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Re: Bali Nine - is the death penalty justice?

PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 1:46 pm
by Booney
fisho mcspaz wrote:I have never found any argument convincing me that humans have the right to take another person's life against their will, nor to legalise such murder and call it justice.


In some, many cases, in fact, the victims life was taken against their free will, perhaps even held against their will at length before being murdered.

Does this mean the guilty party should suffer the same fate? I'd say no, it doesn't, in most instances. Do I think there are instances where they should be put to death? Without question, yes, I do.

So in my own mind and many others as we can see on here, while we can't justify capital punishment, we can all see instances where it does seem to be the only course of justice being handed down.

Is it justice though? I'd rather see cruel, inhumane people treated as their victims were, but that then makes me/society no better than them. Like public stonings, is that really making things better, heaping pain and suffering on someone who inflicted pain and suffering? I can't see how it is anything by hypocritical.

I've just argued for and against my own argument.

I'm going for a lay down.

Re: Bali Nine - is the death penalty justice?

PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 2:02 pm
by whufc
Booney wrote:
fisho mcspaz wrote:I have never found any argument convincing me that humans have the right to take another person's life against their will, nor to legalise such murder and call it justice.


In some, many cases, in fact, the victims life was taken against their free will, perhaps even held against their will at length before being murdered.

Does this mean the guilty party should suffer the same fate? I'd say no, it doesn't, in most instances. Do I think there are instances where they should be put to death? Without question, yes, I do.

So in my own mind and many others as we can see on here, while we can't justify capital punishment, we can all see instances where it does seem to be the only course of justice being handed down.

Is it justice though? I'd rather see cruel, inhumane people treated as their victims were, but that then makes me/society no better than them. Like public stonings, is that really making things better, heaping pain and suffering on someone who inflicted pain and suffering? I can't see how it is anything by hypocritical.

I've just argued for and against my own argument.

I'm going for a lay down.


Agree with all of that, only thing I'll add

Is if people were treated the same as their victims were treated I reckon we would see it being a far greater deterrent than life in prison, or death penalty

Though this is purely speculation with no evidence to back it up

Re: Bali Nine - is the death penalty justice?

PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 2:15 pm
by Q.
toot toot wrote:IMO, the only reason they have become such angels is because it would help in trying to convince the Indonesian's not kill them (their lawyers probably advise them to do it as well, to help their case).

If they were jailed in Australia they would be out already and probably be back involved in the drug game.


Are you suggesting that our prison system is poorly designed for rehabilitation?

Re: Bali Nine - is the death penalty justice?

PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 2:45 pm
by toot toot
Q. wrote:
toot toot wrote:IMO, the only reason they have become such angels is because it would help in trying to convince the Indonesian's not kill them (their lawyers probably advise them to do it as well, to help their case).

If they were jailed in Australia they would be out already and probably be back involved in the drug game.


Are you suggesting that our prison system is poorly designed for rehabilitation?


Without having been involved with the system, looking from the outside the simple answer is yes.

For rehabilitation to be a success the system needs to provide adequate support but also the offenders have to be willing to change.

Re: Bali Nine - is the death penalty justice?

PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 7:39 am
by White Line Fever

Re: Bali Nine - is the death penalty justice?

PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 9:09 am
by Dogwatcher
Bloody sad.

Re: Bali Nine - is the death penalty justice?

PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 9:10 am
by Booney
They left the prison at 8:30am SA time.

Re: Bali Nine - is the death penalty justice?

PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 10:59 pm
by on the rails
The death penalty debate is a very emotive and polarising subject. What gets me annoyed with this latest matter is Heads of our Govt. and high profile media people calling for or threatening sanctions / actions against Indonesia including people starting FB pages re boycotting Bali but do we take any action or threaten the U.S. Govt.? 32 U.S States plus the U.S. Govt (including Military) have the death penalty as ultimate punishment. Are we starting a boycott of all things American and why isn't that idiot Abbott and Julie Bishop threatening Obama and co.

Hypocrisy lives long in AUS!

Re: Bali Nine - is the death penalty justice?

PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 11:07 pm
by Gozu
As Widodo is a big heavy-metal fan Black Sabbath's Tony Iommi has sent a letter to him asking him to spare the lives of Chan & Sukumaran:


"The President of lndonesia

"3rd March 2015

"Your Excellency,

I am writing to appeal to you to grant clemency to Andrew Chan and Myuran Sukumaran.

"I understand and respect your efforts to combat drug abuse in lndonesia, this is something that all countries are having to deal with.

"lndeed, I have seen first hand the negative impacts that drugs can have on people and their families. That is why I understand your strong views on this issue. The lndonesian prison system has had great success in transforming Andrew and Myuran.

"I appeal to you, as a forgiving man, to take note of their transformation. They are now reformed men who are making a positive difference to the lives of their fellow prisoners.

"That they have been transformed so much is a real credit to the lndonesian authorities. For this reason, I would ask that you stop the execution of Andrew and Myuran.

"Please allow them to serve out life sentences where they contribute to the wellbeing of lndonesia and make good for the error of their previous ways. I do hope you will consider this personal appeal.

"Yours sincerely,

"Tony Iommi
Guitarist, Black Sabbath."


http://www.blabbermouth.net/news/black- ... xecutions/

Re: Bali Nine - is the death penalty justice?

PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 12:02 am
by fisho mcspaz
Not my two cents - more my loose change. I've got a few bits and pieces to spill out. I get short shrift from some people on here for my long posts, but if they're too much you don't have to read them, you know. :roll: Sorry I'm such a grouch tonight, it's been a weird, sad old kind of day.

I don't know where to start with this but I'll give it a go. Firstly, this morning, when Andrew Chan and Myuran Sukumaran were taken away. I am trying to get my head around why Indonesia is so determined to carry through with these executions. I really thought that Australia’s intervention and the delayed procedures of the executions would win a stay of execution. One, because until recently, from my (admittedly limited) view, Joko Widodo appeared to be a down-to-earth, reformist, progressive person. Not necessarily someone who would put compassion ahead of law or duty, but not compassionless. When he announced that drug criminals would be executed, the general opinion in Indonesia was that it was a diversionary tactic, designed to draw attention away from the public disapproval of his close relationship with Megawati Sukarnoputri and the fact that he very nearly appointed a corrupt chief of police on her recommendation. I’m not sufficiently versed in Indonesian politics to comment on that side of things, but I did think that whatever else, Jokowi announced the executions because he genuinely believed that this was an answer to Indonesia’s drug problem. It seemed to be a strong personal conviction, at odds with other more liberal views he holds, but nevertheless genuine. But his behaviour in the last week, with the unnecessary show of military force around Kerobokan in particular, is more typical of a dictator’s personality. I wonder if he has got the potential to be a dictator. I wonder if a person could change their beliefs, scruples and politics in a short space of time. Or maybe his small-town background has something to do with it all – maybe small-town politics don’t translate very well to leadership of a whole country. He is certainly the first ‘people’s’ president of Indonesia, the first one who was not born privileged, groomed for a role in government. But even if he were the next Pol Pot he won’t last long enough to have enough of an influence – I think that Indonesia were ready for a ‘people’s’ president, but not him. And it is the executions of Chan and Sukumaran that will topple him. I think Indonesians were getting ready to forgive him for the police chief thing after he smoothed that over, but most of the educated population appear to see him as taking a ham-handed approach that has damaged Indonesia’s foreign relations – and they think he’s done it for tactical reasons rather than his own beliefs, which is probably the most damaging thing – the idea that their president is willing to play with people’s lives and their country’s reputation in that fashion.

(Please note that the above is largely speculation - I've never even been to Indonesia - I've only been reading up on their politics in the last couple of months in an effort to understand this man and whether the Aussies would stand a chance for a stay of execution under his government. I try and be objective when I read things but I'm certainly no expert.)

The editor of the Jakarta Post has made a great suggestion – it won’t happen, but oh, I wish it would. He has called for a referendum of the death penalty in Indonesia. He said that this way, executions would be halted, Indonesians would actually be able to see how many of them agree with capital punishment, instead of seeing different figures from one week to the next from various areas, and Jokowi would be able to back down on his promise to execute all drug criminals, without losing face.

Moving closer to home now, I'm going to repost something I wrote on FB this morning. I wrote it mainly in response to the fact that the first thing I saw when I opened up my newsfeed was this flog going 'Can we hurry up and execute them already, why do people care about two drug dealers so much?' He certainly wasn't the first person to express this view; I guess I was just tired and despairing after seeing that Chan and Sukumaran had been taken from Kerobokan, and look, call me names if you want because I probably deserve them for this, but I just consider the guy who wrote the post to be a total waste of space, he's unemployed and uneducated by choice, chooses to sit at home doing absolutely nothing because he thinks it's hilarious that the government gives him money to do so. Fills out a pretend job diary so he can stay on the dole. The only things he shows any interest in are trolling social media, taking selfies and chatting up teenagers. So I f***ing saw red when he wrote that, because you know, I'm judging him for judging them. Because the only reason he's even in a position to judge is because he's not a drug mule, he's just a canker sore mooching off the welfare system, and there's a law against one but not the other. But his post garnered a sh1tload of support - more than any of his awkward selfies ever get, that's for damn sure :-Q - and just the sheer number of comments agreeing with him, and adding pearls of wisdom like 'there [sic] not even aussie' or 'f*** all dealerz think of all the ppl died from their heroin ill shoot the c**ts myself' made me think bloody hell, how many more idiots are there like this, and how do you educate them? Is it worth even trying?

Anyway, here's my take. I was out of patience.

'They should of [sic] thought about the consequences' - if I've read that once I've read it 142685862497 times. Along with 'do the crime, do the time', 'we have to respect foreign laws' and 'how many 1000s died from the drugs they brought into Australia?' (I can answer that last one: none.)

I'm tired of marshalling diplomacy and rational argument to use against these statements, which are nothing more than an abrogation of moral responsibilities - a washing of hands, if you will, and in many cases (not all; some people do genuinely believe in capital punishment as a deterrent, or that these men are little better than murderers and deserve death for their actions), a convenient reason to be glad that Andrew Chan and Myuran Sukumaran will be shot dead. Because you need to have a reason, otherwise it just looks bad. Voyeurism = not de rigueur.

So, in the absence of diplomacy and rational argument, the only thing I have left to say is: shut up, you smug, self-righteous, myopic SH1THEADS. Just shut the f*** up.


Lastly, my thoughts on Tony Abbott and his role in this. While he’s a knob – I still cringe every time he speaks to the media, because he has no tact (this morning he was saying ‘It will not be in Indonesia’s best interests to carry out the executions’) – at least he's a humanitarian knob. I thought he would follow in Howard’s footsteps and stay out of the whole affair (as Howard and Downer did in Van Nguyen's execution in 2005). I think it’s at the point where it no longer matters what he says, because it’s not going to change the state of affairs, but I’m just glad our government’s doing something. I think Julie Bishop is doing everything possible. I couldn’t bear it if we just sat there complicitly and let it happen.

I’ve turned the news off – they keep giving ‘updates’ like it’s the f***ing Sydney to Hobart race or something. I don’t want these men to die. I don’t know what to do. I don’t want every last second of their lives to be a running tabloid show for Channel 7 or wherever.

Re: Bali Nine - is the death penalty justice?

PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 12:16 am
by fisho mcspaz
MatteeG wrote:Nice blurb Fisho- you make some good points.

My question is- would they rehabilitate themselves if they knew they were going to get out in say 5 years?

I feel part (if not all) of their want to rehabilitate and do good for others stems from the knowledge that their time here may be limited.


I wondered that too. I guess I still do. When I think about what it would be like knowing that your days are numbered, I think about extreme reactions: either completely reinventing yourself, having an epiphany, etc., doing your best to live out the rest of your days as selflessly and purely as possible in order to prepare yourself for the next life - I think the phrase 'getting right with God' probably sums it up as well as any - or going the other way, descending into beastdom, because what is the point of behaving decently when there's nothing to live for? That's what I imagine could be going through people's heads when faced with a finite number of days. Of course, I don't know if it's really like that, and even if it is for some people, I don't know if it would've been like that for people in Kerobokan, because I think there was a fair assumption that those on death row weren't going to be executed - no one could see executions resuming in the near future. I think Joko Widodo's announcement that all drug felons would be executed came as a real shock, within Indonesia as well as outside.

All my rambling speculation aside, if rehabilitation is only possible with a sword hanging over your head, then the Australian prison system will never work as a rehabilitation facility. And the Indonesian system won't work for much longer as one. This pending round of executions will see to that. :(

Re: Bali Nine - is the death penalty justice?

PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 4:43 am
by whufc
Is it only Australians who have got the death penalty in Indonesia

Or do we just believe we have should have a golden ticket over all the other prisoners on death row

These two will not be the last humans to face the firing squad in Indonesia

Re: Bali Nine - is the death penalty justice?

PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 7:28 am
by Q.
whufc wrote:Is it only Australians who have got the death penalty in Indonesia

Or do we just believe we have should have a golden ticket over all the other prisoners on death row

These two will not be the last humans to face the firing squad in Indonesia


As a country we should always look to protect our own from unjust circumstances that occur abroad.

Re: Bali Nine - is the death penalty justice?

PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 8:27 am
by MW
It is also unjust to traffic heroin

Re: Bali Nine - is the death penalty justice?

PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 9:04 am
by Stumps
no its not.
illegal yes, maybe immoral but not unjust

Re: Bali Nine - is the death penalty justice?

PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 9:15 am
by JK
Stumps wrote:no its not.
illegal yes, maybe immoral but not unjust


Maybe? :shock:

Re: Bali Nine - is the death penalty justice?

PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 9:16 am
by whufc
Q. wrote:
whufc wrote:Is it only Australians who have got the death penalty in Indonesia

Or do we just believe we have should have a golden ticket over all the other prisoners on death row

These two will not be the last humans to face the firing squad in Indonesia


As a country we should always look to protect our own from unjust circumstances that occur abroad.


Who is the decider of what is unjust

In the land of Indonesia this is a very just deciscion that almost anyone no matter what heritage, race etc would have been handed down.

No doubt our football clubs have different rules of behaviour expected, no doubt we have different punishments for people who break the rules.

I don't agree with capital punishment but unfortunately it is a law countries do have, easiest way to avoid it, don't do the crime, all about risk vs reward

Re: Bali Nine - is the death penalty justice?

PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 9:23 am
by heater31
whufc wrote:
I don't agree with capital punishment but unfortunately it is a law countries do have, easiest way to avoid it, don't do the crime, all about risk vs reward


But doesn't the Indonesian government try to do the exact same thing for their own citizens as we are with ours? Get a them off death row.....

Maybe we should all rethink our position for Indonesia as a holiday destination for Australians.

Bring back the beef export bans and what ever else we sell them.

Re: Bali Nine - is the death penalty justice?

PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 9:25 am
by Psyber
Based on my experience in my medical life including a short time working in the Psych unit that was once attached to Yatala Prison, I am a bit cynical about "rehabilitated". I suspect that if these guys were released their rehabilitation would have evaporated, and they would be back dealing or smuggling, within 3 months.

I'm not generally for the death penalty, but each country has to weigh that moral issue against the high cost of running humane and secure prisons.

Re: Bali Nine - is the death penalty justice?

PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 9:26 am
by Pseudo
heater31 wrote:Maybe we should all rethink our position for Indonesia as a holiday destination for Australians.

Ironically if all the bogans stayed out of Bali then the place might actually be worth visiting ...