bombings. People think he objected to CRAFT being involved in the bombings, so they offed him.

This pretty much summarizes the whole theory.

http://www.heavy.com/news/2013/04/bosto ... alse-flag/

Its pretty compelling reading, even if its not true.

And my point exactly.

[HH3]

Some new ones about the Washington Navy Yard shooting

http://www.heavy.com/news/2013/09/washi ... on-alexis/

Considering there's 10 conspiracies covered...it seems like everyones just making shit up. If one of them is true, 9 of them are wrong.

[Hondo]

Considering there's 10 conspiracies covered...it seems like everyones just making shit up. If one of them is true, 9 of them are wrong.

Exactly, it's becoming an industry if it isn't already. Every time something happens now out come multiple conspiracies. At some point credibility gets lost.

[blink]

Punky, re-read how the 35 victims died. Most of not all (I didn't want to analyse it too much ) were stationery and shot at close range. Most of his shots at longer range at moving targets missed.

True - most were shot by this coward while they were hiding or taking cover in fear.

[therisingblues]

President Kennedy- this seems to be a cover up of an organised assassination- by whom, who would know

Yet almost 50 years on nothing has emerged to substantiate the conspiracy theories. I used to be hot on this one but as each year passes and nothing comes out I lean back to the official party line. Lincoln, Robert Kennedy and Reagan were shot by lone gunmen with their own private agenda yet with JFK the majority feel this could not have been the case.

Surely by now something should have come out to counter to the official line. Where is the bombshell admission or revelation? I want to believe in the JFK conspiracy but I find it harder and harder the more time passes.

Yet the evidence is overwhelming that there was at least some conspiracy.
The fact that no one from within the conspiracy has come forward points to the intelligence behind it.
To put it another way, if you accept there was at least some conspiracy (impossible not to), you'd then need to go pretty high up the power ladder to find people with the means to have kept it tight for so long, in other words, it has to be a big, well organised conspiracy with boot loads of power behind it.

[Hondo]

Yet the evidence is overwhelming that there was at least some conspiracy.
The fact that no one from within the conspiracy has come forward points to the intelligence behind it.

Yes I used to think so. But now I wonder if the "overwhelming" part is simply the quantity of articles written about the conspiracy rather than any hard evidence of one.

I read something recently that debunked the "magic bullet" theory. Someone had written an article showing that it all wasn't as mysterious and unexplainable as we had been told. I think they recreated the shooting angles from the Schoolbook Depository building and proved that one gun-man from that building could in fact have done what Oswald was accused of and caused all the injuries that were inflicted with 2 or 3 shots. In a test situation, they were able to hit the moving target at the same distance using the same weapon from the same spot as Oswald.

I think the JFK conspiracy has been given so much publicity over such a long time that many just assume there was a conspiracy. Yet nothing concrete has ever come out to this day. Why not?

As an aside, is JFK the original conspiracy theory?

[Footy Chick]

because they won't release the official reports until 2048 or some stupid year like that! and even then I bet they extend that...

[Hondo]

From what I can read there was originally a 75 year lock-down on documents from the Warren Commission which would have meant they were sealed until 2039. However, that rule was over-turned in 1992 and from what I have read all of the original Warren Commission documents have now been released to the public.

I did some quick googling and there seems to be an "Assassination Records Review Board" set up in 1992 to get all of the JFK assassination documents released to the public. Without doing lots of reading I couldn't say how much is still yet to be released but I did read something about it all being released by 2017 and the majority is already publicly available.

That's why I say despite all the documents getting released why still to this day has there not been the stunning revelation? Maybe in 2017 it will come.

[Hondo]

To put it another way, if you accept there was at least some conspiracy (impossible not to), you'd then need to go pretty high up the power ladder to find people with the means to have kept it tight for so long, in other words, it has to be a big, well organised conspiracy with boot loads of power behind it.

Which is why after 50 years it becomes harder and harder to believe that there is a conspiracy because the horsepower and money required to keep everyone quiet until now and on an ongoing basis would be enormous. You'd need a secret "Minister to Maintain the Conspiracy" and a huge team keeping thousands of people under observation. Each new person brought into the team would add to the number in the know and exponentially the number of conspirators keeps growing over time. All this in the modern age of wiki-leaks, the internet, emails, instant news, etc, etc. There would be so many communication avenues to keep plugged that I think it would impossible.

It's the same argument made against why a Moon landing conspiracy would be impossible to keep secret for this long.

I heard somewhere that the FBI and CIA have been reverting back to paper files like the old days because electronic information was simply too hard to control.

So if you yourself accept that it being kept secret for so long requires extraordinary effort on the part of the conspirators and the fact that it would likely have to involve every President since 1963 then I think you have to at least start to question whether in fact there is a conspiracy.

[therisingblues]

The magic bullet was one price of evidence.
The huge number of witnesses that saw smoke emanating from the grassy knoll is another. (50 odd out of 150 witnesses IIRC)
The poor processes employed by the Warren Commission who were supposed to investigate the truth about the assassination (suppressing evidence, refusal to consult one witness who saw smoke coming from the grassy knoll, admitting evidence from non credible witnesses etc) which were later criticized by another official investigation.
The sound recording from the open mike: sound testing of reenactments later pointed to a 96 percent probability that shots were fired from the grassy knoll.
The change of make of the rifle discovered in the school depository allegedly used by Oswald. Records show he never purchased a gun that matched the bullets fired at Kennedy, policemen who discovered the gun signed affidavits that showed they found a gun the same as which Oswald purchased. The gun later changed identity in lieu of ballistics reports.
Ammunition discovered at the depository was also switched.
The time frame in which he fired off the supposed three shots was much too short.
The time Oswald left home (positive sighting and time) and the time officer Tippit was shot means it was impossible for Oswald to have killed him, this was the initial reason the police apprehended him.
Live film of the incident which was confiscated and never returned.
I've just scratched the surface there Hondo, but the most compelling are the sheer number of witnesses, the fact their testimonies were never heard, the sound evidence and indeed the magic bullet.
With so many questions from day one of course the story was going to be retold a thousand times with as many theories. I really believe we don't understand the truth of what happened there.
From what I understand about the man, the world would have been a far more peaceful place had he lived. I hope we learn what really happened one day.

EDIT: I imagine it's easier to keep a lid on the conspiracy these days. After 50 years most people involved would be dead. Over the years many people have come forward claiming inside knowledge of what happened with interesting facts to back themselves up. A 1979 official commission did find evidence enough to support another gunman, so there's at least an official recognition that a conspiracy exists.

[Hondo]

Theri, a couple of documentaries have been made that have used scientific style tests on the magic bullet theory:

The Discovery Channel's reenactment of bullet CE 399's path (apparently their single bullet came close to duplicating all wounds in both men with a single shot, with a bullet having little deformation)

ABC's The Kennedy Assassination: Beyond Conspiracy - a computer animator over 10 years completely rendered the events of the day in 3D computer animation. "Myers' animation found that the bullet wounds were consistent with JFK's and Governor Connally's positions at the time of shooting, and that by following the bullet's trajectory backwards could be found to have originated from a narrow cone including only a few windows of the sixth floor of the School Book Depository, one of which was the sniper's nest of boxes from which the rifle barrel had been seen protruding by witnesses"

You could google and have a look. The second one is on Youtube but I haven't viewed it yet.