SA Footy

Anyone been watching this develop?

After the French busted them for fraud, a church spokesperson agreed to do an interview with that Indian-looking British journo and walked out half way through.

I don't know a lot about them, other than what I saw on South Park, but yeah, looks like the church's aggressive, dictative ways are coming back to haunt them with extreme public backlash.

silicone skyline wrote:Anyone been watching this develop?

After the French busted them for fraud, a church spokesperson agreed to do an interview with that Indian-looking British journo and walked out half way through.

I don't know a lot about them, other than what I saw on South Park, but yeah, looks like the church's aggressive, dictative ways are coming back to haunt them with extreme public backlash.

This is a business rather than a religion.

Well, that depends on who you ask yeah? I've never met a scientologist. Just heard about the celebrities who profess to being one.

mick wrote:

silicone skyline wrote:Anyone been watching this develop?

After the French busted them for fraud, a church spokesperson agreed to do an interview with that Indian-looking British journo and walked out half way through.

I don't know a lot about them, other than what I saw on South Park, but yeah, looks like the church's aggressive, dictative ways are coming back to haunt them with extreme public backlash.

This is a business rather than a religion.

No, no, that's Catholicism

I used "business" in a very loose way. TCOS is very good at suing people! I don't think it would be wise to say what they really are.

mick wrote:

silicone skyline wrote:Anyone been watching this develop?

After the French busted them for fraud, a church spokesperson agreed to do an interview with that Indian-looking British journo and walked out half way through.

I don't know a lot about them, other than what I saw on South Park, but yeah, looks like the church's aggressive, dictative ways are coming back to haunt them with extreme public backlash.

This is a business rather than a religion.

Glorified cult

dude, if you think scientology is in deep shizen, you don't understand brainwashing. That's all this is, but people keep getting sucked in by it, and still will continue to. You can throw legal action at them, it won't make a skerrick of difference in the long term.

mick wrote:

silicone skyline wrote:Anyone been watching this develop?
After the French busted them for fraud, a church spokesperson agreed to do an interview with that Indian-looking British journo and walked out half way through.
I don't know a lot about them, other than what I saw on South Park, but yeah, looks like the church's aggressive, dictative ways are coming back to haunt them with extreme public backlash.

This is a business rather than a religion.

They always were..
They invented "The Church of the New Faith", and declared themselves a religion to hide under the US constitutional provisions when they looked like being prosecuted similarly in the US many years ago.
The French applied commonsense and refused to accept they were a religion just because they professed to be one and registered a name with "Church" in it.

It might be easy enough from the outside to state that it is only a business and not a religious faith, yet I am sure its members feel quite differently! - People often say that Buddhism is a religion of Philosophies, Scientology is not really all that different when you look into it.

Does Scientology have Scriptures?

Yes. The writings and recorded spoken words of L. Ron Hubbard on the subject of Scientology collectively constitute the Scripture of the religion. He set forth the Scientology philosophy and technologies in more than 500,000 pages of writings, including dozens of books, and more than 2,000 tape-recorded lectures.

What is Scientology?

Scientology is a religion which recognizes that man is basically good and offers tools anyone can use to become happier and more able as a person and to improve conditions in life for himself and others, and to gain a profound understanding of the Supreme Being and his relationship to the Divine. Developed by L. Ron Hubbard, Scientology technology provides exact principles and a practical technology for improving spiritual awareness, self-confidence, intelligence and ability.

The word Scientology comes from the Latin word scio, meaning “know” and the Greek word logos, meaning “the word or outward form by which the inward thought is expressed and made known.” Thus, Scientology means knowing about knowing.

Scientology comprises a body of knowledge which extends from certain fundamental truths. Prime among these:

Man is an immortal spiritual being.

His experience extends well beyond a single lifetime.

His capabilities are unlimited, even if not presently realized.

Scientology further holds man to be basically good, and that his spiritual salvation depends upon himself and his fellows and his attainment of brotherhood with the universe.
Scientology is not a dogmatic religion in which one is asked to believe anything on faith. An individual discovers for himself that Scientology works by applying its principles and observing or experiencing the results.

The ultimate goal of Scientology is true spiritual enlightenment and freedom for the individual.

Beliefs:

The word "Scientology" means "the study of knowledge or truth." The Scientology religion holds that man is basically good, not evil. It teaches that it is their experiences that cause people to commit evil deeds. It is not their basic nature to do so. People can mistakenly solve their problems by thinking only of their own personal interests and overlook or ignore how their acts affect others. This creates interpersonal strife and problems. The Scientology religion also holds that individuals advance to the degree they preserve their spiritual integrity and values, and remain honest and decent — indeed, individuals deteriorate to the degree they abandon these qualities.

Some religions try to help humanity by solving people's problems for them. Scientology is different — it believes in increasing the ability and intelligence of the individual so he or she can improve his own life, overcome those factors that hold him down, and solve his or her own problems. What's more, once one has accomplished this he or she naturally starts to reach out to help his family, friends and society.

According to Scientology, the individual is not a body but a spirit. However there have been so many different concepts of the term soul through the ages that a new term was needed. The term chosen by Mr. Hubbard was "thetan" from the Greek letter theta, the traditional symbol for thought and life. The thetan is the person himself, not his body, his name, the physical universe or anything else. It is that which is aware of being aware; the identity that IS the individual.

One phenomenon of the spirit or thetan, researched by Mr. Hubbard, is exteriorization. Exteriorization is the ability of the thetan to leave the body and exist independent of the flesh. Exteriorized, the individual can see without the body's eyes, hear without the body's ears and feel without the body's hands. Man previously had little understanding of this detachment from his mind and body. With the act of exteriorization, attainable in Scientology, the individual gains the certainty that he is himself, an immortal spiritual being, and not a body.

Some basic Scientology concepts that assist a person to better understand life better are:

The Eight Dynamics of Existence: A "dynamic" is an urge, drive or impulse towards survival. With an understanding of these dynamics a person gains insight and can bring all aspects of his life into alignment. The first four dynamics were initially described by Mr. Hubbard in his texts on Dianetics in 1950. He expanded this to encompass four additional zones of existence the following year when he began research into the spiritual nature of man. These dynamic urges are best viewed as a series of concentric circles moving out from the first to the eighth:

The First Dynamic is the urge to survive as oneself.
The Second is the urge to survive through family and sex and the rearing of children.
The Third is the urge to survive in groups small and large — a company, a group of friends, a city, a nation.
The Fourth is the urge to survive as mankind.
The Fifth, Sixth, Seventh and Eighth are the urges to survive through other life forms such as animals and plants, the physical universe, the spiritual universe and Infinity or Supreme Being respectively.

Scientology teaches that by simply delineating these dynamics, it clarifies and brings order into existence. One can observe these dynamics in one's own life, note which need improvement and through the use of Scientology principles bring these factors into greater harmony.

Affinity, Reality and Communication: A concept of considerable importance in the Scientology religion is the principle of affinity, reality and communication. These three factors, expressed as a triangle, are enormously important in interpersonal relations. Affinity is the degree of liking or affection or lack of it for someone or something. Reality is agreement on the solid things of life, or concepts mutually held between individuals. Communication is the interchange of ideas, perceptions or objects between two or more people.

The concept is that when one corner of the triangle goes up, the other two corners also go up. Conversely, when one corner goes down, the other corners also go down. So when one establishes good communication with someone and agreement on some subject, affinity rises. Conversely, when there is a disagreement, affinity lowers as does communication.

These three factors — affinity, reality and communication — add up to understanding. When one really understands something, he or she is in good communication with it, has affinity for it and understands what it is about.

The ARC triangle has many uses in life. By gaining skill in raising the corners of this triangle one can increase understanding and improve relationships with anyone.

Is that text straight off their website Sojourner?
Are you defending them because you are one of them?

No matter how many "valid" similarities there are between Scientology & other religious organisations, they're easily one of the most dubious.
It really is quite remarkable though how a "movement" created by a dodgy science fiction writer a few decades ago has grown so strongly into a powerful worldwide cult.
Wouldn't have anything to do with the money now would it?

Crikey clarifier: Scientology

Tom Cruise is their most famous recruit, Wikipedia has banned them from editing its pages, and theyve even inspired their own episode of Law and Order. So who exactly are the Scientologists and why have they suddenly come up in the news? Crikey waded into the morass

What is Scientology? According to the ABC: Its a system of beliefs, teachings and rituals originally established as a secular philosophy by L. Ron Hubbard. His 1950 book Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health, provided the core principles of what would later become Scientology.

What do Scientologists believe? According to Time magazine: "Hubbard argued that unhappiness sprang from mental aberrations (or "engrams") caused by early traumas. Counselling sessions with the E-meter, he claimed, could knock out the engrams, cure blindness and even improve a person's intelligence and appearance. Hubbard kept adding steps, each more costly, for his followers to climb. In the 1960s the guru decreed that humans are made of clusters of spirits (or "thetans") who were banished to earth some 75 million years ago by a cruel galactic ruler named Xenu. Naturally, those thetans had to be audited.

How do they operate? Time magazine reports that the Church of Scientology runs consulting, education, healthcare, drug treatment and book publishing operations to generate income and build influence. In addition, Scientologists also subscribe to a number of controversial operational tactics:

Fair game: According to L. Ron Hubbard: Those who seek to damage the church may be deprived of property or injured by any means by any Scientologist without any discipline of the Scientologist. May be tricked, sued or lied to or destroyed.''

Aggressive litigation: According to L. Ron Hubbard: "Beware of attorneys who tell you not to sue ... the purpose of the suit is to harass and discourage rather than to win.

Why are we suddenly talking about it? This week South Australia Independent Senator Nick Xenophon tabled a speech in Federal Parliament calling for Scientology to be stripped of its tax exempt status. According to Xenophon: Scientology is not a religious organisation. It is a criminal organisation that hides behind its so-called religious beliefs ... I also believe the activities of this organisation should be scrutinised by parliament because Australian taxpayers are, in effect, supporting Scientology through its tax-exempt status.

How wealthy is the Church of Scientology? As The Australian notes: Its net worth is almost impossible to measure due partly to its tax-exempt status in the US and elsewhere and the labyrinthine structure it operates under but Scientology is worth billions and turns over hundreds of millions every year.

Why is the Church of Scientology exempt from tax? In Church of the New Faith v Commissioner of Payroll Tax (Vic) 1983, the High Court of Australia ruled that: Regardless of whether the members of the applicant are gullible or misled or whether the practices of Scientology are harmful or objectionable, the evidence, in our view, establishes that Scientology must, for relevant purposes, be accepted as a religion in Victoria. That does not, of course, mean either that the practices of the applicant or its rules are beyond the control of the law of the state or that the applicant or its members are beyond its taxing powers.

What makes it a religion, not a cult? Thats a good question. The Australian argues that: Scientology is a cult because it practices what it calls disconnection. Scientology members are directed to stop all contact with family members who are critical of its methods. This type of enforced alienation provides a textbook definition of a cult.

Are Scientologists litigious? Well, as The Australian very succinctly puts it: "So what is Scientology all about? Well, I cant quote from its texts as these are all under copyright and trademark protected. The organisation has been known to sue anybody who quotes from its texts or uses its emblems without permission."

In fact, the Church of Scientology has been spending plenty of time in the courts of late: SBS reported that: A French court convicted the Church of Scientology and one of its leaders of defrauding vulnerable members on Tuesday, but stopped short of banning the group's activities in France.

Crikey intern Michelle Loh

Worked with Scientologists while researching a project a few years ago.

Gotta say they gave us absolute gold!

That was probably because the project gave them the opportunity to get stuck into psychiatry (and in this case, it was fair enough).

The producer went over to the Church of Scientology Celebrity Centre International in LA (joint is like a palace) and met with high-ranking Thetans.

One bloke was a Theta 8, which is apparently pretty important. At the time he was higher-up than the couch-jumper.

Each to their own.

Has the media ignored Nick X lately?

Can't say I know any Scientologists, but how much worse can they be, than say a Catholic Priest, who has his way with children? That is a hell of a lot worse than siphoning a few bucks here and there in my opinion and as for brainwashing people, all religions do that to an extent. They are all as bad as each other.

Bum Crack wrote:Can't say I know any Scientologists, but how much worse can they be, than say a Catholic Priest, who has his way with children? That is a hell of a lot worse than siphoning a few bucks here and there in my opinion and as for brainwashing people, all religions do that to an extent. They are all as bad as each other.

I just think you would rarely get this sort of criticism of Scientology without a just cause.

When you refer to a Catholic priest and his pedophilia, if you look at it closely, the Bible, what the Catholic religion is base on, condemns the actions, therefore it is not the religion at fault, more so the sick, twisted individual.

As for Scientology, well, France has ousted them, now Nick Xenophon wants to oust them, why?

Not because one of its leaders touches children, but more so the whole religion is involved in alleged fraudulent activity.

From my understanding, if a Catholic chooses to leave the church because they feel it is not right for them, they do so with no pressure.

But if a Scientologist feels that the religion is not for them, there is quite a bit of a battle to get out of it once you're in.

Why?

Who knows.

Plenty of religions are driven by money, Catholicism probably the richest of them all, but going on a per capita basis, I would bet that Scientologists put a lot more money into their religion, whether forced or not, than Catholics.

Someone find me a poor Scientologist.

Interceptor wrote:Is that text straight off their website Sojourner?
Are you defending them because you are one of them?

No matter how many "valid" similarities there are between Scientology & other religious organisations, they're easily one of the most dubious.
It really is quite remarkable though how a "movement" created by a dodgy science fiction writer a few decades ago has grown so strongly into a powerful worldwide cult.
Wouldn't have anything to do with the money now would it?

Yes that text is directly from their website,

No I am not a member of the Church of Scientology, - I am a member of the Salvation Army though.

My point is that its quite easy to say that they are not a religion, yet its another matter to actually prove that in the form of primary documents for example. Irrespective of how "dubious" they may appear, dubious isnt enough to get them banned from Australia - As the Plymouth Brethren were however in the 1950's for similar reasons.

Isaac Asimov once quoted Ron Hubbard as saying, in the 1940s, that the way to make money was found a religion.
Ron's early westerns and space westerns were not a bad read, then he had his psychotic episode and was hospitalised for a time.
His hostility to Psychiatry emerged thereafter. I don't know what his experience was, but US hospitals in the 1950s were fairy primitive by modern standards.
I read some of Ron's "dekalogy" when he went back to writing overt science fiction in his later years.
His writing then rivalled the Book of Mormon as a demonstration of the dysfunctions typical of classical Schizophrenic thought disorder.

For those curious about the thought disorder:
http://sabryabdelfattah.tripod.com/docs/Thought.htm
http://askdrrobert.dr-robert.com/formal ... order.html

Psyber wrote:Isaac Asimov once quoted Ron Hubbard as saying, in the 1940s, that the way to make money was found a religion.
Ron's early westerns and space westerns were not a bad read, then he had his psychotic episode and was hospitalised for a time.
His hostility to Psychiatry emerged thereafter. I don't know what his experience was, but US hospitals in the 1950s were fairy primitive by modern standards.
I read some of Ron's "dekalogy" when he went back to writing overt science fiction in his later years.
His writing then rivalled the Book of Mormon as a demonstration of the dysfunctions typical of classical Schizophrenic thought disorder.

For those curious about the thought disorder:
http://sabryabdelfattah.tripod.com/docs/Thought.htm
http://askdrrobert.dr-robert.com/formal ... order.html

Hi Psyber,

I would be interested to see the Primary Document that records that Issac Asimov actually quoted Ron Hubbard as saying that! - This is from their offical website,


Did L. Ron Hubbard state that the way to make money was to start a religion?

No.

This is an unfounded rumor. One individual once claimed L. Ron Hubbard made such a comment during a lecture in 1948. The only two people who could be found who attended that very lecture in 1948 denied that Mr. Hubbard ever made this statement. And Mr. Hubbard himself certainly denied it.

Another famous writer from the same era who did make such a statement was George Orwell, who wrote to a friend in 1938 that “there might be a lot of cash in starting a new religion.” His letter was later published as part of a collection of letters which was circulated widely. It seems that Orwell’s comment has been misattributed to Mr. Hubbard. This was recognized by courts in Germany who enjoined those who had attributed such a statement to Mr. Hubbard from repeating it.

http://www.scientology.org/news-media/faq/pg066.html

This video of Tom Cruise was supposed to have been posted on Youtube and removed after threats of litagation, yet it can be found on this website and is interesting to have a second look at in relation to what he feels they actually believe as a group.

http://gawker.com/5002269/the-cruise-in ... o-suppress

It is in one of the anthologies of science fiction edited by Asimov that I have in the house - in one of the introductions to short stories.
I remember re-reading it in 2008 shortly before my wife died - I re-read a lot of books then as she could do little else but read when ill, and I sat with her and did the same..
The trouble is I have nearly every book Asimov wrote, and most of the anthologies he edited, and they were all packed to move to Adelaide.
It may take me a while to come across it again but when I do I'll try to remember to post the details and page number on this site.

Psyber wrote:It is in one of the anthologies of science fiction edited by Asimov that I have in the house - in one of the introductions to short stories.
I remember re-reading it in 2008 shortly before my wife died - I re-read a lot of books then as she could do little else but read when ill, and I sat with her and did the same..
The trouble is I have nearly every book Asimov wrote, and most of the anthologies he edited, and they were all packed to move to Adelaide.
It may take me a while to come across it again but when I do I'll try to remember to post the details and page number on this site.

You guys are making hard work of this for us "mere mortals". Any chance we can have something that is a bit easier on the mind?