The South Australian Political Landscape

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Re: The South Australian Political Landscape

Postby Psyber » Sun Nov 29, 2020 10:07 am

Well, if the drivers of electric vehicles don't pay to maintain the roads somehow should the rest of us be excused from the component of petrol or diesel fuel pricing that is levied for the same purpose?

I have been looking at the electric and hybrid market as I'm thinking of replacing my wife's old i30 with an SUV, but there are two significant issues that concern me about that direction. One is the limited range of current purely electric vehicles. The other is the fact that the batteries have limited life, are not being recycled because it costs a lot more than just making a new one, and that Lithium is a highly toxic material not easily disposed of if not being recycled.

The green enthusiasts would be better focused on developing affordable hydrogen fuel technology, as all existing petrol cars can be converted to run on that and there will thus be a saving in not having to make a lot of expensive new cars or store or dump the used lithium batteries and old cars if we make going electric the target.

All that comes out of a hydrogen driven motor's exhaust is water vapour.

You may find this interesting : https://www.renewablessa.sa.gov.au/topi ... d25c754fec
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Re: The South Australian Political Landscape

Postby Q. » Mon Nov 30, 2020 1:34 pm

Psyber wrote:Well, if the drivers of electric vehicles don't pay to maintain the roads somehow should the rest of us be excused from the component of petrol or diesel fuel pricing that is levied for the same purpose?


Two things here:

1. Fuel excise does not go toward road maintenance and hasn't for decades
2. EV cars already pay more total tax over the life of a vehicle than ICE cars
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Re: The South Australian Political Landscape

Postby Trader » Mon Nov 30, 2020 1:40 pm

Q. wrote:
Psyber wrote:Well, if the drivers of electric vehicles don't pay to maintain the roads somehow should the rest of us be excused from the component of petrol or diesel fuel pricing that is levied for the same purpose?


Two things here:

1. Fuel excise does not go toward road maintenance and hasn't for decades
2. EV cars already pay more total tax over the life of a vehicle than ICE cars


I haven't done any research, and am taking you at your word that fuel excise doesn't go to road maintenance. That's fine.

What does it go to? (To be honest, I don't care).

Whatever the answer is, that item needs funding, and if there is a decrease in fuel excise coming in as more cars become EVs, then that tax needs to be replaced.

(I get that you were just responding to the argument posted above about maintaining roads - I was just continuing the discussion in a different direction).
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Re: The South Australian Political Landscape

Postby Q. » Mon Nov 30, 2020 1:48 pm

Psyber wrote:I have been looking at the electric and hybrid market as I'm thinking of replacing my wife's old i30 with an SUV, but there are two significant issues that concern me about that direction. One is the limited range of current purely electric vehicles. The other is the fact that the batteries have limited life, are not being recycled because it costs a lot more than just making a new one, and that Lithium is a highly toxic material not easily disposed of if not being recycled.


A lot of these questions have already been answered.

Start here:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2542435119302715

Regarding battery lifetime, it is important to note that great strides have been made in recent years. Currently, cars are scrapped when motor maintenance becomes too expensive. Since the electric motor outlasts most other car components without maintenance, the motor will no longer be the bottleneck for a BEV. Buchal et al. assume the battery becomes the new bottleneck and will be scrapped after 150k km while a diesel would last 300k km.5 But current batteries are estimated to last at least 1,500 to 3,000 cycles before they lose 20% of capacity,8 giving an electric car with 450 km of range a battery lifetime of 450k to 1,350k km. Increases to between 5,000 and more than 10,000 cycles are expected in 2030.8 Advances like solid-state electrolyte could further increase the lifetime while making batteries non-flammable. Thus, the 300k km that is assumed for the diesel seems a conservative value for the battery and is adopted here, but it seems probable that future BEVs will last much longer than current cars.
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Re: The South Australian Political Landscape

Postby Q. » Mon Nov 30, 2020 1:52 pm

Trader wrote:
Q. wrote:
Psyber wrote:Well, if the drivers of electric vehicles don't pay to maintain the roads somehow should the rest of us be excused from the component of petrol or diesel fuel pricing that is levied for the same purpose?


Two things here:

1. Fuel excise does not go toward road maintenance and hasn't for decades
2. EV cars already pay more total tax over the life of a vehicle than ICE cars


I haven't done any research, and am taking you at your word that fuel excise doesn't go to road maintenance. That's fine.

What does it go to? (To be honest, I don't care).

Whatever the answer is, that item needs funding, and if there is a decrease in fuel excise coming in as more cars become EVs, then that tax needs to be replaced.

(I get that you were just responding to the argument posted above about maintaining roads - I was just continuing the discussion in a different direction).


It goes into a pool with many many other federal taxes.

EV cars already pay more in total taxes than ICE cars, so there's no need to replace the fuel excise.

Also worth noting that the EV tax is a State based tax grab. The fuel excise is federal.
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Re: The South Australian Political Landscape

Postby Trader » Mon Nov 30, 2020 1:57 pm

Is it true that EV cars pay more tax than ICE as they are more expensive and are therefore paying more stamp duty, etc?

Or are there specific taxes that only apply to EV cars? (other than this current one we are discussing). If so, do you know what they are?
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Re: The South Australian Political Landscape

Postby Q. » Mon Nov 30, 2020 2:05 pm

Trader wrote:Is it true that EV cars pay more tax than ICE as they are more expensive and are therefore paying more stamp duty, etc?

Or are there specific taxes that only apply to EV cars? (other than this current one we are discussing). If so, do you know what they are?


LCT + stamp duty + GST
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Re: The South Australian Political Landscape

Postby Q. » Mon Nov 30, 2020 2:10 pm

TBH, I don't actually have a problem with having a tax on EVs to generate revenue, except that without a subsidy it simply halts uptake of EVs.

Introduce the tax but provide a subsidy that cancels out the tax + incentivizes uptake, until we reach a point where EVs reach price parity with ICE. Then remove the subsidies and you've simultaneously encouraged quick adoption of EVs and have a new tax to capitalize on.
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Re: The South Australian Political Landscape

Postby Jimmy_041 » Mon Nov 30, 2020 3:05 pm

Q. wrote:
Trader wrote:Is it true that EV cars pay more tax than ICE as they are more expensive and are therefore paying more stamp duty, etc?

Or are there specific taxes that only apply to EV cars? (other than this current one we are discussing). If so, do you know what they are?


LCT + stamp duty + GST


There must be a tax on EVs I dont know about

Luxury Car Tax comes in at a higher price for fuel efficient cars - $75,526 and $67,525 for all other vehicles.
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Re: The South Australian Political Landscape

Postby Q. » Mon Nov 30, 2020 4:59 pm

Jimmy_041 wrote:
Q. wrote:
Trader wrote:Is it true that EV cars pay more tax than ICE as they are more expensive and are therefore paying more stamp duty, etc?

Or are there specific taxes that only apply to EV cars? (other than this current one we are discussing). If so, do you know what they are?


LCT + stamp duty + GST


There must be a tax on EVs I dont know about

Luxury Car Tax comes in at a higher price for fuel efficient cars - $75,526 and $67,525 for all other vehicles.


At present the average tax paid on a EV cars is higher than the average tax paid on ICE cars.

The point is we should be encouraging uptake of EVs to get to price parity, which would bring that average tax discrepancy down.

We have a tax on cigarettes, but when someone gives up smoking we don't tax them for giving up smoking to recoup the lost tax.
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Re: The South Australian Political Landscape

Postby daysofourlives » Mon Nov 30, 2020 7:27 pm

Trader wrote:
Q. wrote:
Psyber wrote:Well, if the drivers of electric vehicles don't pay to maintain the roads somehow should the rest of us be excused from the component of petrol or diesel fuel pricing that is levied for the same purpose?


Two things here:

1. Fuel excise does not go toward road maintenance and hasn't for decades
2. EV cars already pay more total tax over the life of a vehicle than ICE cars


I haven't done any research, and am taking you at your word that fuel excise doesn't go to road maintenance. That's fine.

What does it go to? (To be honest, I don't care).

Whatever the answer is, that item needs funding, and if there is a decrease in fuel excise coming in as more cars become EVs, then that tax needs to be replaced.

(I get that you were just responding to the argument posted above about maintaining roads - I was just continuing the discussion in a different direction).


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Re: The South Australian Political Landscape

Postby stan » Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:07 pm

daysofourlives wrote:
Trader wrote:
Q. wrote:
Psyber wrote:Well, if the drivers of electric vehicles don't pay to maintain the roads somehow should the rest of us be excused from the component of petrol or diesel fuel pricing that is levied for the same purpose?


Two things here:

1. Fuel excise does not go toward road maintenance and hasn't for decades
2. EV cars already pay more total tax over the life of a vehicle than ICE cars


I haven't done any research, and am taking you at your word that fuel excise doesn't go to road maintenance. That's fine.

What does it go to? (To be honest, I don't care).

Whatever the answer is, that item needs funding, and if there is a decrease in fuel excise coming in as more cars become EVs, then that tax needs to be replaced.

(I get that you were just responding to the argument posted above about maintaining roads - I was just continuing the discussion in a different direction).


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Re: The South Australian Political Landscape

Postby Dinglinga75 » Wed Dec 02, 2020 3:41 pm

The work experience kid Stephen Knoll retiring at the next state election

Was Piccolo going to contest his seat.....
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Re: The South Australian Political Landscape

Postby Psyber » Fri Dec 11, 2020 6:29 pm

I'll accept the argument that the fuel tax may not all go to roads but into the general pool, as I can't be bothered researching it.

However, if current batteries are so good and durable, when it came to my solar panels on the roof why did the guys doing every quote I got in advise me to put in a battery ready system but hold of on buying the battery until the technology and life span is better??
I can't see any gain for them as I had the cash to pay for the lot outright.

(I'm also still concern about disposal of the lithium residuals when they do die.)
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Re: The South Australian Political Landscape

Postby Q. » Fri Dec 11, 2020 7:09 pm

Psyber wrote:I'll accept the argument that the fuel tax may not all go to roads but into the general pool, as I can't be bothered researching it.

However, if current batteries are so good and durable, when it came to my solar panels on the roof why did the guys doing every quote I got in advise me to put in a battery ready system but hold of on buying the battery until the technology and life span is better??
I can't see any gain for them as I had the cash to pay for the lot outright.

(I'm also still concern about disposal of the lithium residuals when they do die.)


I weighed up the same conundrum when we installed solar last year. Battery tech is evolving on a logarithmic scale - it's not that what is currently available isn't useful, it's just that what was available then has already been superseded and is rapidly improving. I decided to wait (and put the money to installing outdoor blinds in the alfresco area instead). I'm with Amber Electric now and basically pay **** all each month anyway due to having access to wholesale pricing.

There's a good article here that discusses the potential short-term evolution of batteries (also discusses recycling):

Prospective improvements in cost and cycle life of off-grid lithium-ion battery packs: An analysis informed by expert elicitations

Here's the thing, as car batteries improve to last between 5,000 and more than 10,000 cycles (we will be at +10,000 by 2030), we won't even need to install home batteries. The car will act as the source of power at night - charge during the day using solar, then use it to power the home at night. Essentially, rapid uptake of EV will stabilise the grid.
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Re: The South Australian Political Landscape

Postby Trader » Fri Dec 11, 2020 11:47 pm

Q. wrote:Here's the thing, as car batteries improve to last between 5,000 and more than 10,000 cycles (we will be at +10,000 by 2030), we won't even need to install home batteries. The car will act as the source of power at night - charge during the day using solar, then use it to power the home at night. Essentially, rapid uptake of EV will stabilise the grid.


How does the car charge during the day when the solar panels are on the roof of my home and the car is in the work carpark?
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Re: The South Australian Political Landscape

Postby Q. » Sat Dec 12, 2020 7:00 am

Trader wrote:
Q. wrote:Here's the thing, as car batteries improve to last between 5,000 and more than 10,000 cycles (we will be at +10,000 by 2030), we won't even need to install home batteries. The car will act as the source of power at night - charge during the day using solar, then use it to power the home at night. Essentially, rapid uptake of EV will stabilise the grid.


How does the car charge during the day when the solar panels are on the roof of my home and the car is in the work carpark?


The work carpark will have charging points that run on solar.
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Re: The South Australian Political Landscape

Postby Armchair expert » Sat Dec 12, 2020 9:24 am

Q. wrote:
Trader wrote:
Q. wrote:Here's the thing, as car batteries improve to last between 5,000 and more than 10,000 cycles (we will be at +10,000 by 2030), we won't even need to install home batteries. The car will act as the source of power at night - charge during the day using solar, then use it to power the home at night. Essentially, rapid uptake of EV will stabilise the grid.


How does the car charge during the day when the solar panels are on the roof of my home and the car is in the work carpark?


The work carpark will have charging points that run on solar.



What if the carpark is underground
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Re: The South Australian Political Landscape

Postby Q. » Sat Dec 12, 2020 11:14 am

Armchair expert wrote:
Q. wrote:
Trader wrote:
Q. wrote:Here's the thing, as car batteries improve to last between 5,000 and more than 10,000 cycles (we will be at +10,000 by 2030), we won't even need to install home batteries. The car will act as the source of power at night - charge during the day using solar, then use it to power the home at night. Essentially, rapid uptake of EV will stabilise the grid.


How does the car charge during the day when the solar panels are on the roof of my home and the car is in the work carpark?


The work carpark will have charging points that run on solar.



What if the carpark is underground


Does the building have a roof?

You also can't see the forest for the trees. In South Australia at least, we are basically at a point where for most of the day the grid itself is powered by renewables. So an EV plugged into the grid during the day is charged using renewable energy, regardless of whether that charging point itself is running directly off solar.
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Re: The South Australian Political Landscape

Postby Psyber » Mon Dec 14, 2020 4:48 pm

The good news is that my latest bill from my electricity provider (Simply Energy) was for zero, and they advised I was in the top 4% of energy providers to them in SA. 8)
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