Federal Government proposes a price on carbon.

[dedja]

LOL, this is classic ... Tony Windsor sinks the boot into Abbott.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-08-16/w ... tt/4203518

[scoob]

And the carbon tax does what to limit the effects global warming - **** all... waste of time and money

[Psyber]

This one is interesting - the current rises are put in longer term context.

[Psyber]

And we can go one better - or at least LONGER.

[fish]

Actually, fish, while I do now agree with you that there is an important human contribution on top of the natural Milankovitch Cycle, as I've posted here before after we debated it, the chart above is a bit dubious as proof, and it is a bit superficial to trot it out as proving anything. I know you have other more convincing data - just not as pretty.

Psyber I posted that chart - which incidentally does prove that the earth is currently warming - as a simple way to debunk Sky Pilots statement that global warming is nonsense.

[fish]

And the carbon tax does what to limit the effects global warming - **** all... waste of time and money

scoob the carbon tax is intended to reduce Australias carbon emissions not solve the global problem of climate change.

[Jimmy_041]

Did the governments in 1100BC, 250AD or 1300AD fix the problem by imposing a carbon tax?
I assume Hawkey fixed the problem in 1991 (and, no doubt, Keating later took credit for it)

[dedja]

no, but they all managed to stop the boats ...

[once_were_warriors]

no, but they all managed to stop the boats ...

I am concerned about the impact on the Sydney to Hobart Race in 2013 and the viability of Kangaroo Island when/if Tony gets in.

[fish]

Did the governments in 1100BC, 250AD or 1300AD fix the problem by imposing a carbon tax?

Jimmy todays governments would not be concerned about climate change if it was not primarily caused by human activity or if its impacts were not so dire.

[Q.]

Clearly the birth of christ has caused one of the warming periods.

[scoob]

Clearly the birth of christ has caused one of the warming periods.

Christ he has got a lot to answer for

[mick]

Its too late to do anything meaningful, other governments will move too slowly or do nothing. We in Australia should be developing strategies to adapt to the inevitable change, rather than putting the brakes on the economy in the form of a carbon tax.

[Psyber]

Actually, fish, while I do now agree with you that there is an important human contribution on top of the natural Milankovitch Cycle, as I've posted here before after we debated it, the chart above is a bit dubious as proof, and it is a bit superficial to trot it out as proving anything. I know you have other more convincing data - just not as pretty.

Psyber I posted that chart - which incidentally does prove that the earth is currently warming - as a simple way to debunk Sky Pilots statement that global warming is nonsense.

I'll concede that is valid.
But it is a potentially misleading chart that some have trotted out in the past as alleged proof of abnormal global warming.

Because of that, the point needs to be made, with its use, that it only proves the Earth has been warming since the end of the Little Ice Age, and that it does not prove any relationship with human activity or any form of warming that is unnatural or unusual. It would be specious to allow the impression to be given, even accidentally, that a chart from 1890 to now proves any extra effect from human activity.

I've conceded the point on recent CO2 level rises being at least partly due to human activity.
I agree that the potential effect of this to add to current global warming means we should take action to curb our CO2 emissions.

But it is not proven that they have yet induced abnormal warming as some assert vociferously.

Did the governments in 1100BC, 250AD or 1300AD fix the problem by imposing a carbon tax?

Jimmy todays governments would not be concerned about climate change if it was not primarily caused by human activity or if its impacts were not so dire.

I suspect governments will do whatever they think will be popular, win them votes, and keep them in office.

[Sky Pilot]

Actually, fish, while I do now agree with you that there is an important human contribution on top of the natural Milankovitch Cycle, as I've posted here before after we debated it, the chart above is a bit dubious as proof, and it is a bit superficial to trot it out as proving anything. I know you have other more convincing data - just not as pretty.

Psyber I posted that chart - which incidentally does prove that the earth is currently warming - as a simple way to debunk Sky Pilots statement that global warming is nonsense.[/quote]
fish it would need to be a very simple explanation to convince me the planet is in big trouble.

[fish]

I've conceded the point on recent CO2 level rises being at least partly due to human activity.

Psyber as you are aware the CSIRO and Bureau of Meteorology have concluded that the human component is the primary cause of the current warming:

"Rising CO2 emissions from the burning of fossil fuels has affected global temperature much more than natural climate variability during the past century".

State of the Climate 2012

[Jimmy_041]

You know, it wasn't that long ago people were predicting the death of the Murray due to the "effects of mankind"
My father in law said "what a load of bull$hit" - he'd seen the same conditions many times in his 80 years in Adelaide.
I had lunch with a mate on Friday and, amongst other things, we talked about the times we had to pull our caravans off our riverfront block on the Murray just north of Blanchetown because the river was flooding. Climate goes in cycles.

He raised one other point - the new desal plant; the decision to build made in the same amount of time as an 18 year olds first experience.
What % of SA's total electricity output is this thing going to pull when it's in full production?

[Psyber]

I've conceded the point on recent CO2 level rises being at least partly due to human activity.

Psyber as you are aware the CSIRO and Bureau of Meteorology have concluded that the human component is the primary cause of the current warming:
"Rising CO2 emissions from the burning of fossil fuels has affected global temperature much more than natural climate variability during the past century".
State of the Climate 2012

Yes I am aware they think that.
As I've said several times, the "past century" is a short sample in special conditions, dating from the end of the Little Ice Age.
All the records from that period are what you might predict in those post Little Ice Age conditions, and, so, don't prove much at all.

I've accepted that current CO2 levels are higher than previously recorded over the 420,000 years of ice core samples available, even the earlier recorded peak at about 325,000 years ago.
I accepted that after John Tibby, at Adelaide University, pointed me to references showing a way of reliably comparing more recent flask air samples directly with those ice cores.
Of course, that does not mean CO2 levels may not have been even higher further back than those ice cores go - when the planet as a whole was warmer than it is now, and ocean levels were higher.

As for trusting "authorities":
The Department of Human Services and their Medicare section thinks they know all about effective health care now...
And medical authorities all over the world in the 1980s were absolutely sure eating eggs increased your Cholesterol levels - now we know it does the reverse.
Who knows what we will "know" about that in another 30 years?

As I've said before, point me at the raw data allegedly proving the connection, and I'll look at it and draw my own conclusions.
I don't accept, blindly, anyone's "Bible", or the interpretation of it by their high priests/authorities...

[fish]

I don't accept, blindly, anyone's "Bible", or the interpretation of it by their high priests/authorities...

Psyber it is very disturbing that you think the worlds climatologists are somehow following a "Bible" or high priests.

[fish]

I've conceded the point on recent CO2 level rises being at least partly due to human activity.

Psyber as you are aware the CSIRO and Bureau of Meteorology have concluded that the human component is the primary cause of the current warming:
"Rising CO2 emissions from the burning of fossil fuels has affected global temperature much more than natural climate variability during the past century".
State of the Climate 2012

As for trusting "authorities":
The Department of Human Services and their Medicare section thinks they know all about effective health care now...
And medical authorities all over the world in the 1980s were absolutely sure eating eggs increased your Cholesterol levels - now we know it does the reverse.
Who knows what we will "know" about that in another 30 years?

Psyber can you please point out the errors in the CSIRO/Bureau of Meteorology analysis?