SA Footy

The battle for Brian Adamson to play with Norwood, attempting to leave West Perth to do so, is one of my earliest clear football memories of off-field drama in SANFL. I clearly remember my grandfather and mum talking about how much he wanted to come to Norwood, but having to go through the Supreme Court to get his clearance. Ultimately, it was the beginning of the rules relating to "restraint of trade" being reviewed for the first time in South Australian football.

After all of that, however, he only played about 20 games, although Sturt fans will rue one of them being the 1978 GF when he booted five goals. Can those who are a bit older than me recall the enormity of the situation and the turmoil it caused?

Speaking of court, I was lead to believe (before my time) there was a dispute between Norwood and Collingwood as to where Fabulous Phil Carman could play, anyone remember how that got sorted out?

Constance_Perm wrote:Speaking of court, I was lead to believe (before my time) there was a dispute between Norwood and Collingwood as to where Fabulous Phil Carman could play, anyone remember how that got sorted out?

He stood out of football for a year I believe (1970 or 1971 maybe). It was over the fact he grew up in Collingwood's country zone in Victoria.

Constance_Perm wrote:Speaking of court, I was lead to believe (before my time) there was a dispute between Norwood and Collingwood as to where Fabulous Phil Carman could play, anyone remember how that got sorted out?

No court was involved. Phil Carman was recuited from Edenhope which was in Collingwood's zone. Norwood put Carman through school at Kings College (now Pembroke), and found his mother employment. They looked after the Carman family financially, so Phil decided he owed Norwood a debt.

Norwood lodged an application with the AFC for a clearance, but Collingwood didn't respond in the time allowed, so Carman was granted a clearance to Norwood in 1970. He was an overnight sensation, made the SA state squad after only 3 games, and played 10 games before Collingwood sat up and took notice.

Believing Carman to be their player, they challenged the initial clearance which was subsequently revoked by the AFC, so Carman was ineligble to play. If Carman was to play footy, he had to play for Collingwod.

Whilst attempting to play soccer, Carman injured a knee. Collingwood, not wanting to foot the medical bills for a player who didn't want to play for them, decided in the goodness of their hearts to clear Carman to Norwood. So the Legs paid his medical costs.

2 years after his clearance was revoked, Carman made his comeback against Woodville at Woodville Oval on 13th May 1972. It didn't take him long to show what a great player he was and Collingwood once again tried to get Phil to play for them, but he insisted he wanted to play for Norwood.

Finally at the end of 1974, Carman decided to give the VFL a go. That didn't surprise me, but the fact he opted to play for Collingwood, the club who had done everything to stuff up his career remains a mystery to me. Believing Carman had already spent enough time out of the game, Norwood cleared him to Collingwood.

Brian Adamson moved to Norwood, sold his house in WA and shifted all his furniture to Adelaide. When Wally Miller informed West Perth they were seeking a clearance, West Perth refused to clear him.

Adamson wasn't sure whether to return to WA or stay in SA. Evenutally a wrangle occured and he was ordered to appear before the Full High Court of Australia in Sydney. Initially it was meant to be the Federal Court in Perth.

The Chief Justice, Sir Garfield Barwick, issued an order temporarily preventing the Federal Court from hearing the case where Adamson accused West Perth's refusal to clear him to Norwood was in breach of the Trades Practices Act.

West Perth's stance was that an incorporated football club was not a trading organisation, and wanted to sue Adamson for a breach of contract.

Eventually, the courts granted Adamson permission to play for Norwood for the remainder of 1978. Several SANFL clubs (God bless them) questioned if it were legal that Norwood play Adamson and suggested Norwood should forfeit premiership points.

Solicitors from the SANFL ruled that Norwood were indeed allowed to play Adamson, so the clearance was final.

Sadly, Adamson has met with pretty tough times since returning to WA, culminating in a marriage break up, drinking problems, and ill health.

He played 20 games, 50 goals for Norwood, and played in the 1978 flag. He played 125 games for West Perth, including the 1975 premiership, and 2 games for WA,.

Adelaide Hawk wrote:

Constance_Perm wrote:Speaking of court, I was lead to believe (before my time) there was a dispute between Norwood and Collingwood as to where Fabulous Phil Carman could play, anyone remember how that got sorted out?

No court was involved. Phil Carman was recuited from Edenhope which was in Collingwood's zone. Norwood put Carman through school at Kings College (now Pembroke), and found his mother employment. They looked after the Carman family financially, so Phil decided he owed Norwood a debt.

Norwood lodged an application with the AFC for a clearance, but Collingwood didn't respond in the time allowed, so Carman was granted a clearance to Norwood in 1970. He was an overnight sensation, made the SA state squad after only 3 games, and played 10 games before Collingwood sat up and took notice.

Believing Carman to be their player, they challenged the initial clearance which was subsequently revoked by the AFC, so Carman was ineligble to play. If Carman was to play footy, he had to play for Collingwod.

Whilst attempting to play soccer, Carman injured a knee. Collingwood, not wanting to foot the medical bills for a player who didn't want to play for them, decided in the goodness of their hearts to clear Carman to Norwood. So the Legs paid his medical costs.

2 years after his clearance was revoked, Carman made his comeback against Woodville at Woodville Oval on 13th May 1972. It didn't take him long to show what a great player he was and Collingwood once again tried to get Phil to play for them, but he insisted he wanted to play for Norwood.

Finally at the end of 1974, Carman decided to give the VFL a go. That didn't surprise me, but the fact he opted to play for Collingwood, the club who had done everything to stuff up his career remains a mystery to me. Believing Carman had already spent enough time out of the game, Norwood cleared him to Collingwood.

Fascinating turn of events, thanks mate.

Adelaide Hawk wrote:He played 20 games, 50 goals for Norwood, and played in the 1978 flag. He played 125 games for West Perth, including the 1975 premiership, and 2 games for WA,.

Not sure how accurate this is, but I'd heard he'd lost a limb or 2 and the inference was that it was related to alcoholism ... Like I said, just what I'd heard and hopefully not the case

Constance_Perm wrote:

Adelaide Hawk wrote:He played 20 games, 50 goals for Norwood, and played in the 1978 flag. He played 125 games for West Perth, including the 1975 premiership, and 2 games for WA,.

Not sure how accurate this is, but I'd heard he'd lost a limb or 2 and the inference was that it was related to alcoholism ... Like I said, just what I'd heard and hopefully not the case

I believe that to be the case, that he'd lost both legs. That was the news that came out of the 1978 premiership reunion they had last season. I'd like to think it's not true, but that was the word.

Adelaide Hawk wrote:

Constance_Perm wrote:

Adelaide Hawk wrote:He played 20 games, 50 goals for Norwood, and played in the 1978 flag. He played 125 games for West Perth, including the 1975 premiership, and 2 games for WA,.

Not sure how accurate this is, but I'd heard he'd lost a limb or 2 and the inference was that it was related to alcoholism ... Like I said, just what I'd heard and hopefully not the case

I believe that to be the case, that he'd lost both legs. That was the news that came out of the 1978 premiership reunion they had last season. I'd like to think it's not true, but that was the word.

Yep, that was where I'd heard it .. Without wanting to get too sidetracked, I wonder if other clubs have as many sad stories that seem to relate to a culture heavily involving alcohol?

Jeez AH, how do you remember all the details?

I remember the legal action but not the specifics.

Unfortunately, seems like a tragic turns of events in the end.

dedja wrote:Jeez AH, how do you remember all the details?

I remember the legal action but not the specifics.

Unfortunately, seems like a tragic turns of events in the end.

I remembered the details except the names of the courts and the judge ... I referred to some notes for that

There wasn't much going on at Norwood back then that I didn't know about.

Adelaide Hawk wrote:

Constance_Perm wrote:Speaking of court, I was lead to believe (before my time) there was a dispute between Norwood and Collingwood as to where Fabulous Phil Carman could play, anyone remember how that got sorted out?

Finally at the end of 1974, Carman decided to give the VFL a go. That didn't surprise me, but the fact he opted to play for Collingwood, the club who had done everything to stuff up his career remains a mystery to me. Believing Carman had already spent enough time out of the game, Norwood cleared him to Collingwood.

Interesting as well for the fact that Carman was suspended following the 1977 preliminary final - that Collingwood won - for two matches and when the grand final was a draw, Collingwood took the matter to court, arguing that being suspended for two grand finals was way beyond the punishment that the infringement deserved but the court wouldn't budge and Carman missed the replay as well.
Was a few Collingwood people that felt Carman cost the club the 1977 premiership.

Sorry to digress for the moment but ...

Phil Carmen was so ahead of time it wasn't funny.

He was one of the first (if not the first) to take fitness to a new level, he was entirely self motivated and legend has it he didn't gel well with team mates in the VFL because he did things his way and didn't need or care about the coach. (AH, was this different at Norwood ... I suspect so).

The thing that will never be explained in my mind is despite the enormous talent, physical fitness and football brain, he has those infamous brain explosions that ultimately cost him his career.

ORDoubleBlues wrote:

Adelaide Hawk wrote:

Constance_Perm wrote:Speaking of court, I was lead to believe (before my time) there was a dispute between Norwood and Collingwood as to where Fabulous Phil Carman could play, anyone remember how that got sorted out?

Finally at the end of 1974, Carman decided to give the VFL a go. That didn't surprise me, but the fact he opted to play for Collingwood, the club who had done everything to stuff up his career remains a mystery to me. Believing Carman had already spent enough time out of the game, Norwood cleared him to Collingwood.

Interesting as well for the fact that Carman was suspended following the 1977 preliminary final - that Collingwood won - for two matches and when the grand final was a draw, Collingwood took the matter to court, arguing that being suspended for two grand finals was way beyond the punishment that the infringement deserved but the court wouldn't budge and Carman missed the replay as well.
Was a few Collingwood people that felt Carman cost the club the 1977 premiership.

Jimmy_041 being one of them, which is difficult because he was my hero. Best footballer I ever saw

dedja wrote:Sorry to digress for the moment but ...

Phil Carmen was so ahead of time it wasn't funny.

He was one of the first (if not the first) to take fitness to a new level, he was entirely self motivated and legend has it he didn't gel well with team mates in the VFL because he did things his way and didn't need or care about the coach. (AH, was this different at Norwood ... I suspect so).

The thing that will never be explained in my mind is despite the enormous talent, physical fitness and football brain, he has those infamous brain explosions that ultimately cost him his career.

I was at school with him although 4-5 years behind him. He was absolutely dominant in schoolboys. Kings always got a big crowd at its games because we were the football school due to the Norwood connection. There were only about 400 boys but a lot of boarders were on Norwood scholarships to the school. We would regularly knock off PAC, SPSC and Sacred Heart and would get around 2-300 to each game, but when Carmen came along, the crowd at 1st 18 games were far larger. He was the Wayne Carey of the VFL. He used to lose it mainly because he is so intense - He was not someone to leave it on the field. I was sat next to him at a Sturt lunch when he was Coach and he was still intense even though we were there as potential sponsors. I bought Sturt their first tackle bags because he needed them, they couldn't afford them, and he asked me if I could help out.

PS: I didn't tell him I blamed him for 77 - he probably would have declined the bags

Adelaide Hawk wrote:

dedja wrote:Jeez AH, how do you remember all the details?

I remember the legal action but not the specifics.

Unfortunately, seems like a tragic turns of events in the end.

I remembered the details except the names of the courts and the judge ... I referred to some notes for that

There wasn't much going on at Norwood back then that I didn't know about.

In that case, AH, if you don't mind, I'd be curious to know two other things (one not related to this case):

a) How was he received by the players initially, given the massive push to get him there, and then upon him departing after only 20 games?

b) On an unrelated matter: in 1983, I remember a player called Joe Ahmat who wandered into the club looking for a game, booting 5 goals against Central (if memory serves) and then wandering off again a few games later. Do you know what became of him please?

dedja wrote:Sorry to digress for the moment but ...

Phil Carmen was so ahead of time it wasn't funny.

He was one of the first (if not the first) to take fitness to a new level, he was entirely self motivated and legend has it he didn't gel well with team mates in the VFL because he did things his way and didn't need or care about the coach. (AH, was this different at Norwood ... I suspect so).

The thing that will never be explained in my mind is despite the enormous talent, physical fitness and football brain, he has those infamous brain explosions that ultimately cost him his career.

You make some great comments on Carman and his attitude to football as a player. I used to bump into Phil often when he was caretaker at St.Peters College, and we would chat about footy. I wish I had asked him about these issues. The only thing he said along those lines were he "heard" that certain people at Norwood claimed the reason we won the flag in 1975 was that Carman was no longer at the club. I told him if those comments were made, I didn't agree with them. We would have been even better with him still in the team.

Those "brain explosions" weren't evident prior to his 2 year absence from the game. His first 10 games for Norwood were pure brilliance, and total attack on the ball. I have always had a theory that he must have become so frustrated by not playing footy that something happened to his psyche. Upon his return, he would play brilliant football, with occasional acts of pure stupidity, i.e. the day we played South Adelaide and he spent all day trying to whack Bill Bennett.

Carman always played well on the Robrans, Eberts, etc because they were ball players and didn't give Carman any grief. It was the next level of player he struggled with, the kind who would try anything to upset him, and occasionally it worked.

Those "brain explosions" were not evident prior to his 2 year absence from the game. As far as not getting on well with team mates, I can see that. Phil was a different style of person. He wasn't chatty, I can imagine him sitting in the rooms not saying much, just thinking about the task ahead. To some he may seem aloof, to me I always found him very approachable. The trick to having a conversation with Carman was you had to speak to him first.

I will say this about Carman. For a player who spent 2 years out of the game, the 1st year as a fully fit young man unable to play the game he loved, and the 2nd year recovering from a serious knee injury, he lost nothing in the skills department and hopped straight back into it as if he'd never been away. Quite remarkable.

Jimmy_041 wrote:Best footballer I ever saw

We can always buy an argument with such comments, but in terms of pure skill I rate Carman and Darren Jarman as the best two I've seen.

CK wrote:a) How was he received by the players initially, given the massive push to get him there, and then upon him departing after only 20 games?

b) On an unrelated matter: in 1983, I remember a player called Joe Ahmat who wandered into the club looking for a game, booting 5 goals against Central (if memory serves) and then wandering off again a few games later. Do you know what became of him please?

a) I was never aware of any reluctance to accept Brian Adamson. In that era we picked up a number of players from other leagues and SANFL clubs, Von Vertouch, Nunan, Dillon, Parke, Phillis, etc, Adamson was just another recruit.

My memory was the great expection waiting to see him play in a Norwood jumper. You much remember that 5 months had passed from the time he arrived in Adelaide to the time he was finally allowed to play. In the interim, he harbored thoughts of returning to WA but elected to stay, which to me indicates he was happy with the environment at Norwood.

My understanding is Adamson's situation was similar to circumstances that saw Darren Jarman return to Adelaide from Hawthorn. They were both happy to stay where they were, but their wives wanted to return to their home states for various reasons. I think Adamson's wife was in the legal profession and received an excellent offer to return home.

I recall a lot of disappointment in view of the effort made to get him to Norwood in the first place, but life goes on. I think Adamson was disappointed as well. If you recall, that was around the time we appointed Neil Balme as coach, and there was a mass exodus of players from the club such as Neil Craig to Sturt, retirements etc, so there wasn't a lot of focus just on Adamson. Norwood had to start all over again.

b) Yes, Joe Ahmat was an interesting one. He only played 6 games for Norwood and booted 8 goals, 5 of them against Glenelg as you said. He moved to WA where he played for Swan Districts (55 games, 35 goals) and later for Claremont (27 games, 32 goals).

We also had Matthew Ahmat who played 4 games in 1993. he entered the AFL where he played 6 games for Brisbane and 2 for Sydney.

Robert Ahmat was perhaps the more talented of the three and after playing 14 games, 14 goals for Norwood in 2003-04, he headed to Collingwood (25 games, 22 goals) and then to Sydney (42 games, 46 goals).

ORDoubleBlues wrote:Interesting as well for the fact that Carman was suspended following the 1977 preliminary final - that Collingwood won - for two matches and when the grand final was a draw, Collingwood took the matter to court, arguing that being suspended for two grand finals was way beyond the punishment that the infringement deserved but the court wouldn't budge and Carman missed the replay as well.
Was a few Collingwood people that felt Carman cost the club the 1977 premiership.

Yes, I wish I knew what was going through his head that day. Although I was a Hawks supporter I still had an interest in Carman's career and wished for him to show the football world exactly how good I knew he could be.

Whether something happened earlier, who knows? All I know is Michael Tuck was standing there apparently minding his own business when for some unknown reason Carman just ran in and belted him. It was a fair whack too, Tuck was really injured by it. I was so disappointed when I saw it happen.

As you say, it cost him 2 Grand Finals in 2 weeks, and like you, I believe Collingwood would have won the first one with Carman in the team. We'll never know though.