How did the SANFL retain more fans than the WAFL?

[spell_check]

Loyal WAFL fans would often ask this. SANFL supporters are proud to state they are part of the highest supported League outside the AFL. Why did it happen? Well, the first thing I can do here is produce the figures.
The first graph shows the comparison for every year between and including 1967 and 2010 for the minor round average crowds:

*There are 23 matches missing from 1967; 27 from 1973; 11 from 1977 and 1 from 1981
*This excludes the curtain raiser matches for the SANFL (or a % figure like the SANFL has done this year). I would not include them myself, anyway.

To get a true comparison between the drop off, we must line up the SANFL and its first year with the Crows, and the WAFL with the Eagles:

*1991 is 1987 for WAFL; 1992 is 1988; 1993 is 1989; 1994 is 1990; 1995 is 1991; 1996 is 1992.

There is actually a very feasible correlation here. When the Crows made the finals for the first time in 1993, the minor round crowd fell further than it did in 1992. At the comparative stage for the WAFL had a larger crowd, even though the Eagles made the finals for the first time in 1989. However, in 1994, the Crows dropped down the ladder; the Eagles continued on the way up to the flag in 1992. The Crows were still well down in the rankings in 1996 - the SANFL crowds were still better or on a par with 1993 and the WAFL crowds were now averaging 700 less a match in 1992.

Thus, using the minor round crowds as a guide, the first nail in the coffin for the WAFL was the continued success of the West Coast Eagles.

Now, to line up the two seasons prior to the introduction of the Power and the Dockers:

*This time, 1995 is 1993 for the WAFL; 1996 is 1994; 1997 is 1995 (Power and Dockers debut years) and so on.

Fremantle appears to have made a bigger impact on crowds than Port did - the second big factor in why the WAFL crowds are down further than the SANFL. Also, it's very surprising to see an almost exact rise and fall in the crowds - 1998 and 1996 were much improved for the two leagues; the lowest point was 2005 and 2003; there has been an upward trend since then.

Anyone with a WAFL background can elaborate further on this; I can only start the topic by using my "expertise" - numbers. For another view on this data, here is the average in table form:

Code: Select all

Year   WAFL   SANFL
1967   9602   9161
1968   8955   8609
1969   9298   8501
1970   9652   8232
1971   9184   8159
1972   8679   9371
1973   9191   8989
1974   9025   8745
1975   9279   7666
1976   8821   7535
1977   8532   8001
1978   9345   7741
1979   9465   7796
1980   9339   8186
1981   8502   8131
1982   8179   7341
1983   8304   7257
1984   8009   6570
1985   7557   7428
1986   7420   6992
1987   3961   6902
1988   3911   7284
1989   4040   6537
1990   3418   6536
1991   3267   4430
1992   3001   4167
1993   3451   3776
1994   2879   3955
1995   1922   4172
1996   2163   3747
1997   2052   3219
1998   1812   3689
1999   1742   3195
2000   1825   2966
2001   1920   3106
2002   1749   3101
2003   1671   2890
2004   1820   2812
2005   1834   2743
2006   1895   2839
2007   1943   2867
2008   2006   3065
2009   2304   2925
2010   2211   3060

[FlyingHigh]

Interesting graphs Spelly.
Can certainly see the impact of 8 v 10 teams up to the mid 80's on crowds per game, but with similar amounts going to the footy each week.

Think there are numerous factors in play.
Western Australia, being so isolated, always seem to have more of a complex about proving themselves against the might of the east coast, including more players going the VFL in the 60's and 70's. This also lead to the whole state jumping on the Eagles from the top down, whereas the SANFL hierarchy learned from the WA example and tried harder to retain the SANFL as a leading competition. It seems the extent of the immediate drop-off in the WAFL caught their administrators by surprise.
Also, SA had the Port factor, whose supporters obviously didn't take to the Crows, and this left a certain amount of passion in the SANFL.
Then when Port joined, it only took away those supporters, rather than Freo, with whom two clubs and a whole distinct strong geographic area could identify with.
Just my take.

[Pseudo]

Interesting graphs Spelly.

Indeed. Good work spelly

Can certainly see the impact of 8 v 10 teams up to the mid 80's on crowds per game, but with similar amounts going to the footy each week.

The drop off in SANFL when the Crows were introduced would have been exacerbated by the introduction of the bye, 'coz 1/9 of the support base had no game to attend in any given week.

Also, SA had the Port factor, whose supporters obviously didn't take to the Crows, and this left a certain amount of passion in the SANFL.

Plenty of Port fans went over to the Crows in the early years (from personal observation; I ain't got no figures to support this). Many of 'em jumped back when Port started ramping up its second AFL bid. I wonder how much of the mid-nineties bump in the trend of the curve could be attributed to this?

Then when Port joined, it only took away those supporters, rather than Freo, with whom two clubs and a whole distinct strong geographic area could identify with.

Fair point. It would interest me to see the plot of crowd figures for PAM games and the plot of crowd figures for non-PAM games separately. Similarly, plots of WAFL crowd figures for East & South Freo games, and non-Freo games.

[spell_check]

Here they are, they exclude double header matches:




You can see just how many Port supporters there are (or were) - the average match involving Port was just 1.05 times the matches not involving Port last year. This is down from 1.62 from Ports' last flag year of 1999!

It also goes to show that Fremantle attracted just as many fans from the other six clubs than it did from the Sharks and Bulldogs.

[Pseudo]

Thanks spelly, good work again!

[Hondo]

I saw a documentary on the birth of the Eagles and it claimed that in the 1980s the WAFL was was intentionally developing players to sell off to the VFL, using the transfer fees to keep the WAFL afloat. However this money train had run its course for whatever reason and by 1987 the WAFL couldn't join the AFL quick enough. There was a tip off given to the VFL teams beforehard leading to a last minute raid on WAFL players before the West Coast could form their first list.

what's my point? I wonder if the WAFL fans had got so disheartened with their WAFL comp being drained of players to the VFL that they jumped onto the Eagles almost in disgust at the state the WAFL had let their competition get into. It seems to me that the SANFL took much better care of its competition, and owned its own stadium unlike the WAFL, so that SANFL fans were more inclined to stay on board.

This is just a theory from not a lot of in-depth knowledge of the WAFL history. I am sure I am using too broad a brush strokes.

From the Perth people I speak to regulary about Footy I don't get the same sense of tension between the WAFL and the AFL as is so prevalent over here. It's like football to them is the Eagles and the Dockers. There seems to be more parocialism about the AFL teams over there than there is about the WAFL. I'd be interested in Barto's opinion.

[FlyingHigh]

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[FlyingHigh]

Interesting graphs Spelly.

Indeed. Good work spelly

Can certainly see the impact of 8 v 10 teams up to the mid 80's on crowds per game, but with similar amounts going to the footy each week.

The drop off in SANFL when the Crows were introduced would have been exacerbated by the introduction of the bye, 'coz 1/9 of the support base had no game to attend in any given week.

Guess I was trying to compare the WAFL with 4 games and SANFL with 5, and the WAFL averages were higher

[FlyingHigh]

Also, SA had the Port factor, whose supporters obviously didn't take to the Crows, and this left a certain amount of passion in the SANFL.

Plenty of Port fans went over to the Crows in the early years (from personal observation; I ain't got no figures to support this). Many of 'em jumped back when Port started ramping up its second AFL bid. I wonder how much of the mid-nineties bump in the trend of the curve could be attributed to this?
.

Yeah, I knew quite a few taht did too, but they would ahve have been in the minority compared to those that hated the Crows

[Sojourner]

Interesting to see the WAFL trending upwards in recent years! - maybe a second question could be what are they doing that is bringing the fans back or new fans in?

[mighty_tiger_79]

my experience in the west was that a lot of wafl games on sat arvos would finish and an afl game at subi would start not long after, so there wasnt a real chance to go from the wafl to afl, perhaps this had an effect on crowds??

[spell_check]

Interesting graphs Spelly.

Indeed. Good work spelly

Can certainly see the impact of 8 v 10 teams up to the mid 80's on crowds per game, but with similar amounts going to the footy each week.

The drop off in SANFL when the Crows were introduced would have been exacerbated by the introduction of the bye, 'coz 1/9 of the support base had no game to attend in any given week.

Guess I was trying to compare the WAFL with 4 games and SANFL with 5, and the WAFL averages were higher

That's it, the WAFL had 8 clubs to split the prospective supporters over, whereas the SANFL had 10.

Interesting to see the WAFL trending upwards in recent years! - maybe a second question could be what are they doing that is bringing the fans back or new fans in?

One thing I suspect would help is that Perth is growing faster population wise than Adelaide. And possibly just as many people are being put off by the glamour of the AFL, they want a down to earth "how it was" competition.

[spell_check]

This is the average number per round between 1967 and 1990; with the exclusion of the WAFL rounds that had a figure(s) missing. 1973 had only one round with complete figures, so I've excluded that from this table.

[spell_check]

Also, I can give the same figures for 1962-1964, because there are only two figures missing from WAFL data in that time. So, 1964 is over 20 rounds there (instead of 21)

Year: WAFL SANFL
1962: 32815 37279
1963: 34112 35892
1964: 37395 37869

[Hondo]

One thing I suspect would help is that Perth is growing faster population wise than Adelaide. And possibly just as many people are being put off by the glamour of the AFL, they want a down to earth "how it was" competition.

Is that what the WAFL is though? A time machine from 1985? I'm not sure. I think Dockers and Eagles crowds suggest it's not people switching away from the AFL. It's a romantic notion but I am not sure how real the theory is. I think in WA at least it's the population increase driving the attendance increase.

[spell_check]

One thing I suspect would help is that Perth is growing faster population wise than Adelaide. And possibly just as many people are being put off by the glamour of the AFL, they want a down to earth "how it was" competition.

Is that what the WAFL is though? A time machine from 1985? I'm not sure. I think Dockers and Eagles crowds suggest it's not people switching away from the AFL. It's a romantic notion but I am not sure how real the theory is. I think in WA at least it's the population increase driving the attendance increase.

Dunno, just throwing a couple of things out there. Certainly more plausible that the increase in population is causing the attendance to rise.

[Sojourner]

Not sure how this can be done, but it could be worth considering that the population of SA has only in recent years been less than in WA, for several seasons listed I would suggest that the population would be less in WA. Hence the figure per capita may make an interesting comparision!

[WAFL Follower]

ttendances have improved in the WAFL for a number of reasons

1. The standard has improved significantly through a higher salary cap, more professional coaching and more exAFL players returning. For Claremont to beat a VFL and SANFL team in the Foxtel Cup simply would not have happened 5 years ago.
2. It got a real boost in 2009, partly due to Wet Toast and Dorkers having ordinary seasons and the injection of some high profile players like Peter Bell and Jeff Farmer. The amount of well paid work in Perth has made it easier to attract interstaters
3. Clubs have worked hard to improve 'the match day experience' - bouncy castles, bars etc
4. Foundation Day has become a very big day (11,000 at the Freo Derby last year) ,ANZAC day games and Good Friday (4,500 at the first Good Friday game)

There is much still to be done:
1. Supporters have deserted the most successful club East Freo - initially due to Wet Toast (the original team had a very strong EF representation), the creation of Freo (natural progression) and the suburb itself changing from working class to upper class over time.
2. Peel is a disaster - poorly set up and have never been close to successful - in fact the average attendance of games not involving Peel is around 2,500 and 2,200 if their crowds are included. They play in Mandurah which is an hour from Perth - very few are prepared to travel that far to watch their team play poor opposition.
3. Still too many games attendances between 1500 - 2000. Games really need at least 2500 to have some atmosphere.
3.

[Benchwarmer]

Hondo

The WAFL was broke into the 1980s and clubs were being kept alive primarily on transfer fees. The money train had run its course because by 1985, six VFL clubs were technically (or actually) trading insolvently.

The SANFL took much better care of its competition and they also had (quite rightly) a deep suspicion for all ideas Victorian. Had WA stuck fat with SA for a couple more years, we probably would have had a 12 team national competition with six Victorian sides, Sydney, two WA sides, two SA sides and maybe a Tassie team to round out the 12 - the excluded VFL clubs would have ended up in the VFA.

There is a lot of love for WAFL footy, but it is unfortunately people saying that East freo or Claremont are my second side and follow them via the media.

I agree with WAFL follower that a more professional WAFL has helped with the quality of play and that crowds usually correlate with bad performances by the Chardonnay Suckers and the Bogans.

In recent seasons, we have also had some bad scheduling of WAFL matches which affect crowds.