Are Australia TOO GOOD?

[Hondo]

Tassie there is some devil in the detail in that 81-82 series.

· 1st test in Melbourne we won the toss and committed the Windies to a 4th innings on one of the worst pitches in modern history. Won by 58 runs

· 2nd test we drew thanks to bad light, rain and a slow John Dyson century in the 4th innings

· 3rd test they won in Adelaide to finally draw the 3 test series. A fortunate 1-1 result for us in reality.

2 years earlier it was 3-0 their way. WSC days, all their way. 84-85 it was 3-1 their way.

Also in 81-82, Greenidge missed the 1st test, Viv Richards was strangely out of touch (as was G Chappell), Dujon played as a batsmen at number 6 and Richardson & Marshall hadn’t started. I see it as a slight vulnerable window in their dominant era.

Even in 92-93 when we were on the road to dominance (with Warnie) and they were waning with only Haynes, Richardson, Walsh & Ambrose from their dream team remaining (plus B Lara) we still couldn’t get over the top of them. That’s even with Taylor, Boon, M Waugh, S Waugh & Border who, in terms of batting power, aren’t that much behind the current group.

[Hondo]

But the sum of the parts I'd back Waugh teams over the Chappell teams everyteam

I'd agree with that

I still don't think its enough to get them over the line against those Windies fast bowlers

Its arguable that the Windies 15 year dominance happened over an era where the overall standard was higher than it is today too. There's a whole other topic . I worry that we don't get a decent enough opposition these days and some of the stats are getting inflated. Apart from Warnie's.

[am Bays]

Tassie there is some devil in the detail in that 81-82 series.

· 1st test in Melbourne we won the toss and committed the Windies to a 4th innings on one of the worst pitches in modern history. Won by 58 runs

So the fact we batted on the same pitch and made runs is immaterial. Batting on day 4 Border could make 66 but the Windies top order apart from Dujon (playing as a batsman that test) couldn't get above 40 (he made 43)

· 2nd test we drew thanks to bad light, rain and a slow John Dyson century in the 4th innings

Sorry he batted so well to help salvage a draw, shows you could make runs agaisnt them if you applied yourself in the same way S waugh showed years down the track

· 3rd test they won in Adelaide to finally draw the 3 test series. A fortunate 1-1 result for us in reality.

In that test Australia lost K Hughes (broken toe), G Chappell (broken finger) and Lillee (groin) to injury after the game commenced - Lillee came out on the last day and bowled of six paces to try and get a breakthrough. Could we have forced a draw with those three at full fitness??? Were the Windies fortunate to win it?

In 92-93 it was our inexperience that cost us in the same way the Windies inexperience cost tehm in 75-76. We didn't know how to win. As Ian Chappell says in the Chappell era, "no way were we a 5-1 better team than them, 3-2 or 4-2 maybe, but it was our hardened experience built up over the last 3 years that got us a 5-1 result."

Look don't get me wrong the 80-85 Windies team was a great team one of the best teams arguably one of the best three teams ever (the 00-02 Australians and the 48 Australian team).

It would be a great contest between Lloyds team of the early 80s and S Waughs team.

Both hardened experienced teams that knew how to win.
Great attacks - they had better fast bowlers (pace and bounce) we had better variety (Pace, bounce, swing and spin)
the two best (statisically) opening combinations in the history of cricket
Attacking Middle orders with an accumulater/farmer at 5/6 (Gomes/S Waugh)
the two best batsmen/keepers in the game (Dujon/Gilchrist)

On fast bouncy wickets Lloyds team would win (Perth)
On turners and roads I'd back S Waughs team (Sydney and Adelaide)
Brisbane and Melbourne are the unknowns given Warnes history of success at both venues and the fact Melbourne can be up and down - hard to bat on favours the pacemen. But the swing of Brisbane would bring Gillespie into play. Good swing and spin bowling always brought them undone. My gut feeling is they would win in Brisbane we would win in Melbourne.

[GWW]

Didn't Gomes used to bat at first drop?

[am Bays]

Didn't Gomes used to bat at first drop?

In 84-85 it was Greenidge, Haynes, Richardson, Richards, Lloyd Gomes, Dujon, MArshall - the rest of you blokes sort it out yourselves.......

[mal]

TASSIE thats a very impressive argument you have put forward
You say AU 3-2
I say WI 2-3 or 1-4
Good points on which pitches suits which teams

One thing though whats the verdict if the games are played in the Carribean ?

[am Bays]

TASSIE thats a very impressive argument you have put forward
You say AU 3-2
I say WI 2-3 or 1-4
Good points on which pitches suits which teams

One thing though whats the verdict if the games are played in the Carribean ?

I already answered that 2-1 their way at worst 3-1 at best for us 2-2. Fast bouncy pitches suited their attack.

The winner in teh Carribean would be the Orthopaedic surgeons...

As I've said all thread two excellent teams who are evenly matched. If either one of them turned up more "switched on" they would win. If either side played in conditions that favoured their strengths that team would win.

MAte it would be great cricket to watch....so send the missus and kids on holidays, fill teh fridge full of p!ss and strap into that favourite chair as theu would be some sensational action....

[mal]

Perhaps a Computer Test to decide the winner

They did it for
ALI V MARCIANO [Rocky won the computer fight.]

[stan]

The reason why we are so good is to look at our domestic competion. It is very strong. Also we have the infrastructure in place to develop players. Simple we have work on a system and now enjoy the fact that it has helped us to be were we are.

[mal]

The reason why we are so good is to look at our domestic competion. It is very strong. Also we have the infrastructure in place to develop players. Simple we have work on a system and now enjoy the fact that it has helped us to be were we are.

Absolutely spot on and shows me know your cricket Stan the man.

Quite often Pura Cup attacks are as good or nearly as good as International attacks.
By the time players like HUSSEY/JAQUES play at test level its only a slight step up.
Facing p/cup new ball attacks is very difficult with the quality around.
Also those p/cup pitches are lively enough to get results in 4 days
Several test pitches are flatter and easier to bat on.

[westozfalcon]

Mal, you said in your post;-

"..By the time players like HUSSEY/JAQUES play at test level its only a slight step up..."

Actually I don't think it's a step up for them at all. Most Pura Cup attacks are better than those of non-Australian Test teams - certainly Sri Lanka's!

[rod_rooster]

Mal, you said in your post;-

"..By the time players like HUSSEY/JAQUES play at test level its only a slight step up..."

Actually I don't think it's a step up for them at all. Most Pura Cup attacks are better than those of non-Australian Test teams - certainly Sri Lanka's!

Can't really argue with that. Apart from the chucker the rest of the Lankans are pretty mediocre.

Look at some of the bowlers going around in the Sheffield Shield comp (still should be called that) and a lot of them would walk into most countries Test sides. Noffke is a good example but there are blokes like Tait, Gillespie, Hilfenhaus, Bracken etc. that can't even get a look in at the moment.

I guess the difference between Australia and the rest is the depth we have. Lee, Johnson and Clark could all break down but there are blokes to take their place. Not saying that they are quite as good but they would be adequate cover for them. Other countries don't have this and they lose one bowler and it's all over. Sri-Lanka rely so much on Murali and when he doesn't have conditions that suit him and he is bowling to good players he just isn't effective enough.

[Aerie]

Without looking at the stats to back up what I'm saying... are we seeing lower scores (i.e. under 200) more frequently in the Pura Cup the last couple of years as opposed to the decade preceding? And not just the Redbacks... Could this be a sign we'll begin to see Australia even up with the rest of the world in 3-4-5 years due to the batting not being as good as it has been?

[rod_rooster]

Might be a bit to do with the quality of bowling and the state of the wickets so far this season. On good batting decks big scores have been made but today on a green top the Vics were routed by a quality Qld attack. Good bowling on poor batting pitches results in low scores. Perhaps we should be thinking about how good the bowling is

[mal]

Very good bowlers
Livelier pitches
Lack of batting depth