Terrifying

[topsywaldron]

How do you reckon the current batch of flat track bullies who masquerade as the Australian batting line up, Hussey excepted, would go facing this over? Without a helmet mind you.

[redandblack]

Or much padding.

[rogernumber10]

How do you reckon the current batch of flat track bullies who masquerade as the Australian batting line up, Hussey excepted, would go facing this over? Without a helmet mind you.

No youtube at work so can't look until get home. Who is it bowling?

ABC TV replayed the oustanding Mike Coward 'Cricket in the 60s' special on Saturday arvo and watching again some of Charlie Griffith bowling / chucking to Lawry, Simpson et al in the Caribbean was scary stuff.

[Grahaml]

Holding bowling short to some bloke who looked very English.

Actually, I think Holding would have been hit for 4 4s if Gilchrist or Ponting were playing. Holding looke sharp, but not much quicker than what some of the quicker guys in world cricket bowl at the moment. No idea how Clarke, Symonds and Jacques would go, but I'm sure they would be fine. Hayden and Hussey would be fine as well.

[redandblack]

Holding bowling short to some bloke who looked very English.

Actually, I think Holding would have been hit for 4 4s if Gilchrist or Ponting were playing. Holding looke sharp, but not much quicker than what some of the quicker guys in world cricket bowl at the moment. No idea how Clarke, Symonds and Jacques would go, but I'm sure they would be fine. Hayden and Hussey would be fine as well.

That 'some bloke' is Brian Close.

As for Michael Holding being hit for 4 fours, especially by players such as Jaques and Clarke, you're obviously not a cricket follower.

[topsywaldron]

Actually, I think Holding would have been hit for 4 4s if Gilchrist or Ponting were playing.

Let's take their helmets off and see if they're stroking the ball through the covers or pulling so confidently.

The same applies to any current batsmen BTW.

[Grahaml]

I think at this stage of their careers they wouldn't be too affected by removing their helmets. They would play the shot on instinct by now. Perhaps if they'd not grown up with that protection it might be tougher.

Anyway, 4 of those balls were the exact length that those two players butcher. 2 very good bouncers in that over and 4 he got away with because the guy couldn't play a shot. Regardless, I doubt Holding would be bowling those balls to Gilly or Ponting, but if he did they would have crashed them through whatever gap was left for them on the leg.

However, I like how you didn't quite understand what I said. I named 2 blokes who would have hit those boundaries, and thought the others would cope well enough. Push the ball down leg or something. Remember, this bloke was a bowler who could bat a bit. Heck, even I've made blokes look silly with short pitched bowling and the ball barely makes the other end when I bowl short.

[RoosterMarty]

Actually, I think Holding would have been hit for 4 4s if Gilchrist or Ponting were playing.

Let's take their helmets off and see if they're stroking the ball through the covers or pulling so confidently.

The same applies to any current batsmen BTW.

It's not so much the cover driving but hooking and pulling with a helmet would be a hell of a lot easier. A smack in the helmet can draw some blood but it's better protection than skin!

[redandblack]

Holding was a great bowler in arguably the best team ever.

You've got him going for 16 off 4 balls. Ponting and co. don't do that against anyone current, let alone one of the greats.

[rogernumber10]

I think all the members of the '76 England side really appreciated the captain Tony Greig declaring he would make the Windies grovel. Roberts and Holding spent the whole summer bouncing them silly, while Richards, Fredericks, Kallicharran and Lloyd pounded the ball everywhere.

[gadj1976]

I think at this stage of their careers they wouldn't be too affected by removing their helmets. They would play the shot on instinct by now. Perhaps if they'd not grown up with that protection it might be tougher.

Anyway, 4 of those balls were the exact length that those two players butcher. 2 very good bouncers in that over and 4 he got away with because the guy couldn't play a shot. Regardless, I doubt Holding would be bowling those balls to Gilly or Ponting, but if he did they would have crashed them through whatever gap was left for them on the leg.

However, I like how you didn't quite understand what I said. I named 2 blokes who would have hit those boundaries, and thought the others would cope well enough. Push the ball down leg or something. Remember, this bloke was a bowler who could bat a bit. Heck, even I've made blokes look silly with short pitched bowling and the ball barely makes the other end when I bowl short.

You're either over-estimating how good Australia is, or under-estimating how good Holding was. They'd struggle to hit 4 4's with helmets on against Holding circa late 70's. He was like Shaoib Akhtar (pace wise), except constantly on the spot. Then instead of having some medium pacer to pick on at the other end, in strolled Garner, Roberts, Colin "I like seeing batsman hurt" Croft... No picnic for any batsman.

[RustyCage]

Actually, I think Holding would have been hit for 4 4s if Gilchrist or Ponting were playing.

Let's take their helmets off and see if they're stroking the ball through the covers or pulling so confidently.

The same applies to any current batsmen BTW.

Ponting has shown a few times in his career that he is happy to face a quick with no helmet and play the hook and pull.

As for us being flat track bullies, am I to assume we have just played 16 Tests in a row on flat tracks?

[Hondo]

I think the Windies of that era are held in so much awe they have become super-men in our minds and we have got ourselves a slight inferiority complex

Remember that back then a lot of the pitches weren't up to the standard they were today and helmets were just coming in. And they had such a reputation of imtimidation a lot of batsmen were out before they even faced a ball.

Ponting, Hayden, Gilly, Langer & co would have given those guys a good run for their money IMO. Very talented batsmen but most importantly, very confident so they would have had a real crack at them rather than back off and block for dear life. Still would have been hard work mind you - but a great contest.

S Waugh stood up to Ambrose in 1995, 4-5 years before Curtly retired. Curtly was as good as any of them, bar maybe Marshall.

[topsywaldron]

Ponting, Hayden, Gilly, Langer & co would have given those guys a good run for their money IMO.

Are those batsmen named better than IM Chappell, GS Chappell, KJ Hughes, AR Border and RW Marsh? This was the team who played against the Windies at Adelaide in 1980 and lost by over 400 runs against a bowling line up consisting of Roberts, Holding, Croft and Garner.

The current team stacks up well on statistics against the Chappell's etc only because the bowling stocks around the world are laughably low.

[JK]

The current team stacks up well on statistics against the Chappell's etc only because the bowling stocks around the world are laughably low.

Might be right mate, but there's the age old team of the century type dilemma debate, one for which we can never know the answer.

FWIW, I reckon those Windies fast bowlers were unbelievably good and NOT overrated in the slightest ... Also think the Aussie batsmen of current era listed above are better than we had back then - Personal thoughts only.

[topsywaldron]

Don't even start me on the boundaries being so much further in or the new fangled cricket bats that only need to be waved at the ball for it to go for six.

I HAVE turned into my Grandfather.

Out of the players mentioned GS Chappell and A Border would surely get into any Australian cricket team of any era?

[JK]

Out of the players mentioned GS Chappell and A Border would surely get into any Australian cricket team of any era?

Wouldn't say any, but yeah, most imo

[Hondo]

Are those batsmen named better than IM Chappell, GS Chappell, KJ Hughes, AR Border and RW Marsh? This was the team who played against the Windies at Adelaide in 1980 and lost by over 400 runs against a bowling line up consisting of Roberts, Holding, Croft and Garner.

Don't get me wrong - I think that Windies side would just shade S Waugh's team because of their great bowlers - but it would be VERY close IMO

To compare the batting line-ups:

Hayden beats Weiner/McCosker/Toohey (can't remember who it was back then)
Langer beats Laird
Ponting beats I Chappell
G Chappell beats M Waugh
S Waugh beats K Hughes
Border beats Martyn
Gilly beats Marsh

That makes 5-2 so answer to your question is yes - S Waugh had a superior batting line-up. And S Waugh didn't have the Huss

As for the bowling line-ups:

Lillee, Thommo, Walker/Dymock, Mallet (IIRC)
v
McGrath, Lee, Gillespie, Warne

IMO another win for S Waugh's team (with respect given to Lillee)

[silicone skyline]

With so many "great" bowlers in the space of 20 years say, why haven't the windies generated one consistent, quick, intimidating bowler in the past 10 years or so?
There's plenty of promise, Edwards and Taylor are quick and at times brilliant, but the way Australian batsmen crack them around, they aren't up to standard are they?
They're not intimidating.
Few bowlers in the world are intimidating now.
I think bowling is an art where innovation has run out, there is no "new" technique, just basic science to try and be as quick as you can, and consistent, while remaining fit.
Batsmen have evolving equipment assisting them every year, whether it be protective, or their bats.
Has the world's bowling gotten worse?
I don't think so.
The pace is there, the line is around the mark.
I think conditions are just more favourable to batsman to bat longer, feel protected, and make more runs.
Like the helmet argument goes, let's see a batsman face brett lee without any pads at all and see if he long he lasts.
the Windies bowlers weren't super humanly quicker then bowlers today.
They INTIMIDATED.
Batsmen didn't feel neither safe or confident.
You do things by halves in cricket, you get out.
Focus is the key, and if you're worried about getting knocked out, you're not going to be focussed.
Close was batting for survival.
As tough as it was, he wasn't looking to score, just to stay out there.
If he had a helmet on and padding in the right places, i'm dead certain he would have had more confidence to get the ones that were barely rib height behind it and whip it over square.
The scorchers that nearly whiped his face off well ... they were CRACKERS.
No batsman today would attempt to hit them.

[rogernumber10]

Very controversially - I'm also going to suggest that the art of a 4-5 over spell containing 10-12 short balls right up the nose is dying out because:

- you can't bowl more than a single ball like that in more than half the cricket you play anyway (one-dayers and 20/20)
- most pitches are favoured towards the bat, with only a couple in Australia, 1-2 in England and 1-2 in South Africa ever producing good fast bounce, let alone steepling bounce like an old time WACA wicket.
- most bowlers are trying to conserve themselves with the sheer amount of cricket they play.

I reckon you can go mad and bowl flat out fast off a 40-yard run if you're playing 8 Tests a year in the 80s and 9 one-dayers, compared to 15 Tests these days, 30 one-dayers and five 20/20s.

Padding and better equipment, agreed, a massive lift for batsmen too. Pre 1980, anyone past about number 9 just had a swing, and gave up his wicket pretty quickly. Nowadays, everyone possible bats to score runs, and help their team.