SA Footy

Hi Spelly,

Just wondering if you can crunch any data on how many Wooden Spoons each SANFL club has won and who has won the spoon on the most occassions? Is it possible to go back to 1876 onwards in records for the data?

Cheers!

This is from 1897 onwards, it's all I have got:
Central 2
Glenelg 18
North 5
Norwood 6
Port 1
South 27
Sturt 18
Torrens 5
West 17
Woodville 9

From the SANFL website

Port Adelaide
Wooden Spoons: 3 – 1886, 1896, 1900

spell_check wrote:This is from 1897 onwards, it's all I have got:
Central 2
Glenelg 18
North 5
Norwood 6
Port 1
South 27
Sturt 18
Torrens 5
West 17
Woodville 9

Given Torrens lack of premiership success (only 4 flags), the fact that they only finished bottom 5 times is surprising. Two of these were in a row in 1975 and 1976 and they came bottom again in 1986.

North never got the wooden spoon between 1912 and 1978 which is a good record too and 5 overall is very good, but of course Port's record of 1900 to now is incredible. As a North supporter I hope that we aren't heading for a sixth this year. Allan and Alleway would want to stay sound.

robranisgod wrote:

spell_check wrote:This is from 1897 onwards, it's all I have got:
Central 2
Glenelg 18
North 5
Norwood 6
Port 1
South 27
Sturt 18
Torrens 5
West 17
Woodville 9

Given Torrens lack of premiership success (only 4 flags), the fact that they only finished bottom 5 times is surprising. Two of these were in a row in 1975 and 1976 and they came bottom again in 1986.
North never got the wooden spoon between 1912 and 1978 which is a good record too and 5 overall is very good, but of course Port's record of 1900 to now is incredible. As a North supporter I hope that we aren't heading for a sixth this year. Allan and Alleway would want to stay sound.

The same could be said about Central as well, especially considering their first year they got the wooden spoon.

whufc wrote:

robranisgod wrote:

spell_check wrote:This is from 1897 onwards, it's all I have got:
Central 2
Glenelg 18
North 5
Norwood 6
Port 1
South 27
Sturt 18
Torrens 5
West 17
Woodville 9

Given Torrens lack of premiership success (only 4 flags), the fact that they only finished bottom 5 times is surprising. Two of these were in a row in 1975 and 1976 and they came bottom again in 1986.
North never got the wooden spoon between 1912 and 1978 which is a good record too and 5 overall is very good, but of course Port's record of 1900 to now is incredible. As a North supporter I hope that we aren't heading for a sixth this year. Allan and Alleway would want to stay sound.

The same could be said about Central as well, especially considering their first year they got the wooden spoon.

Central have had a fair bit of success as well. Are you referring more to the fact that they only won 2 wooden spoons in their first 36 years of existence, yet didn't win a flag in that time.

I guess for much of that time Central were competitive whereas my memory of Torrens is that they were mainly uncompetitive. For example between 1981 and 1985 they came ninth every year.

whufc wrote:

robranisgod wrote:

spell_check wrote:This is from 1897 onwards, it's all I have got:
Central 2
Glenelg 18
North 5
Norwood 6
Port 1
South 27
Sturt 18
Torrens 5
West 17
Woodville 9

Given Torrens lack of premiership success (only 4 flags), the fact that they only finished bottom 5 times is surprising. Two of these were in a row in 1975 and 1976 and they came bottom again in 1986.
North never got the wooden spoon between 1912 and 1978 which is a good record too and 5 overall is very good, but of course Port's record of 1900 to now is incredible. As a North supporter I hope that we aren't heading for a sixth this year. Allan and Alleway would want to stay sound.

The same could be said about Central as well, especially considering their first year they got the wooden spoon.

Before Woodville entered the competition, West Torrens only had two wooden spoons out of 61 seasons. In fact, between 1897 and 1963, this was the table at the time:

Port 1
North 2
Torrens 2
Norwood 5
West 9
Sturt 10
Glenelg 13
South 20

spell_check wrote:

whufc wrote:

robranisgod wrote:

spell_check wrote:This is from 1897 onwards, it's all I have got:
Central 2
Glenelg 18
North 5
Norwood 6
Port 1
South 27
Sturt 18
Torrens 5
West 17
Woodville 9

Given Torrens lack of premiership success (only 4 flags), the fact that they only finished bottom 5 times is surprising. Two of these were in a row in 1975 and 1976 and they came bottom again in 1986.
North never got the wooden spoon between 1912 and 1978 which is a good record too and 5 overall is very good, but of course Port's record of 1900 to now is incredible. As a North supporter I hope that we aren't heading for a sixth this year. Allan and Alleway would want to stay sound.

The same could be said about Central as well, especially considering their first year they got the wooden spoon.

Before Woodville entered the competition, West Torrens only had two wooden spoons out of 61 seasons. In fact, between 1897 and 1963, this was the table at the time:

Port 1
North 2
Torrens 2
Norwood 5
West 9
Sturt 10
Glenelg 13
South 20

And North only had two. Of course Torrens were the most hindered by Woodville coming in, but North certainly suffered losing Kilburn and adjacent areas to Woodville, areas which had always been North Adelaide heartland.

robranisgod wrote:I guess for much of that time Central were competitive whereas my memory of Torrens is that they were mainly uncompetitive. For example between 1981 and 1985 they came ninth every year.

I remember going to a Port/Torrens game in '86 (I think it was 86, could have been '87) at Footy Park. Torrens smashed Port that day, and while Port weren't as strong that year as other years in the 80's, it was surprising how much the Magpies got beaten by that day. Without doing any research at all, I'm assuming in the 1985 off season, they picked up a few players, and perhaps there was the development of such players as Fotia and Chris Lindsay and maybe a few others.

Anyone got info on where Torrens finished the next couple of years after 1985?

GWW wrote:

robranisgod wrote:I guess for much of that time Central were competitive whereas my memory of Torrens is that they were mainly uncompetitive. For example between 1981 and 1985 they came ninth every year.

I remember going to a Port/Torrens game in '86 (I think it was 86, could have been '87) at Footy Park. Torrens smashed Port that day, and while Port weren't as strong that year as other years in the 80's, it was surprising how much the Magpies got beaten by that day. Without doing any research at all, I'm assuming in the 1985 off season, they picked up a few players, and perhaps there was the development of such players as Fotia and Chris Lindsay and maybe a few others.

Anyone got info on where Torrens finished the next couple of years after 1985?

10th and 6th

That would have been 1985, when Torrens won with 24.23 to Port 10.16. Torrens beat Port at Alberton in 1986, the only time after 1969.

spell_check wrote:This is from 1897 onwards, it's all I have got:
Central 2
Glenelg 18
North 5
Norwood 6
Port 1
South 27
Sturt 18
Torrens 5
West 17
Woodville 9

To complete your records then:

1877 - Bankers
1878 & 1879 - Kensington
1880 - Adelaide
1881 - Adelaide-Kensington
1882 - Royal Park
1883 & 1884 - North
1885 - Adelaide
1886 - Port
1887 - West
1888 & 1889 - Medindie
1890 - Gawler
1891, 92 & 93 - Adelaide
1894 - North
1895 - Port Natives
1896 - Port

sapaul wrote:

spell_check wrote:This is from 1897 onwards, it's all I have got:
Central 2
Glenelg 18
North 5
Norwood 6
Port 1
South 27
Sturt 18
Torrens 5
West 17
Woodville 9

To complete your records then:

1877 - Bankers
1878 & 1879 - Kensington
1880 - Adelaide
1881 - Adelaide-Kensington
1882 - Royal Park
1883 & 1884 - North
1885 - Adelaide
1886 - Port
1887 - West
1888 & 1889 - Medindie
1890 - Gawler
1891, 92 & 93 - Adelaide
1894 - North
1895 - Port Natives
1896 - Port

Beware though that the North mentioned in 1883 and 1884 are no relation to North Adelaide football club. Medindie have closer links to the current day North Adelaide.

Port Natives were the forerunner of West Torrens. In fact I think that they were the same team but changed names

WT started in 1897
The Natives disbanded at around that time, several players ended up at WT
Those players were residents of the WT area and were allowed to play for WT

According to Best of Both Worlds, Port Natives played (but not in what is now known as the SANFL) until 1894, then most of their players joined the league's new team Natives in 1895, which with the introduction of electorate football and everything else which changed footy into something recognizable in 1897, changed its name to West Torrens.

Torrens were the epitome of consistency and despite winning just four flags (and only two minor premierships), between 1907 and 1963 (before Woodville was rudely foisted upon them), they won just under 52% of their matches (just under 53% if you include a draw as half a win), a percentage exceeded at that time by only Port and Norwood.

baggy8 wrote:According to Best of Both Worlds, Port Natives played (but not in what is now known as the SANFL) until 1894, then most of their players joined the league's new team Natives in 1895, which with the introduction of electorate football and everything else which changed footy into something recognizable in 1897, changed its name to West Torrens.

Torrens were the epitome of consistency and despite winning just four flags (and only two minor premierships), between 1907 and 1963 (before Woodville was rudely foisted upon them), they won just under 52% of their matches (just under 53% if you include a draw as half a win), a percentage exceeded at that time by only Port and Norwood.

As a matter of interest what was North's win loss ratio at that stage. I remember checking a few years ago now, probably around 1990 and I was surprised at that stage to see that Port, Norwood and North were the only 3 teams with a better than 50% average. Woodville/West Torrens would have a very good win/loss ratio and Centrals because of the last 11 years would now also be positive.

robranisgod wrote:As a matter of interest what was North's win loss ratio at that stage. I remember checking a few years ago now, probably around 1990 and I was surprised at that stage to see that Port, Norwood and North were the only 3 teams with a better than 50% average. Woodville/West Torrens would have a very good win/loss ratio and Centrals because of the last 11 years would now also be positive.

At the end of 1963, North was only just behind Torrens with 51.5% wins or 52.2% incl. 1/2 of draws. I think you might have last checked more recently than that, perhaps in the mid 90s because in 1990 both North and Sturt were well above 50% and it was in that year that North passed Sturt. I'm sure the Double Blues were considerably below 50% after the eight wooden spoons.

Currently the winning percentage order is Port, Eagles, Norwood, Centrals, North and Sturt (although some may say Sturt's ahead of North) all over 50%. By my calculations (subject to scrutiny) the overall closeness between North and Sturt is staggering. According to me as of today, North have played 1891 games for 958 wins, 912 losses and 21 draws. Sturt have played 1897 games for 962 wins, 918 losses and 17 draws. If you just count wins Sturt are ahead by 50.71% to 50.66%, but if you allow half a win for a draw (as I think you should), then North are ahead by 51.22% to 51.16%. It's that close that if they both keep on losing until they play each other (a distinct possibility) and Sturt win, the Double Blues would then be ahead of North whichever way you look at it.

baggy8 wrote:

robranisgod wrote:As a matter of interest what was North's win loss ratio at that stage. I remember checking a few years ago now, probably around 1990 and I was surprised at that stage to see that Port, Norwood and North were the only 3 teams with a better than 50% average. Woodville/West Torrens would have a very good win/loss ratio and Centrals because of the last 11 years would now also be positive.

At the end of 1963, North was only just behind Torrens with 51.5% wins or 52.2% incl. 1/2 of draws. I think you might have last checked more recently than that, perhaps in the mid 90s because in 1990 both North and Sturt were well above 50% and it was in that year that North passed Sturt. I'm sure the Double Blues were considerably below 50% after the eight wooden spoons.

Currently the winning percentage order is Port, Eagles, Norwood, Centrals, North and Sturt (although some may say Sturt's ahead of North) all over 50%. By my calculations (subject to scrutiny) the overall closeness between North and Sturt is staggering. According to me as of today, North have played 1891 games for 958 wins, 912 losses and 21 draws. Sturt have played 1897 games for 962 wins, 918 losses and 17 draws. If you just count wins Sturt are ahead by 50.71% to 50.66%, but if you allow half a win for a draw (as I think you should), then North are ahead by 51.22% to 51.16%. It's that close that if they both keep on losing until they play each other (a distinct possibility) and Sturt win, the Double Blues would then be ahead of North whichever way you look at it.

And there record against each other is almost 50:50 as well.

robranisgod wrote:

baggy8 wrote:

robranisgod wrote:As a matter of interest what was North's win loss ratio at that stage. I remember checking a few years ago now, probably around 1990 and I was surprised at that stage to see that Port, Norwood and North were the only 3 teams with a better than 50% average. Woodville/West Torrens would have a very good win/loss ratio and Centrals because of the last 11 years would now also be positive.

At the end of 1963, North was only just behind Torrens with 51.5% wins or 52.2% incl. 1/2 of draws. I think you might have last checked more recently than that, perhaps in the mid 90s because in 1990 both North and Sturt were well above 50% and it was in that year that North passed Sturt. I'm sure the Double Blues were considerably below 50% after the eight wooden spoons.

Currently the winning percentage order is Port, Eagles, Norwood, Centrals, North and Sturt (although some may say Sturt's ahead of North) all over 50%. By my calculations (subject to scrutiny) the overall closeness between North and Sturt is staggering. According to me as of today, North have played 1891 games for 958 wins, 912 losses and 21 draws. Sturt have played 1897 games for 962 wins, 918 losses and 17 draws. If you just count wins Sturt are ahead by 50.71% to 50.66%, but if you allow half a win for a draw (as I think you should), then North are ahead by 51.22% to 51.16%. It's that close that if they both keep on losing until they play each other (a distinct possibility) and Sturt win, the Double Blues would then be ahead of North whichever way you look at it.

And there record against each other is almost 50:50 as well.

All this is interesting considering North are never mentioned in the past of being in a "BIG 4" yet sturt always are.
COuld this be because of supporter base ?
I can see this as being the only reason and it seems a bit unfair.
North have Farmer and Robran in their history. BY far the most dominant players in their respective positions.
It would be interesting to read a journalists opinion of what would be a BIG 4 pre 1960.
WOuld it be Port, Norwood, and who else?

spell_check wrote:

GWW wrote:

robranisgod wrote:I guess for much of that time Central were competitive whereas my memory of Torrens is that they were mainly uncompetitive. For example between 1981 and 1985 they came ninth every year.

I remember going to a Port/Torrens game in '86 (I think it was 86, could have been '87) at Footy Park. Torrens smashed Port that day, and while Port weren't as strong that year as other years in the 80's, it was surprising how much the Magpies got beaten by that day. Without doing any research at all, I'm assuming in the 1985 off season, they picked up a few players, and perhaps there was the development of such players as Fotia and Chris Lindsay and maybe a few others.

Anyone got info on where Torrens finished the next couple of years after 1985?

10th and 6th

That would have been 1985, when Torrens won with 24.23 to Port 10.16. Torrens beat Port at Alberton in 1986, the only time after 1969.

Didn't Torrens win there in 1974 a couple of weeks after Port ended Glenelg's unbeaten run with a 53 pt win?

Yes, with the highest number of scoring shots by an opposing team at Alberton until North kicked 18.28 in 2007.

Round 4 1974
Torrens 5.5 10.14 13.19 20.24 (144)
Port 6.4 9.8 11.13 15.14 (104)
Alberton, 11481

Edit: Yes, I did say only time after 1969, my apologies.