SA Footy

Contributed by Forum Member "Dogwatcher"

Why the Pies won’t win the flag
By ROB McLEAN

THIS is the news all of you anti-Collingwood football supporters wanted to hear.
Collingwood will not win the 2009 AFL flag.
Not because they are stuffed after that enthralling semi-final victory over Adelaide played in hot and balmy conditions. And not because the other sides are better than them.
By the way, you Adelaide supporters who thought the Crows were a chance to win the flag if they’d got past the Pies, you had no chance either.
Why you ask?
Try these names on for size: Jason Akermanis, Cameron Mooney, Adam Schneider and Steven King.
Anything you notice about them?
Yes, all four are premiership players, several of them multiple. Anything else?
All have played in a premiership at a club other than the one they are currently playing for.
Akermanis was a star at Brisbane in their trifecta, Mooney had a forgettable match in the 99 North Melbourne victory, Schneider won his with the Swans, while King was a late call up in Geelong’s 07 flag.
Neither Collingwood and Adelaide have a player in their side who has achieved this.
There are only 26 players who have won premierships with two clubs (Schneider and King hope to be numbers 27 and 28).
And it would seem that part of the premiership success recipe of the current day is to include a player who has enjoyed the ultimate at another club.
Since Darren Jarman became a dual premiership player with the Crows in 1997/98 all but three flag winning teams have done it with a star who’d taken the title at another club (North in 99, Essendon in 00 and West Coast in 06).
Jarman of course won his first flag with the Hawks.
Prior to that, you have to search deep into the record books to find a player who had recorded the feat.
Other players to have tasted success in this period at two clubs were Martin Pike (North and Brisbane), Blake Caracella (Essendon and Brisbane), Gavin Wanganeen (Essendon and Port), Byron Pickett (North and Port), Damien Hardwick (Essendon and Port), Jason Ball (West Coast and Sydney) and Stuart Dew (Port and Hawthorn).
So, judging by that fact, the Saints will win this year’s flag as they have two players who have succeeded at other clubs.

I guess this also leads to the discussion about players winning a premiership and where it puts them in greatness levels.

To think a player like Martin Pyke has 4(?) premiership medals yet would hardly be considered a great of our game, then there are players at the opposite end of the scale such as Nathan Buckley and Robert Harvey who never tasted the ultimate success but would be in most peoples top 20 midfielders of all time.

Do people think players who have never won a premiership, can be rated in the same breathe as players who achived grand final glory?

whufc wrote:Do people think players who have never won a premiership, can be rated in the same breathe as players who achived grand final glory?

Absolutely ... Having played in a premiership doesn't mean a lot when assessing the careers of many players.

Constance_Perm wrote:

whufc wrote:Do people think players who have never won a premiership, can be rated in the same breathe as players who achived grand final glory?

Absolutely ... Having played in a premiership doesn't mean a lot when assessing the careers of many players.

Playing well in the last two weeks of the year certainly enhances reputations, but there are so many other factors that make it impossible to generalise, including ability of team-mates, and the stage in your career. For example, Goodwin has had a great career, but does his performance in a GF in his first year enhance his overall reputation? (I can't remember how well he played that day, was he in the better players?) Conversely, McLeod, in his third year, had his reputation greatly enhanced by his GF performance(s), even though they were in the same premiership.

Or to put it another way, if Paul Stewart plays 200 games for the Eagles, Budget player of the year, club captain, and Magarey favouritism, does the fact he played in a premiership in his second game and lasted five minutes enhance his reputation above Gavin Colville?

whufc wrote:Do people think players who have never won a premiership, can be rated in the same breathe as players who achived grand final glory?

You're asking can Robert Harvey be rated in the same breath as Aaron Keating?

nickname wrote:

whufc wrote:Do people think players who have never won a premiership, can be rated in the same breathe as players who achived grand final glory?

You're asking can Robert Harvey be rated in the same breath as Aaron Keating?

Of course not, Keating was a gun

nickname wrote:

whufc wrote:Do people think players who have never won a premiership, can be rated in the same breathe as players who achived grand final glory?

You're asking can Robert Harvey be rated in the same breath as Aaron Keating?

You need to separate individual achievements from team achievements otherwise Shane Ellen > Tony Lockett.

One shouldn't be muddled up with the other otherwise you unfairly deny accolades to deserving players who played for the wrong club in the wrong era. In this context, wrong means not lucky enough to be the premier team.

whufc, do you think all Centrals' players pre 2000 can now not be rated in the same breath as the 2000-2008 era? At least 4 Magery medallists come to mind who never played in a premiership team (at Centrals).

PS: I know you weren't arguing one way or the other. I just use Centrals as an example.

I can't understand the debate about super-star players not deserving that status simply because they did not play in a flag. It's like saying they were to blame for not getting the team to the flag? How could you say Bob Skilton is not a great/legend/star etc. player because South Melbourne didn't win a flag? The closest they came in all of his career was a semi final. So, using logic about this super-star status, it was his fault that was the case?

hondo71 wrote:

nickname wrote:

whufc wrote:Do people think players who have never won a premiership, can be rated in the same breathe as players who achived grand final glory?

You're asking can Robert Harvey be rated in the same breath as Aaron Keating?

You need to separate individual achievements from team achievements otherwise Shane Ellen > Tony Lockett.

One shouldn't be muddled up with the other otherwise you unfairly deny accolades to deserving players who played for the wrong club in the wrong era. In this context, wrong means not lucky enough to be the premier team.

whufc, do you think all Centrals' players pre 2000 can now not be rated in the same breath as the 2000-2008 era? At least 4 Magery medallists come to mind who never played in a premiership team (at Centrals).

PS: I know you weren't arguing one way or the other. I just use Centrals as an example.

I was just posing the question, i agree with every word you said there, i was just starting a discussion.

I once to said, to a group of Gary Ablett Snr worshippers at work, that I would pick Wayne Carey over Ablett any day.
My reason is that Carey could grab his team, or a match, by the scruff of the neck and make it his. And while Carey did have two average GF games in North's 96&99 flag team, I believe that his leadership style had rubbed off significantly on his teammates.
Carey had that ruthless ability to change a game, Ablett,Lockett,Harvey Skilton etc did not.
I emphasise the word ruthless.

Correct, they won't ...

Dogwatcher wrote:Since Darren Jarman became a dual premiership player with the Crows in 1997/98 all but three flag winning teams have done it with a star who’d taken the title at another club (North in 99, Essendon in 00 and West Coast in 06).

.......Just to add that also that the three above teams that didn't have a premiership player from another club had at least one from their clubs last premiership.
2006 West Coast had Drew Banfield from 1994
2000 Essendon had Fletcher, Wallis, Long, Misiti, Mercuri, Hird and Bewick from 1993
1999 North Melbourne had Carey, Blakey, Martyn, Stevens, King, Bell, Simpson, Archer, Allison, Sholl, Capuano and McKernan from 1996

So Collingwood in '90, West Coast in '92 and North in '96 are the only teams that have won the flag in the AFL era without a past premiership player involved.

Just thought I'd look at this story again.

Collingwood now has a premiership player on its list - Darren Jolly. Could he be the missing piece of the puzzle?

The Bulldogs have lost Akermanis but still have Hall.
Freo are no chance, as they have no premiership player, while Judd is at Carlton.

Schneider, King and Mooney remain at their respective clubs.

Hawthorn have their long list of premiership players, along with Port title winner Shaun Burgoyne, while Sydney also have a multitude of players from their most recent win on the list.

Freo can't win the flag, no premiership players there.

Mr66 wrote:I once to said, to a group of Gary Ablett Snr worshippers at work, that I would pick Wayne Carey over Ablett any day.
My reason is that Carey could grab his team, or a match, by the scruff of the neck and make it his. And while Carey did have two average GF games in North's 96&99 flag team, I believe that his leadership style had rubbed off significantly on his teammates.
Carey had that ruthless ability to change a game, Ablett,Lockett,Harvey Skilton etc did not.
I emphasise the word ruthless.

If you tried that one on me I might point out that the North Melbourne teams of the time had a pretty good defence but the Cats of Ablett's era did not. I'd pick Gazza over Carey any day because Gary played in more than one position thus making him more versatile. As for ruthless, check out the 1989 Grand Final and the severe bump he applied to Robert Deperdiminco. While you are at it, have a look at some of the goals he made happen for the Cats. It wasn't Gazza's fault we couldn' beat the Hawks who were hardened professionals. Perhaps if we had played Sydney 96 or Carlton 99 we would have won two flags as well.

As for Skilton, give me a break. South were crap when he played. Believe it or not, North had many other standout players during Carey's time at the Roos. Imagine a Swchass, Sholl, Harvey, Archer, Stevens, Roberts, Longmire and McKernan lining up for the mighty Swans or Plugger and Harvey's Saints?

You are way off dude.

regards,

REB

Dogwatcher wrote:Contributed by Forum Member "Dogwatcher"

Why the Pies won’t win the flag
By ROB McLEAN

THIS is the news all of you anti-Collingwood football supporters wanted to hear.
Collingwood will not win the 2009 AFL flag.
Not because they are stuffed after that enthralling semi-final victory over Adelaide played in hot and balmy conditions. And not because the other sides are better than them.
By the way, you Adelaide supporters who thought the Crows were a chance to win the flag if they’d got past the Pies, you had no chance either.
Why you ask?
Try these names on for size: Jason Akermanis, Cameron Mooney, Adam Schneider and Steven King.
Anything you notice about them?
Yes, all four are premiership players, several of them multiple. Anything else?
All have played in a premiership at a club other than the one they are currently playing for.
Akermanis was a star at Brisbane in their trifecta, Mooney had a forgettable match in the 99 North Melbourne victory, Schneider won his with the Swans, while King was a late call up in Geelong’s 07 flag.
Neither Collingwood and Adelaide have a player in their side who has achieved this.
There are only 26 players who have won premierships with two clubs (Schneider and King hope to be numbers 27 and 28).
And it would seem that part of the premiership success recipe of the current day is to include a player who has enjoyed the ultimate at another club.
Since Darren Jarman became a dual premiership player with the Crows in 1997/98 all but three flag winning teams have done it with a star who’d taken the title at another club (North in 99, Essendon in 00 and West Coast in 06).
Jarman of course won his first flag with the Hawks.
Prior to that, you have to search deep into the record books to find a player who had recorded the feat.
Other players to have tasted success in this period at two clubs were Martin Pike (North and Brisbane), Blake Caracella (Essendon and Brisbane), Gavin Wanganeen (Essendon and Port), Byron Pickett (North and Port), Damien Hardwick (Essendon and Port), Jason Ball (West Coast and Sydney) and Stuart Dew (Port and Hawthorn).
So, judging by that fact, the Saints will win this year’s flag as they have two players who have succeeded at other clubs.

you still think this now?

That was written a year ago. Collingwood have Jolly in their side now, who won a premiership with Sydney. So, DW's theory suggests the Pies can win!

Still going the Saints...