SAAFL Division 7 & D7R (2012)

[morell]

Morell:what clubs have you been at beside MP to give you this well rounded view?

None. Don't need to move to Mars to know its red.

like i said..in the division you play in you can win some games on talent alone but you will NEVER get the ultimate success training like drunk sheep once a week..FACT

Never said talent alone, quit building straw men, in fact I outlined several other things:

depth, structure, discipline, game plan

As I said, being fit and strong is important. I am not saying don't train at all or don't try at trainings, doing a pre season for this is important as well, but I am saying that once you have hit a certain point in your career or if you are a certain physiological type, an extra night of training, at our level, is not going to make an iota of difference on gameday.

if you think your right lets see you lobby your coach to bring in 1 day a week training with no emphasis on energy, enthusiasm and skill at training..eh? will he do it? no..of course he wont because its wrong..and wont bring success..

Never said that either? I said an extra night of training would not help certain players, physically.

Better of doing light exercise at the pool (which our coach did last year with great results) having light skills sessions or game plan meetings - especially true late on in the year.

I will suggest this to the B grade coach for next year and see what he says...

no team wins flags without doing the work..another fact..

Agreed, you're making up your own arguments and not actually reading what I am posting.

[zedman]

oh i know what i am reading..

you think you know what goes on at 1 club and base your view of the entire football world from it..maybe you need to get out of the MP glasshouse and see the world a bit..go watch goodwood or SHOC A grade train or even a Kenilworth or Plympton if div 1 is to high for you..see how long your "theories" would last there..

"I'm with Freo - training is not as essential nor does it do as much for some, particularly with older guys it isn't going to make much difference."

"Training is massively overrated at our level."

"There is simply ZERO statistical correlation between training quality and gameday quality" <<-- to funny

"Biggest load of rubbish I have ever heard of. It's like having sex for virginity. The only thing exercising to run out sore spots does is increase pain thresholds and tolerance." <<-- even funnier..and ignorant..

"Just like stretching before training, ice baths and a bunch of other old school football myths, it is founded in misnomers, rumour and old wives tales." <<-- do you smoke crack regularly? that is a load of crap..sorry

[morell]

oh i know what i am reading..

you think you know what goes on at 1 club and base your view of the entire football world from it..maybe you need to get out of the MP glasshouse and see the world a bit..go watch goodwood or SHOC A grade train or even a Kenilworth or Plympton if div 1 is to high for you..see how long your "theories" would last there..

Not doubting my opinions would be unpopular or unacceptable to many. Not really fussed what SHOC or Goodwood think or do but I do talk Jack Horan from SHOC quite regularly

BTW, why do you think the AFL has a staggered return to training system for their players? eg Young ones return early and the older ones have more time off ...

"I'm with Freo - training is not as essential nor does it do as much for some, particularly with older guys it isn't going to make much difference."

Read the whole post in its context zedman. the key words are "for some" and "older guys"

I am saying there is no blanket rule for everyone, some people are different (both physically and mentally) and require different management. Many older guys would not benefit at all from one extra night of training, provided that had the fitness base and core strength to begin with.

"Training is massively overrated at our level."

Indeed it is...

"There is simply ZERO statistical correlation between training quality and gameday quality" <<-- to funny

How is this funny? There is no correlation between training quality and performance on gameday.

As a test get your coach to rate the performance on a Thursday, then do the same on a Saturday. If they were honest there would be no correlation between the results.

As an idea one of the worst full training sessions I have seen from a reasonably motivated and resourced Mitchell Park was the Thursday before the 2002 Div 6 Grand Final. It was a debacle and all the old men drinking their beer at the bar were exclaiming how we had no chance.

We won by 16 goals.

"Biggest load of rubbish I have ever heard of. It's like having sex for virginity. The only thing exercising to run out sore spots does is increase pain thresholds and tolerance." <<-- even funnier..and ignorant..

err, how so, its actual medical fact:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypoalgesia

"Just like stretching before training, ice baths and a bunch of other old school football myths, it is founded in misnomers, rumour and old wives tales." <<-- do you smoke crack regularly? that is a load of crap..sorry

Hmmm:

Researchers Robert Herbert, Ph.D., and Marcos de Noronha, Ph.D. of the University of Sydney conducted a systematic review and meta-analysis of 10 previously published studies of stretching either before or after athletic activity. They concluded that stretching before exercise doesn't prevent post-exercise muscle soreness. They also found little support for the theory that stretching immediately before exercise can prevent either overuse or acute sports injuries

Much of this confusion comes from a misinterpretation of research on warm up. These studies found that warming by itself has no effect on range of motion, but that when the warm up is followed by stretching there is an increase in range of motion. Many people misinterpreted this finding to mean that stretching before exercise prevents injuries, even though the clinical research suggests otherwise. A better interpretation is that warm up prevents injury, whereas stretching has no effect on injury.

http://sportsmedicine.about.com/cs/flex ... 22102a.htm

I guess Robert Herbert, Ph.D., and Marcos de Noronha, Ph.D must be smoking the same crack.

According to a 2004 review of 22 relevant studies and a computer-based literature search of 8 databases to assess the clinical evidence on ice therapy for acute soft tissue injuries, compression alone was just as effective in reducing pain as ice and compression together.

What proved more effective? Moderate cooling and compression. That’s right, temps in the 50° Fahrenheit range was the proven winner over ice and compression, and compression alone, in controlling pain and the need for pain medication.[2]

http://cooltechmarketing.com/Controlled ... myths.html

Do some research zedman. As I said, Australian Rules Football is full opinions based on little to no evidence.

[zedman]

"Not doubting my opinions would be unpopular or unacceptable to many. Not really fussed what SHOC or Goodwood think or do but I do talk Jack Horan from SHOC quite regularly

BTW, why do you think the AFL has a staggered return to training system for their players? eg Young ones return early and the older ones have more time off ..."

gee..why do they train 5 days a week then? and your staggered return is roughly 2 weeks difference..my point is you have no idea at all how other clubs do things..successful clubs..maybe you guys are doing something wrong..ever thought of that?

" am saying there is no blanket rule for everyone, some people are different (both physically and mentally) and require different management. Many older guys would not benefit at all from one extra night of training, provided that had the fitness base and core strength to begin with."

what is old?..justin salisbury trained 2 nights a week at age 40 in div 6..he actually said he had to or he wouldnt get through a year..so how do you define old?..more like lazy..

"As a test get your coach to rate the performance on a Thursday, then do the same on a Saturday. If they were honest there would be no correlation between the results."

no..as i said: "if you think your right lets see you lobby your coach to bring in 1 day a week training with no emphasis on energy, enthusiasm and skill at training..eh? will he do it? no..of course he wont because its wrong..and wont bring success.."

"err, how so, its actual medical fact"

increasing your pain threshold and tolerance IS the idea!!! LOL and i guess all those clubs that call for sunday sessions in SANFL are wrong to..

"Many people misinterpreted this finding to mean that stretching before exercise prevents injuries, even though the clinical research suggests otherwise. A better interpretation is that warm up prevents injury, whereas stretching has no effect on injury."

please..thats why the stretching gets done AFTER 2 warm up laps..heres a straw..go clutch it..once again..i watch sanfl teams and they ALL stretch before training..without fail..but you know better..and as for ice..you said ice baths..ice baths are compulsory for all players at WAFC from u/18s up once a week..FACT..compression is the go yes but thats after its been iced to stop the bleeding..once again..FACT

"What proved more effective? Moderate cooling and compression. That’s right, temps in the 50° Fahrenheit range was the proven winner over ice and compression, and compression alone, in controlling pain and the need for pain medication."

american studies lol..thats for pain reduction..not for healing..get it right..they agree ice and compression..duh?

dont need to research anything..perhaps some Australian studies might be more appropriate though..

[Q.]

If anything, training is underrated at this level. Most blokes aren't going go out during the week and do their own fitness training to maintain their aerobic capacity they've gained from a pre-season, so from that point of view, one training a week is not enough. From an observational point of view, it's always been obvious that the blokes who consistently train both nights a week at a good intensity are the ones who have a higher endurance and ability to repeat sprint on game day.

Yeah but are those blokes you see doing that stuff on Saturday able to do so because of their natural talents and physical attributes or because they trained hard on Tuesday? I know which one I reckon...

Correlation doesn't equal causation.

I've seen talented players play well below their potential because they lost their fitness base. And I'm not talking about endurance, but rather the inability to repeat sprint. When trainings simulate sprint/rest/repeat during ballwork it makes sense that performing this twice a week rather than once will reflect on your performance during game day, as a player doesn't play the game at one speed for four quarters.

Conversely, I've seen players that lack natural ability become better contributors because they increased their ability to repeatedly get to contests first.

[Q.]

Also, the first training of the week is very good for shaking off Delayed Onset Muscle Soreness.

Have you been talking to our coach? Biggest load of rubbish I have ever heard of. It's like having sex for virginity. The only thing exercising to run out sore spots does is increase pain thresholds and tolerance. This effect is called exercise-induced analgesia. There is much evidence out there it is actually a dangerous activity and can mask injuries which can lead to more serious and permanent damage.

Just like stretching before training, ice baths and a bunch of other old school football myths, it is founded in misnomers, rumour and old wives tales.

DOMS is not bad for you, it increases muscle growth and strength. It is common to experience DOMS over 72 hours after exercise, however, training through DOMS 72 hours after previous exercise will not necessarily cause injury.

There is a difference between DOMS and actual muscles injuries, which should not be trained on.

[morell]

gee..why do they train 5 days a week then? and your staggered return is roughly 2 weeks difference..my point is you have no idea at all how other clubs do things..successful clubs..maybe you guys are doing something wrong..ever thought of that?

MPFC have a very strong emphasis on training. My opinions are my own and do not reflect the wider club.

what is old?..justin salisbury trained 2 nights a week at age 40 in div 6..he actually said he had to or he wouldnt get through a year..so how do you define old?..more like lazy..

Old is a mental state. I'm old, but only 28!

Everyone is different, there is no blanket rule for all. What works for one might not work for another.

"As a test get your coach to rate the performance on a Thursday, then do the same on a Saturday. If they were honest there would be no correlation between the results."

no..as i said: "if you think your right lets see you lobby your coach to bring in 1 day a week training with no emphasis on energy, enthusiasm and skill at training..eh? will he do it? no..of course he wont because its wrong..and wont bring success.."

I don't think you understand what my point was there. The myth is that "you play as you train", I am saying, there is no correlation between how you train on a Thursday and how you play on a Saturday. Simply none.

increasing your pain threshold and tolerance IS the idea!!! LOL and i guess all those clubs that call for sunday sessions in SANFL are wrong to..

Maybe they are zedman! Everyone thought Bill James was wrong too.

Increasing your pain tolerance/threshold doesn't actually make what is causing the soreness improve or go away, it just masks it temporally whilst youre moving. Its the same theory as to why you rub a stubbed toe to make the pain go away. It doesn't actually fix the stubbed toe, it just releases chemicals in your brain to make you think it does.

In sports, it is actually dangerous, as it can mask a more serious injury or issue.

please..thats why the stretching gets done AFTER 2 warm up laps..heres a straw..go clutch it..once again..i watch sanfl teams and they ALL stretch before training..without fail..but you know better..and as for ice..you said ice baths..ice baths are compulsory for all players at WAFC from u/18s up once a week..FACT..compression is the go yes but thats after its been iced to stop the bleeding..once again..FACT

ice treatment is good for immediate reduction of swelling for injuries, I was more talking about the practice of dunking in ice baths for overall soreness and recovery. That does absolutely nothing.

here is a better link:

http://www.outsideonline.com/fitness/re ... yth-7.html

In a 2007 study in the Journal of Sports Sciences, men who completed a punishing 90-minute shuttle run and then eased themselves into a 50-degree bathtub for ten minutes told researchers afterward that they were sure they were less sore than they would have been without the bath. Yet their levels of creatine kinase, a hallmark of muscle damage, remained the same as in runners who hadn’t soaked. Also in 2007, in one of the few randomized controlled tests examining the popular practice, 40 volunteers did seated leg extensions until near exhaustion. Afterward, half sat in lukewarm water while the other half sat in an ice bath. Next day, those who’d ice-bathed were just as sore as the control group. In fact, the ice bathers reported more pain than the others during a test in which they were asked to rise out of a chair using their tired leg for support. The authors concluded that the “protocol of ice-water immersion was ineffectual.[/quote]

[Freo HeaveHo]

Im not saying that teams should change to one night a week cause two nights a week is not much commitment to ask of a playing group. But i just cant understand why teams begin training in november and that at this level other than to get the group together and welcome in new players.... training is hugely over rated.

I have played / observed training sessions in multiple teams in and around this level of football. And there would be very few teams that actually put there teams through a hard enough program to get an advantage over other teams anyway. You get some players that thrive on it and a lot that winge whenever there are running or strength exercises asked of them . How many blokes at your clubs get the dreaded leg tightness when it gets to this point of summer training ?? Generally the ones that do all the hard work are the same players that the club relies on come gamedays.

I dont want to sound negative, but in low div amatuer footy you get a great range of players. Some that have grown up and live and die for there club , that are capable of playin at much higher level. The ones that are very handy but hate training. and the ones that never miss a session but struggle to kick over a jam tin. That is the beauty of low division football.

[morell]

Also, the first training of the week is very good for shaking off Delayed Onset Muscle Soreness.

Have you been talking to our coach? Biggest load of rubbish I have ever heard of. It's like having sex for virginity. The only thing exercising to run out sore spots does is increase pain thresholds and tolerance. This effect is called exercise-induced analgesia. There is much evidence out there it is actually a dangerous activity and can mask injuries which can lead to more serious and permanent damage.

Just like stretching before training, ice baths and a bunch of other old school football myths, it is founded in misnomers, rumour and old wives tales.

DOMS is not bad for you, it increases muscle growth and strength. It is common to experience DOMS over 72 hours after exercise, however, training through DOMS 72 hours after previous exercise will not necessarily cause injury.

There is a difference between DOMS and actual muscles injuries, which should not be trained on.

Indeed, you have to actually damage or tear muscles (sarcomeres if I remember my uni elective correctly) to grow them and make them stronger. That damage or tearing is what can cause DOMS. Not saying DOMS is a bad thing, I am saying the exercise afterwards to remove/alleviate DOMS can be. IMO.

[morell]

Im not saying that teams should change to one night a week cause two nights a week is not much commitment to ask of a playing group. But i just cant understand why teams begin training in november and that at this level other than to get the group together and welcome in new players.... training is hugely over rated.

I have played / observed training sessions in multiple teams in and around this level of football. And there would be very few teams that actually put there teams through a hard enough program to get an advantage over other teams anyway. You get some players that thrive on it and a lot that winge whenever there are running or strength exercises asked of them . How many blokes at your clubs get the dreaded leg tightness when it gets to this point of summer training ?? Generally the ones that do all the hard work are the same players that the club relies on come gamedays.

I dont want to sound negative, but in low div amatuer footy you get a great range of players. Some that have grown up and live and die for there club , that are capable of playin at much higher level. The ones that are very handy but hate training. and the ones that never miss a session but struggle to kick over a jam tin. That is the beauty of low division football.

Correctamundo

[Freo HeaveHo]

Zedman your comment regarding SANFL sunday sessions is another view i feel strongly about..... some as at amatuer level you get players of different commitment levels.

Glenelg may aswell not bother with them .... what the hell is the point of getting up early in the freezing cold in the middle of winter to wade through water ????

How is that going to speed recovery ???? Of course it would ... but not when over half your playing group have drunk either the holdy or the Jetty bar out of alcohol !!!!

[supersonicgun]

Geez wasn't expecting this sort of response,afta reading all this I think morell is right and zed is wrong all I know is when your in your 30's u are still bloody sore on a Tuesday nite but by Thursday your fresh and ready to go

[Freo HeaveHo]

Geez wasn't expecting this sort of response,afta reading all this I think morell is right and zed is wrong all I know is when your in your 30's u are still bloody sore on a Tuesday nite but by Thursday your fresh and ready to go

And near 30 isnt much better either .... i remember first playing senior footy and thinkin all the older blokes were a bunch of sooks .... what id give to be 18 again

[Perfect Drug]

Geez wasn't expecting this sort of response,afta reading all this I think morell is right and zed is wrong all I know is when your in your 30's u are still bloody sore on a Tuesday nite but by Thursday your fresh and ready to go

Well I gotta agree with Zed overall, even as an oldy myself.

I do see some of what Morell is saying... training requirements change with age. I still think 2 nights is better off at this level, even if night 1 is pure recovery during the season. Massage, laps, bike, swim etc

This is all brought on by talking about a guy who refuses to train more than once a week, ever....that in itself is not acceptable imo. Sure there may often be times througout the season where it is the case, but it should not be allowed to be considered the norm.

[BFG]

Im not saying that teams should change to one night a week cause two nights a week is not much commitment to ask of a playing group. But i just cant understand why teams begin training in november and that at this level other than to get the group together and welcome in new players.... training is hugely over rated.

I have played / observed training sessions in multiple teams in and around this level of football. And there would be very few teams that actually put there teams through a hard enough program to get an advantage over other teams anyway. You get some players that thrive on it and a lot that winge whenever there are running or strength exercises asked of them . How many blokes at your clubs get the dreaded leg tightness when it gets to this point of summer training ?? Generally the ones that do all the hard work are the same players that the club relies on come gamedays.

I dont want to sound negative, but in low div amatuer footy you get a great range of players. Some that have grown up and live and die for there club , that are capable of playin at much higher level. The ones that are very handy but hate training. and the ones that never miss a session but struggle to kick over a jam tin. That is the beauty of low division football.

very true!! we have players in all three categories at CLG

i personally love training and think that two nights a week is the correct amount. im of the opinion that it is very important at the start of the year and towards the end of the year its used more as a method of maintaining what has been achieved in preseason and the early part of the playing year.

[Esteban Vihaio]

I've played in premiership and woodenspoon sides. The more oftenplayers attend high quality tainings, the better the team plays. Period.

Older and especially the more physical players often need a lighter schedule, but at a minimum, they need to be at training, walking laps and getting involved.

[Yank Man]

You on holidays Morrell. Sorry but I'm old school and think 2 nights a week is important. Yes you do have to manage your senior players but the work they can do with your youth is invaluable just by being there. That said most of SHOC C's trained one night a week, except the core group of players who pushed for a spot in the reserves, and look at what they did to Div 7 last year. The best 2 nights at MP were prior to round 17 that led to a victory against the Premiers and the worst 2 were prior to round 13 that resulted in the worst loss of the year to Nth Pines. Attitude and numbers at training is the critical formula. So there is plenty of merit in all discussions but in the end it's the coaches choice and ultimately he lives or dies by the sword.

[Jetters]

There is some strong broscience going on here.

Morell to suggest when you hit a certain age your physical capabilities some how hits some sort of constant is ridiculous.

[Q.]

There is some strong broscience going on here.

Morell to suggest when you hit a certain age your physical capabilities some how hits some sort of constant is ridiculous.

Braaaaah!

Randy Couture agrees with you.

[Footy Chick]

Sorry, I thought I was in the d7 thread, not the sports science weekly thread

Will go back and read from the beginning of this discussion and add my $0.02