(Miscellaneous debris)

[mick]

The irony is that if the Howard government's policy still applied, those people would still be alive. How many have died that we don't know about?

[redandblack]

Mick, hundreds died on the SIEV X when Howard was in power.

This is an all-time low for a party that was once a Liberal Party.

[Sky Pilot]

For what is worth, IMO Tony wont take the Libs to the next election. I think they are self destructing all over again.
This will be a Joe v Malcolm period and Turnbull will win. Julie Bishop will be a casualty and then we will have the Turnbull/Hockey ticket and this will piss the Green/Labor coalition off no end.
If it turns the electorate on, swinging voters may turn to the Libs and the Green/Labor coalition could get boned at the ballot box.

[mick]

That was in 2001, the later hard line policy with regard to boats virtually stopped them. I am not one of the rabid "stop the boats people", but an undeniable consequence to stopping them results in no deaths at sea. If you are suggesting that the government knew about SIEV X and did nothing to save them then you are right that is shameful, but I believe the subsequent enquiry did not lay blame at anyone's feet. I think it is pure spin to take the comments of one idiot and suggest the whole party has a similar view with regard to the recent tragedy.

[redandblack]

Good post, mick, but the SIEV X, as you say, was in 2001 and the policy was changed later. ie: well after 5 years of the Howard era. Labor has been in for less than 4 years, so my argument still holds, I think.

It's not just Scott Morrison. It's not 'spin'. Abbott has given tacit approval and there are several other Libs and Nats spruiking the same line.

I give credit to the moderate Liberals who have had the decency to speak up about it.

A shameful day in Australian politics.

[redandblack]

Morrison climbs down.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011 ... 140131.htm

[Bat Pad]

Good post, mick, but the SIEV X, as you say, was in 2001 and the policy was changed later. ie: well after 5 years of the Howard era. Labor has been in for less than 4 years, so my argument still holds, I think.

It's not just Scott Morrison. It's not 'spin'. Abbott has given tacit approval and there are several other Libs and Nats spruiking the same line.

I give credit to the moderate Liberals who have had the decency to speak up about it.

A shameful day in Australian politics.

Labor being in power for 4 years is irrelevant, they changed Howards policy, so its not like they have had less time and therefore still have time to change things in a faster timeframe than the Howard government. They already did something, it just depends on whether you think it was the right thing. The SIEV X incident happened, the government did something, it had an effect. Government changes, they dont like what the Howard government did, they do something, it has an effect. They timeframes of those changes are irrelevant, its the quality of the changes that matters and should be argued over.

Do you have anything to back up that Abbott sanctioned (for lack of a better word) Morrison's comments? What other Liberal party members have said something similar?(not saying they have not, I just haven't heard it)

The Liberal party has always allowed its members to break ranks on their own accord (as a general rule), even if it does make them look stupid, it does not make every comment ushered by its MP's Party Policy.

[Mister Meaner]

I have had numerous dealings when I was working with Indigenous people who were absolutely desperate and distraught at being unable to attend the funeral of a relative interstate because of financial reasons.There was no-one to help them. A very small Centrelink allowance if they met the criteria. Heart-breaking for them.

$300,000 is what it is estimated to have cost the Australian taxpayer to fly relatives to these funerals in Sydney.
If we cark it overseas if our relatives cannot afford to repatriate our bodies, bad luck we stay there. The families of the drowned boat people were given the option of being flown home or being buried in Australia.
These illegal immigrants took a huge risk by putting their lives in the hands of people smugglers and met a sad and tragic fate.

But we all deserve to be able to expect the same treatment- Julia Gillard would not pay-up for Australian citizens to be flown interstate for the burial of a relative and put into a motel for the night.
The taxpayer paid for the funerals.
I believe that is the point being made by Scott Morrison and like it or not, it resonates very strongly with a lot of Austrlaian taxpayers.

[Sky Pilot]

Good post, mick, but the SIEV X, as you say, was in 2001 and the policy was changed later. ie: well after 5 years of the Howard era. Labor has been in for less than 4 years, so my argument still holds, I think.

It's not just Scott Morrison. It's not 'spin'. Abbott has given tacit approval and there are several other Libs and Nats spruiking the same line.

I give credit to the moderate Liberals who have had the decency to speak up about it.

A shameful day in Australian politics.

Labor being in power for 4 years is irrelevant, they changed Howards policy, so its not like they have had less time and therefore still have time to change things in a faster timeframe than the Howard government. They already did something, it just depends on whether you think it was the right thing. The SIEV X incident happened, the government did something, it had an effect. Government changes, they dont like what the Howard government did, they do something, it has an effect. They timeframes of those changes are irrelevant, its the quality of the changes that matters and should be argued over.

Do you have anything to back up that Abbott sanctioned (for lack of a better word) Morrison's comments? What other Liberal party members have said something similar?(not saying they have not, I just haven't heard it)

The Liberal party has always allowed its members to break ranks on their own accord (as a general rule), even if it does make them look stupid, it does not make every comment ushered by its MP's Party Policy.

I think you could be onto something BP

[Gingernuts]

like it or not, it resonates very strongly with a lot of Austrlaian taxpayers.

A dead child deserves a proper burial. That's the only thing that resonates with me.

So much money taxpayer money is wasted on ridiculous govt initiatives, in comparison buring these children is not even close to being one of them.

[redandblack]

Firstly, thank you, Gingernuts.

MM, Abbott is so weak he just went along with Morrison, as per..

http://www.smh.com.au/national/oppositi ... 1avla.html

Secondly, I think I read that Australian citizens in similar circumstances are eligible for a $5000 assistance. I'll research it.

Thirdly, if this resonates with some Australian people, then God help us.

Fourthly, Morrison himself has said he was wrong and insensitive. Is this the favourite word of the Opposition - 'spin' - or is he genuine.

Whatever our differences, there are some things that should be above political point scoring. The funerals of men, women and children drowned on the other side of their world is one of them.

If you're worried about costs, why do you pick on this case?. I look forward to your comments about Barnaby Joyce writing off a $90,000 vehicle recently.

How mean-minded and petty can you get?

There was a time when the Liberal Party stood for some decent principles, not muck-raking, gutter stuff like this.

[Darth Vader]

For what is worth, IMO Tony wont take the Libs to the next election. I think they are self destructing all over again.
This will be a Joe v Malcolm period and Turnbull will win. Julie Bishop will be a casualty and then we will have the Turnbull/Hockey ticket and this will piss the Green/Labor coalition off no end.
If it turns the electorate on, swinging voters may turn to the Libs and the Green/Labor coalition could get boned at the ballot box.

Mmmm...I think you are onto something SP

[Mister Meaner]

like it or not, it resonates very strongly with a lot of Austrlaian taxpayers.

A dead child deserves a proper burial. That's the only thing that resonates with me.

So much money taxpayer money is wasted on ridiculous govt initiatives, in comparison buring these children is not even close to being one of them.

No-one would dispute that, but would an Australian citizen receive the same treatment? we both know the answer to that- if the parents or extended family of an Australian child cannot afford to pay for a funeral for their child a philanthropic organisation such as UnitingCare may help, but not the Government.
Do we hear people crying out about the injustice of a child having a proper burial in those instances- I don't think so.
I am not saying the Government should not have done it, but I am saying I don't think our own citizens are afforded such treatment.
And the cost is the tip of the iceberg in relation to the money being spent housing and processing boat people.
Tragedies such as the Christmas Island boat sinking are the human cost of going soft on people smugglers. While Australia is seen as an easy target, people smugglers will continue to get rich on human lives and others' misery, no matter the risk.

[Darth Vader]

like it or not, it resonates very strongly with a lot of Austrlaian taxpayers.

A dead child deserves a proper burial. That's the only thing that resonates with me.

So much money taxpayer money is wasted on ridiculous govt initiatives, in comparison buring these children is not even close to being one of them.

No-one would dispute that, but would an Australian citizen receive the same treatment? we both know the answer to that- if the parents or extended family of an Australian child cannot afford to pay for a funeral for their child a philanthropic organisation such as UnitingCare may help, but not the Government.
Do we hear people crying out about the injustice of a child having a proper burial in those instances- I don't think so.
I am not saying the Government should not have done it, but I am saying I don't think our own citizens are afforded such treatment.
And the cost is the tip of the iceberg in relation to the money being spent housing and processing boat people.
Tragedies such as the Christmas Island boat sinking are the human cost of going soft on people smugglers. While Australia is seen as an easy target, people smugglers will continue to get rich on human lives and others' misery, no matter the risk.

Yeah and we taxpayers get stuck with the bill. Why couldn't these poor souls have been buried in Christmas Island? Ever since the Greens took over the labor party we have gone down hill.

[Gingernuts]

like it or not, it resonates very strongly with a lot of Austrlaian taxpayers.

A dead child deserves a proper burial. That's the only thing that resonates with me.

So much money taxpayer money is wasted on ridiculous govt initiatives, in comparison buring these children is not even close to being one of them.

No-one would dispute that, but would an Australian citizen receive the same treatment? we both know the answer to that- if the parents or extended family of an Australian child cannot afford to pay for a funeral for their child a philanthropic organisation such as UnitingCare may help, but not the Government.
Do we hear people crying out about the injustice of a child having a proper burial in those instances- I don't think so.
I am not saying the Government should not have done it, but I am saying I don't think our own citizens are afforded such treatment.
And the cost is the tip of the iceberg in relation to the money being spent housing and processing boat people.
Tragedies such as the Christmas Island boat sinking are the human cost of going soft on people smugglers. While Australia is seen as an easy target, people smugglers will continue to get rich on human lives and others' misery, no matter the risk.

I see your points MM, and to a degree I agree with them. Some of these questions should be asked - but I still think to politicise this issue at this time is wrong. Keep these discussions in the party room and let these people grieve their losses.

[Bat Pad]

R&B in that link there is not one quote attributed to Abbott, the SMH simply states it is his position without any corroborating quotes, releases etc. Do you have anything else? The SMH is a left leaning publication so before judging his conduct I need to know if it is/was his position. I'm sure you wouldn't take The Australian's word for it either.

[Mister Meaner]

like it or not, it resonates very strongly with a lot of Austrlaian taxpayers.

A dead child deserves a proper burial. That's the only thing that resonates with me.

So much money taxpayer money is wasted on ridiculous govt initiatives, in comparison buring these children is not even close to being one of them.

No-one would dispute that, but would an Australian citizen receive the same treatment? we both know the answer to that- if the parents or extended family of an Australian child cannot afford to pay for a funeral for their child a philanthropic organisation such as UnitingCare may help, but not the Government.
Do we hear people crying out about the injustice of a child having a proper burial in those instances- I don't think so.
I am not saying the Government should not have done it, but I am saying I don't think our own citizens are afforded such treatment.
And the cost is the tip of the iceberg in relation to the money being spent housing and processing boat people.
Tragedies such as the Christmas Island boat sinking are the human cost of going soft on people smugglers. While Australia is seen as an easy target, people smugglers will continue to get rich on human lives and others' misery, no matter the risk.

I see your points MM, and to a degree I agree with them. Some of these questions should be asked - but I still think to politicise this issue at this time is wrong. Keep these discussions in the party room and let these people grieve their losses.

I totally agree- but I have had some dealings with Scott Morrison and he is a genuine, caring human being. Bad timing I accept, but I do not think we should demonise him for expressing a disparity that needs to be discussed.

[Darth Vader]

R&B in that link there is not one quote attributed to Abbott, the SMH simply states it is his position without any corroborating quotes, releases etc. Do you have anything else? The SMH is a left leaning publication so before judging his conduct I need to know if it is/was his position. I'm sure you wouldn't take The Australian's word for it either.

gee if only we could rely on unbiased reporting in our daily newspapers

[Q.]

Given that the funeral arrangements were equally a matter of good diplomacy than of a humane decision, then arguments suggesting group x should be treated the same as group y are even more non-sensical.

[Leaping Lindner]

My taxes go towards the education system. My taxes go towards parental leave. **** that!!! I don't have any kids and won't be having any. You want kids!! Pay for their education and your time off work yourself you god damn bludgers....
Of course I don't think that. But it's one reason whenever the phrase "taxpayers dollars" is dragged out by pollies it gives me the flying shirts.