SA v WA - WACA 10 Feb 2010

[smithy]

The only way I could find this out is to trawl through the scorecards - when was the last time the top 6 for the Redbacks all made at least 20 with four scores of 50 or more?

1995/1996

I'm still trying to get over this stat.

[mal]

Angle Park Greyhounds
Wednesday
R 5-1 Doc Harris

Ran 3rd

[Bulls forever]

Manou is a solid number 7 these days. His average will never reflect it though because his first 50 games he was so ordinary.

O'Brien is so far from a first class 5 it's not funny. I think he's either in for his bowling or not at all. We tried the half a side of all rounders thing with Mark Higgs and Jon Davison back a few years ago. We can manage with Christian at 6 if our number 8 is strong enough. If not, Christian at 7, Manou at 8 and Christian probably has to bowl a bit more.

In the race between 4,5 and 6 against 7,8 and 9 the winner was..... 7,8 and 9 173 to 30 Disgusting. No doubt changes will come. And the selectors will be able to say there aren't too many putting their hand up, coupled with the WC losses of Cooper and Ferguson but a state side just can't manage without more depth than that. But let's stop for a second and think about the batting without Klinger, Blizzard, Christian and O'Brien. Manou would be just about the best home grown bat available right now.

FIX GRADE CRICKET!!!!!! FFS, tear the whole comp apart and start again with 6 or 8 sides. Forget merging etc, just start clubs anew. I realise we'll lose players and people, but in time we'll be better off. The good ones who want to help cricket in the state will stay, while we'll have a more competetive competition that should become more lucritive.

Please change the record, this is wearing very thin, I won't go through the whole thing again about the cricket exposure that our contracted players get, suffice to say that Grade Cricket makes up less than 20% of the cricket that they play. Do your research, investigate your facts. This is brought up in every second thread. It will not happen, as for Grade Cricket becoming more lucrative, give me a break.

Seems you totally misunderstood what I wrote. The point was that players aren't developing in the grade system because it's too easy to succeed. So the 20% nonsense you talk about is meaningless. Most guys who go on to play state cricket would play several years of grade cricket. In that time they should be learning their game as much as any. A tough grade comp should hold them in reasonable stead for state cricket, just like a tough state cricket comp should hold a guy in good stead for test duties (and it did in many cases over the last 20 years, Hussey, Clark, North just to name a few came on and performed right away).

If you want to convince me that grade cricket in SA produces good state cricketers, how about listing me the best XI to have made their first class debuts in the last 20 years having been brought through the SA grade system? I'm sure if it's a strong enough competition then in 20 years it should have produced us a pretty strong group of cricketers.

GL, the reason for my post, is that we have been over this a lot of times in other posts, I have resurrected the following.

SACA contract 20 odd players, who start training in June / July, solely with SACA. The first the Grade Clubs see of those players is the Thursday selection before the first Grade game, sure they might pop in and say hello, but they certainly don't train prior to that. These contracted players go to two pre season comps, one in Darwin and one in Qld somewhere. They start internal trials in September when Damien and his workers can get the centre wickets up. The Grade Clubs have no input and no access to any of this. When the cricket season commences, the contracted players continue to train full time in SACA, they make appearances at Grade Clubs, but seldom do much at training, which is understandable. They are continually playing against the other top 20 odd players in the state, either in the nets or internal trials. Then if not selected for Redbacks, they will play in the futures league (which should revert back to 2nd 11 anyway) against the best players in Australia. The exposure of the players to the best available practice conditions, competing against our best players is continuous. Now are you all trying to tell me that because our Grade Comp is so "shite", that is the reason SACA cricket is so bad. Also taking into account that regularly the Redbacks bowlers don't play Grade because they are sore and SACA wish them to rest.

Now, let me tell you my theory. SACA get the best juniors from U12 level, the best then continue in underage development squads up until they finish in U19's. They too start training in July most years and receive extensive training in SACA, by the best SACA have to offer. We compete fairly well in underage cricket against the other States, only to fail to compete when we get to the big boys. Naturally our smaller State will dictate that we won't produce what the bigger States do, but why can't we develop our best kids, who SACA have for 6 or 7 years, into shield cricketers.

The bottom line being that without grade cricket, you would still have your high performance, training 5 days a week on the best facilities in the country. I am not saying that grade cricket produces good cricketers, but Klinger aside, they do not dominate grade cricket as some people think they should. Grade Cricket is still tough and the only reason it is perhaps not as good as the past is that the older players give the game away a lot earlier. We now run a 24/7 society, unlike the 5 day week that it used to be, hence more commitments etc for the players.

I am just sick and tired of this same old argument being raised, it seems in every second thread.

[brod]

The only way I could find this out is to trawl through the scorecards - when was the last time the top 6 for the Redbacks all made at least 20 with four scores of 50 or more?

1995/1996

I'm still trying to get over this stat.

It wasnt..Spelly wrote that it happened last season

[OnSong]

Hell Bulls, I hope it feels better getting all that out!! Lol

[smithy]

Naturally our smaller State will dictate that we won't produce what the bigger States do,.

Bulls - Please tell how Tasmania manage to be much more competitive than us despite having 1/3 of our population and will play off in the finals of the sheffield shield and Ryobi Cups.

but why can't we develop our best kids, who SACA have for 6 or 7 years, into shield cricketers..

No reason why it can't happen, it's just that it doesn't happen

[heater31]

Naturally our smaller State will dictate that we won't produce what the bigger States do,.

Bulls - Please tell how Tasmania manage to be much more competitive than us despite having 1/3 of our population and will play off in the finals of the sheffield shield and Ryobi Cups.

For Starters I bet the TCA take a far greater interest in their Grade Competition, and have the facilites up to a decent standard. One would think that if it rains on a Wednesday in Hobart they would still play on a Saturday unlike at some grounds here

[Grahaml]

SACA contract 20 odd players,

If you're sick of it being raised, perhaps you should understand what is being said. I'm not talking about the top 20 players in the state right now. I'm talking about the guys that in 5 year should be in the top 20. But what level do the best young kids outside the 20 contracted players play? Grade cricket. The improvement at grade level BEFORE they get to a state contract level is not as much as it should be.

By all means go and stick your head in the sand at whichever grade club you belong and instead of wondering why a guy the standard Cullen Bailey can bat 9 for SA and 4 for his grade side (and make bucketloads of runs there) just pat yourselves on the back about how well you're going. But if that happens, SA will just have to keep importing players who didn't stagnate during their years in grade cricket.

[Footy Smart]

SACA contract 20 odd players,

If you're sick of it being raised, perhaps you should understand what is being said. I'm not talking about the top 20 players in the state right now. I'm talking about the guys that in 5 year should be in the top 20. But what level do the best young kids outside the 20 contracted players play? Grade cricket. The improvement at grade level BEFORE they get to a state contract level is not as much as it should be.

By all means go and stick your head in the sand at whichever grade club you belong and instead of wondering why a guy the standard Cullen Bailey can bat 9 for SA and 4 for his grade side (and make bucketloads of runs there) just pat yourselves on the back about how well you're going. But if that happens, SA will just have to keep importing players who didn't stagnate during their years in grade cricket.

Doesnt Bailey have 1 or 2 first class hundreds? he's also hit a few grade ones, no slouch with the bat. Its not un common for this to occur and im not saying the standard of Grade Cricket is completely satisfactory either. This scenario doesnt mean CB is the 9th best batsmen in the state it means he is in the side for his bowling and 9th best bat in the team but when he goes back to Grade level he is top 5 standard..... SAme could be said for Daniel Harris and his bowling.

[Grahaml]

SACA contract 20 odd players,

If you're sick of it being raised, perhaps you should understand what is being said. I'm not talking about the top 20 players in the state right now. I'm talking about the guys that in 5 year should be in the top 20. But what level do the best young kids outside the 20 contracted players play? Grade cricket. The improvement at grade level BEFORE they get to a state contract level is not as much as it should be.

By all means go and stick your head in the sand at whichever grade club you belong and instead of wondering why a guy the standard Cullen Bailey can bat 9 for SA and 4 for his grade side (and make bucketloads of runs there) just pat yourselves on the back about how well you're going. But if that happens, SA will just have to keep importing players who didn't stagnate during their years in grade cricket.

Doesnt Bailey have 1 or 2 first class hundreds? he's also hit a few grade ones, no slouch with the bat. Its not un common for this to occur and im not saying the standard of Grade Cricket is completely satisfactory either. This scenario doesnt mean CB is the 9th best batsmen in the state it means he is in the side for his bowling and 9th best bat in the team but when he goes back to Grade level he is top 5 standard..... SAme could be said for Daniel Harris and his bowling.

No, he's certainly useful with the bat at state level. But he has a first class average of just under 19 (no hundreds). I get that he may well be good enough to bat 6 or something at district level, but he shouldn't be consistently the best bat in the side.

[Footy Smart]

SACA contract 20 odd players,

If you're sick of it being raised, perhaps you should understand what is being said. I'm not talking about the top 20 players in the state right now. I'm talking about the guys that in 5 year should be in the top 20. But what level do the best young kids outside the 20 contracted players play? Grade cricket. The improvement at grade level BEFORE they get to a state contract level is not as much as it should be.

By all means go and stick your head in the sand at whichever grade club you belong and instead of wondering why a guy the standard Cullen Bailey can bat 9 for SA and 4 for his grade side (and make bucketloads of runs there) just pat yourselves on the back about how well you're going. But if that happens, SA will just have to keep importing players who didn't stagnate during their years in grade cricket.

I could have sworn he hit a 100 as a night watchman for SA..... Who is the stats man on this thread i want and inquest.

If he was at sturt he would be the 4-5th best bat on runs this season but at Glenelg he is only behind Tom Plant. The commentators last night mentioned that the bloke who batted 8 for WA last night Adams bats high for his grade club and makes plenty of runs. Its a non issue for me and im sure there are cases like this all over Australia.


Doesnt Bailey have 1 or 2 first class hundreds? he's also hit a few grade ones, no slouch with the bat. Its not un common for this to occur and im not saying the standard of Grade Cricket is completely satisfactory either. This scenario doesnt mean CB is the 9th best batsmen in the state it means he is in the side for his bowling and 9th best bat in the team but when he goes back to Grade level he is top 5 standard..... SAme could be said for Daniel Harris and his bowling.

No, he's certainly useful with the bat at state level. But he has a first class average of just under 19 (no hundreds). I get that he may well be good enough to bat 6 or something at district level, but he shouldn't be consistently the best bat in the side.

[locky801]

Bulls, doing all that research of old threads I take it that you have retired from your day job,

[Bulls forever]

Naturally our smaller State will dictate that we won't produce what the bigger States do,.

Bulls - Please tell how Tasmania manage to be much more competitive than us despite having 1/3 of our population and will play off in the finals of the sheffield shield and Ryobi Cups.

but why can't we develop our best kids, who SACA have for 6 or 7 years, into shield cricketers..

No reason why it can't happen, it's just that it doesn't happen

Smithy, this is from memory, so please forget any errors.
Cosgrove - SA
Bert - NSW
Krejza - NSW (?)
Kruger - Qld
Cowan - NSW
and as my memory is old, but they generally put a team out with 5-6 imports that appear more willing to go to Tas AND they seem to develop their juniors better. Wells was not a great underage player, but has developed into a useful State cricketer. We do not do that. We seem to have U19 Aus players who don't develop into good first class cricketers, that is what my argument is all about, you can blame the grade clubs, BUT, BUT they have nothing to do with the development of the kids SACA do, so blame SACA by all means, but understand the entire system prior to bagging the grade clubs and my other point is, I am not sure people have the understanding of the system.

I use for example Adelaide, 20 years ago, they would still have playing for them
Gillespie, Davies, Johnson, Mauran, Williams, Williams - all more than 30 but with some pretty good grade cricket left in them. The players do not do that these days, leaving no experience in their team and no one to assist to develop the Jennings, Payne, etc. etc that are coming through. Society turning 24/7 has caused this, it used to be 8 hours a day 5 days a week.

[Bulls forever]

Bulls, doing all that research of old threads I take it that you have retired from your day job,

Locky, no watching another SACA game, all good I hope.

[Bulls forever]

SACA contract 20 odd players,

If you're sick of it being raised, perhaps you should understand what is being said. I'm not talking about the top 20 players in the state right now. I'm talking about the guys that in 5 year should be in the top 20. But what level do the best young kids outside the 20 contracted players play? Grade cricket. The improvement at grade level BEFORE they get to a state contract level is not as much as it should be.

By all means go and stick your head in the sand at whichever grade club you belong and instead of wondering why a guy the standard Cullen Bailey can bat 9 for SA and 4 for his grade side (and make bucketloads of runs there) just pat yourselves on the back about how well you're going. But if that happens, SA will just have to keep importing players who didn't stagnate during their years in grade cricket.

Doesnt Bailey have 1 or 2 first class hundreds? he's also hit a few grade ones, no slouch with the bat. Its not un common for this to occur and im not saying the standard of Grade Cricket is completely satisfactory either. This scenario doesnt mean CB is the 9th best batsmen in the state it means he is in the side for his bowling and 9th best bat in the team but when he goes back to Grade level he is top 5 standard..... SAme could be said for Daniel Harris and his bowling.

No, he's certainly useful with the bat at state level. But he has a first class average of just under 19 (no hundreds). I get that he may well be good enough to bat 6 or something at district level, but he shouldn't be consistently the best bat in the side.

Graham, your whole argument is blown over the use of Bailey. Dennis Lillie played grade cricket as a batsman, James Pattison whilst injured this year played Grade Cricket as a batsman, Coyte from NSW bats at 3 or 4 for his grade side. This just highlights the step up from grade to first class, it is not only in SA, it is throughout Aus. The reason these blokes can do this is the extensive exposure they get to the game of cricket and the development in their games, it does not mean they will make a first class hundred.

[Bulls forever]

SACA contract 20 odd players,

If you're sick of it being raised, perhaps you should understand what is being said. I'm not talking about the top 20 players in the state right now. I'm talking about the guys that in 5 year should be in the top 20. But what level do the best young kids outside the 20 contracted players play? Grade cricket. The improvement at grade level BEFORE they get to a state contract level is not as much as it should be.

By all means go and stick your head in the sand at whichever grade club you belong and instead of wondering why a guy the standard Cullen Bailey can bat 9 for SA and 4 for his grade side (and make bucketloads of runs there) just pat yourselves on the back about how well you're going. But if that happens, SA will just have to keep importing players who didn't stagnate during their years in grade cricket.

Where are you coming from, the best young kids outside the 20 contracted players are all in the SACA underage system U15, U17, U19 & futures league, its not rocket science, just requires an understanding of the system. You obviously do not understand the development system that is in process at SACA, the use of the Centre of Excellence in Brisbane, etc. etc.