Winning a flag before you are ready to.

[Mr66]

I said to some workmates during the week that if Hawthorn had lost last years GF, then they would have been in a better position this year to win the flag and be in a better position to win one or two more in the next 5-6 years.
Last year for Hawthorn ,I think (rather perversely!) has put them back 2-3 years.
Thoughts?

[Voice]

I think that playing what they called 'un-socialable footy' last year is what hurt them this year.
The injuries they had really put an end to being able to prepare for this season in the way they would have liked.
Their gameplan was all about forcing a contest with the rolling zone they applied and then winning that contested ball with hard, tough footy.
Quite simply, they couldn't get their bodies up for it again.

[gadj1976]

Completely agree Mr66.

It seems it fires the hunger (losing a GF). I think Port to a degree have suffered since winning in 04 as well.

I was thinking the other day that Clarko said that they had a 5 year plan. In the second year they surprised themselves with a flag (he admitted, it was ahead of schedule), so that meant they had to set new goals - difficult to do midway through a 5 year plan. Of course injuries curtailed any chance to back up their premiership campaign but I don't think the hunger was there this year either.

[Wedgie]

It seems Geelong are just really good at stuffing other club's futures up, Ports by flogging them and Hawthorn by losing!
We work on a new club every year, in about 15 years time every club will be stuffed except for Geelong and we'll win every flag for the rest of eternity!

[JK]

I think that playing what they called 'un-socialable footy' last year is what hurt them this year.
The injuries they had really put an end to being able to prepare for this season in the way they would have liked.
Their gameplan was all about forcing a contest with the rolling zone they applied and then winning that contested ball with hard, tough footy.
Quite simply, they couldn't get their bodies up for it again.

Good post mate .. They will improve in 2010 as they get more games into players that were missing for much of this year, but they'll need to find replacements for blokes like Croad and Dew - hopefully their forced playing of 2nd tier players this season will have sped up their development, and address any holes.

[redden whites]

Yep ,I am sure they regret it totally I have heard it all now!

[NFC]

How about youngsters winning a flag before they are 'ready' to?

As redden whites said though, winning a flag is just that, incredibly tough to do so no team or player would ever take it lightly.

But what about 19/20 y/o's in their first or second seasons that win flags, they've done it all haven't they? Like Rioli and Selwood, they achieved the ultimate glory in their first seasons. You have to wonder whether they would be able to fully appreciate it. GF success would have to be sweeter for the veterans due to all the hard work and doubs whether they'd ever get there.

[JK]

I dont think anyone's suggesting the Hawks wished they hadn't won it ... The question itself is a reasonable one, just in terms of whether it added any disruption to their initial plan.

[Hondo]

I think you take a flag when you can get it. I'd rather take 1 known flag now v a good chance for 2 flags in 2012-13. So many things have to go right for a flag (just ask Geelong) so if the door's open you go through it while you can.

Plain english ... there's no guarantees that this Hawthorn squad is going to get their again. Dynasties are rare these days. History may show that they were "ready" in 2008 and that's the only chance they got.

I am not convinced on Voice's correlation between "unsociable football" and their injuries this year. What's the link and which players are examples?

[devilsadvocate]

Completely agree Mr66.

It seems it fires the hunger (losing a GF). I think Port to a degree have suffered since winning in 04 as well.

Sorry, but how is this so?

Port were around the mark since 2001 when they finished 3rd. They then went on to win 3 successive McClellend trophies between 2002-2004 and finally broke through to win the flag in 2004.

If Port had won the flag in 2001, then gone downhill as we've witnessed since 2004, then I'd agree with your point. However, the Power did the hard yards, went through a fair amount of finals pain (self inflicted mainly) and then finally grew a set and won the flag after maturing as finals contenders.

Perhaps Port making the GF in 2007 set us back a few years, despite losing?

[devilsadvocate]

I think you take a flag when you can get it. I'd rather take 1 known flag now v a good chance for 2 flags in 2012-13. So many things have to go right for a flag (just ask Geelong) so if the door's open you go through it while you can.

I agree totally with this.

I don't think the supporters of any club would trade winning a flag for anything. Obviously it would be better to win 2 or 3 or more in short succession, but if my side was in a great position to win the current flag despite maybe being a bit youthful or immature etc, versus having a good crack at the next couple, I'd definitely be gunning for a win straight up at the expense of whatever might happen in the next 2 or 3.

Anything could happen - injuries, bust ups, captain shags teams mates missus, drug cheats, anything.

Bottom line - take a flag when it's your for the taking.

[JK]

I think you take a flag when you can get it. I'd rather take 1 known flag now v a good chance for 2 flags in 2012-13. So many things have to go right for a flag (just ask Geelong) so if the door's open you go through it while you can.

I agree totally with this.

I don't think the supporters of any club would trade winning a flag for anything. Obviously it would be better to win 2 or 3 or more in short succession, but if my side was in a great position to win the current flag despite maybe being a bit youthful or immature etc, versus having a good crack at the next couple, I'd definitely be gunning for a win straight up at the expense of whatever might happen in the next 2 or 3.

Anything could happen - injuries, bust ups, captain shags teams mates missus, drug cheats, anything.

Bottom line - take a flag when it's your for the taking.

I think you guys are missing the point ... Of course noone in their right mind would pass up winning a flag at ANY opportunity, that's just a given.

If the question was "Has Hawthorn's flag (ahead of expected schedule) had an effect on their initial 5 year plan and where they expected to be in 2012", it would be a legitimate topic for discussion (IMHO).

Hell, would the plan even need to be the same after achieving the success so quickly?

In the Powers case, they would have had a long term plan for success they hoped to achieve and you could argue whether making the Grand Final so early in that plan in 07, was beneficial or detrimental to their schedule.

[Hondo]

CP, what we are saying is that there's no guarantee that this "planned" premiership in 2012 was ever going to happen and, if you believe some of the current coaches (and look at Richmond's "5 year plan") it's just not something you can plan for and predict like that anyway.

Has it set them back? Maybe, maybe not ... who knows? The thread topic was "winning a flag before you are ready". I am debating that Hawthorn weren't ready in 2008. They looked very good all year and were clearly one of the top 2 sides. Despite their young overall list, their first 22 was a solid, experienced group that has already lost 2 to retirement. I think they were very ready in 08.

So then we look at 2009 and St Kilda have clearly stepped up and are (IMO) a better side already than Hawks '08. Geelong have kept their standard up and most agreed they were better than Hawks '08 to begin with. So even a fully fit and motivated Hawthorn were no sure thing this year. Next year = who knows?

As you pointed out, already Crawford and Dew are gone from the '08 side. Croad is struggling. Other guys are older. It could well be that, despite all the careful planning, 2008 was it for them.

I guess we are saying that, even if it has set them back, so what? Take the flag, throw out your now redundant "5 year plan" and write a new one. Then pray to the footy gods

[silicone skyline]

Who will feel more ripped off if they don't win it this year though?

Geelong or St Kilda?

[MatteeG]

Who will feel more ripped off if they don't win it this year though?

Geelong or St Kilda?

Either. Both have reasons to be disappointed if they dont win it. Saints had a sterling season, Geelong have had a prolonged period of dominance.

Reckon they will be the ones duking it out in the last weekend of September.

[JK]

I guess we are saying that, even if it has set them back, so what? Take the flag, throw out your now redundant "5 year plan" and write a new one. Then pray to the footy gods

LOL Well I don't think anyone would argue with that ... I just thought it was an interesting question in terms of whether it would have had an impact on where they saw themselves down the track.

In the end though you're right it doesn't matter - You win the flag any time in that period and it's mission accomplished.