Showdown XXX

[Footy Smart]

So Crows havent won a flag or even gone close since 1998, guess who has been at the club the whole time?

He was there in 97 and 98 too though lol

Irrespective, I think everyone can see that his time is up and I reckon the man himself knows it .. I can't recall him looking more resigned or lost for a reason for a performance than in Sat night's post match conference.

Did you see his face when someone asked him about Plan B?

He barely contained himself I reckon - "plan ******* B, I'll give you plan ******* B" was the response written all over his face.

Scott Thompson's comment in todays 'Tiser "You dont need a Plan B if you are committed enough to Plan A" is all well and good, but what if Plan A is simply shithouse and doesn't work?

All this plan A B Bullsh*t is just that Bullsh*t. Every side, including AFC does their planning on how they will play on the weekend and then try and execute the planing they have done. You can have Plan A B C D E F but if they players arent committed to the contest they wont execute anything (as evident on the weekend). No expereince to hault Ports charge and the result speaks for itself. Not the coaches fault the players stopped working and executing the plan

[Gingernuts]

Agreed FS, I'm not sure where this whole Plan B thing comes from. I mean, do other coaches have a filing cabinet that they leaf through when their initial plans and structures fall apart? Or a glass case they 'break in case of emergency'? I don't think so.

I'm sure Neil Craig and his staff tried Plan B - Z last Saturday night, but none of them worked, plain and simple.

If having a working Plan B was that simple, then it would be done. Even better if there was a Plan B that worked, then it would be Plan A.

Bottom line is once a young side is gripped by self doubt, Plan double A whatever will be no help at all. You've just gotta hold on tight and hope the rollercoaster goes back up at some stage. It did for one team and coach last Saturday night, it didn't for the other, and that's football.

[JK]

No doubt they would have tried things, but he is ALWAYS slow to change things up .. If it does happens it's usually after the horse has bolted. He's been persisting with Johncock as the main set-up man in the backlines for ages, but the opposition like everyone else knows this and plan to take him out of the game, which they've done easily.

Johncock is too big an impact player for the Crows, that they can't afford for him to have minimal input.

His faith in the players is admirable, but that has impeded his inclination to make structural changes during games, to the team's detriment .. And the instances of occurrence has increased almost yearly.

I understand the point many are making that once on the field there's only so much the coach can do .. He can't tackle, chase, harass, smother, wait under a pack, hit targets or hold marks etc, BUT he IS ultimately responsible for the players he has assembled to perform these duties.

He's in what, his 8th season and it's looking as though his 7th and 8th seasons will be the worst in his time .. IMHO that clearly says the club needs a shake-up and to try different path's, so unfortunately if you're further away in 8 years than you were after 2, your time has to be up in anyone's language IMHO.

[whufc]

The Crows did the right thing by the triple x showdown and bent over and took it...........................................................

[dedja]

you mean like Gold Coast do every week?

[whufc]

you mean like Gold Coast do every week?

but our blokes are that young it could land the other team in jail.

plus the GC are so much closer to a premiership than the crows.

[dedja]

might be true ... players are definitely richer though

[Footy Smart]

No doubt they would have tried things, but he is ALWAYS slow to change things up .. If it does happens it's usually after the horse has bolted. He's been persisting with Johncock as the main set-up man in the backlines for ages, but the opposition like everyone else knows this and plan to take him out of the game, which they've done easily.

Johncock is too big an impact player for the Crows, that they can't afford for him to have minimal input.

His faith in the players is admirable, but that has impeded his inclination to make structural changes during games, to the team's detriment .. And the instances of occurrence has increased almost yearly.

I understand the point many are making that once on the field there's only so much the coach can do .. He can't tackle, chase, harass, smother, wait under a pack, hit targets or hold marks etc, BUT he IS ultimately responsible for the players he has assembled to perform these duties.

He's in what, his 8th season and it's looking as though his 7th and 8th seasons will be the worst in his time .. IMHO that clearly says the club needs a shake-up and to try different path's, so unfortunately if you're further away in 8 years than you were after 2, your time has to be up in anyone's language IMHO.

7th and 8th season with 95% changeover in players in that time and last weekend 11 under 50 games. The style of footy we were playing in the first Qtr and the 2nd half against Hawthorn was what we can expect to come from the group, however with in experience comes inconsistancy.

[JK]

No doubt they would have tried things, but he is ALWAYS slow to change things up .. If it does happens it's usually after the horse has bolted. He's been persisting with Johncock as the main set-up man in the backlines for ages, but the opposition like everyone else knows this and plan to take him out of the game, which they've done easily.

Johncock is too big an impact player for the Crows, that they can't afford for him to have minimal input.

His faith in the players is admirable, but that has impeded his inclination to make structural changes during games, to the team's detriment .. And the instances of occurrence has increased almost yearly.

I understand the point many are making that once on the field there's only so much the coach can do .. He can't tackle, chase, harass, smother, wait under a pack, hit targets or hold marks etc, BUT he IS ultimately responsible for the players he has assembled to perform these duties.

He's in what, his 8th season and it's looking as though his 7th and 8th seasons will be the worst in his time .. IMHO that clearly says the club needs a shake-up and to try different path's, so unfortunately if you're further away in 8 years than you were after 2, your time has to be up in anyone's language IMHO.

7th and 8th season with 95% changeover in players in that time and last weekend 11 under 50 games. The style of footy we were playing in the first Qtr and the 2nd half against Hawthorn was what we can expect to come from the group, however with in experience comes inconsistancy.

But who's ultimately responsible for the playing list?

[am Bays]

A coach can have plan, A, B, C and D, all the way to Z, perfectly planned but unless players want to have a fair dinkum crack and hunt the footy and when they don't have the pill, hunt the body to cause the turnover Plans are not worth the paper they're written on.

This loss rests firmly with the players and their p!ss weak effort from the 18 min mark of the 2nd qtr onwards.

A least the Crows would've been able to save money on dry cleaning and power this week as no guernseys would've needed to be washed and the players wouldn't have needed any ice bath/plunge pool recovery afterwards....

[Footy Smart]

No doubt they would have tried things, but he is ALWAYS slow to change things up .. If it does happens it's usually after the horse has bolted. He's been persisting with Johncock as the main set-up man in the backlines for ages, but the opposition like everyone else knows this and plan to take him out of the game, which they've done easily.

Johncock is too big an impact player for the Crows, that they can't afford for him to have minimal input.

His faith in the players is admirable, but that has impeded his inclination to make structural changes during games, to the team's detriment .. And the instances of occurrence has increased almost yearly.

I understand the point many are making that once on the field there's only so much the coach can do .. He can't tackle, chase, harass, smother, wait under a pack, hit targets or hold marks etc, BUT he IS ultimately responsible for the players he has assembled to perform these duties.

He's in what, his 8th season and it's looking as though his 7th and 8th seasons will be the worst in his time .. IMHO that clearly says the club needs a shake-up and to try different path's, so unfortunately if you're further away in 8 years than you were after 2, your time has to be up in anyone's language IMHO.

7th and 8th season with 95% changeover in players in that time and last weekend 11 under 50 games. The style of footy we were playing in the first Qtr and the 2nd half against Hawthorn was what we can expect to come from the group, however with in experience comes inconsistancy.

But who's ultimately responsible for the playing list?

IMO Craig inherited an average list, all played a reasonable amount of games and if anything over achieved with the list we had.

He is partly responsible for the list now not soley though. He has bought in a squad which will play for the AFC for the next 10 years and is very capable of success.

It was only 3 weeks ago everyone was praising the team and the youngsters and now its doom and gloom sack the coach etc you guys cant be seriously that touchy to a bad loss, every club has them from time to time and alot of clubs are and have been in far worse positions than AFC is right now thats for sure. 1 bad loss to an average team and everyone panics. Freo are a good side and will be around the 4 so our young side losing to them in no real issue for mine, 1 bad Qtr cost us. Last weekend was shizen after qtr time but POrt get up for them games and the managed to get the momentum and without experience we couldnt wrestle it back.

Everyone needs to settle down I think.

[Gingernuts]

Both of you have very valid points.

Yes - Adelaide's current form can be attributed to a young inexperienced side.

BUT

Is this the result of poor management of ageing stars over the last couple of years?
(I personally don't think so)

Would a new face at the helm and some fresh ideas get more out of the young list than the 8 year coach?
(We will know this by the end of the year IMO)

All in all this discussion has been far too sensible really.

[JK]

No doubt they would have tried things, but he is ALWAYS slow to change things up .. If it does happens it's usually after the horse has bolted. He's been persisting with Johncock as the main set-up man in the backlines for ages, but the opposition like everyone else knows this and plan to take him out of the game, which they've done easily.

Johncock is too big an impact player for the Crows, that they can't afford for him to have minimal input.

His faith in the players is admirable, but that has impeded his inclination to make structural changes during games, to the team's detriment .. And the instances of occurrence has increased almost yearly.

I understand the point many are making that once on the field there's only so much the coach can do .. He can't tackle, chase, harass, smother, wait under a pack, hit targets or hold marks etc, BUT he IS ultimately responsible for the players he has assembled to perform these duties.

He's in what, his 8th season and it's looking as though his 7th and 8th seasons will be the worst in his time .. IMHO that clearly says the club needs a shake-up and to try different path's, so unfortunately if you're further away in 8 years than you were after 2, your time has to be up in anyone's language IMHO.

7th and 8th season with 95% changeover in players in that time and last weekend 11 under 50 games. The style of footy we were playing in the first Qtr and the 2nd half against Hawthorn was what we can expect to come from the group, however with in experience comes inconsistancy.

But who's ultimately responsible for the playing list?

IMO Craig inherited an average list, all played a reasonable amount of games and if anything over achieved with the list we had.

He is partly responsible for the list now not soley though. He has bought in a squad which will play for the AFC for the next 10 years and is very capable of success.

It was only 3 weeks ago everyone was praising the team and the youngsters and now its doom and gloom sack the coach etc you guys cant be seriously that touchy to a bad loss, every club has them from time to time and alot of clubs are and have been in far worse positions than AFC is right now thats for sure. 1 bad loss to an average team and everyone panics. Freo are a good side and will be around the 4 so our young side losing to them in no real issue for mine, 1 bad Qtr cost us. Last weekend was shizen after qtr time but POrt get up for them games and the managed to get the momentum and without experience we couldnt wrestle it back.

Everyone needs to settle down I think.

He may well have over achieved, but then he just as much may have underachieved since .. Im not one for the immediate calling of a coaches head, but 8 years is long enough at a club to make an impact IMHO.

I dont think many of the calls for a new coach are knee-jerk - Perhaps 3 years ago they were, but thats about how long we've been hearing them so they surely can't be impulsive reaction now.

I personally believe the Crows need to enter a new era, and that starts with the senior coach and a fresh coaching group .. Starting to turn into Richmond under Wallace (lol ok, fair exaggeration there) or Ken Judge

[Dirko]

7th and 8th season with 95% changeover in players in that time and last weekend 11 under 50 games. The style of footy we were playing in the first Qtr and the 2nd half against Hawthorn was what we can expect to come from the group, however with in experience comes inconsistancy.

95% player changeover in 2 seasons

2010 saw the back of;
Nathan Bock (GC)
Brett Burton (ret.)
Brian Donnelly** (ret.)
Tyson Edwards (ret.)
Simon Goodwin (ret.)
Jonathon Griffin (trd)
Trent Hentschel (ret.)
Jarrhan Jacky
Andrew McLeod (ret.)

2009 saw the back of;
Greg Gallman
Nick Gill
Aaron Kite
Tom Lee
James Moss
Robert Shirley

39 on the list so that's 15 blokes over 2 seasons = 38% of player turnover.
Geelong has turned over 13
Collingwood 15
Carlton turned over 11 from last season alone.

The numbers the Crows have turned over is about average.

[Footy Smart]

7th and 8th season with 95% changeover in players in that time and last weekend 11 under 50 games. The style of footy we were playing in the first Qtr and the 2nd half against Hawthorn was what we can expect to come from the group, however with in experience comes inconsistancy.

95% player changeover in 2 seasons

2010 saw the back of;
Nathan Bock (GC)
Brett Burton (ret.)
Brian Donnelly** (ret.)
Tyson Edwards (ret.)
Simon Goodwin (ret.)
Jonathon Griffin (trd)
Trent Hentschel (ret.)
Jarrhan Jacky
Andrew McLeod (ret.)

2009 saw the back of;
Greg Gallman
Nick Gill
Aaron Kite
Tom Lee
James Moss
Robert Shirley

39 on the list so that's 15 blokes over 2 seasons = 38% of player turnover.
Geelong has turned over 13
Collingwood 15
Carlton turned over 11 from last season alone.

The numbers the Crows have turned over is about average.

Sorry talking about his time as Coach 8th season i believe

[Footy Smart]

He may well have over achieved, but then he just as much may have underachieved since .. Im not one for the immediate calling of a coaches head, but 8 years is long enough at a club to make an impact IMHO.

I dont think many of the calls for a new coach are knee-jerk - Perhaps 3 years ago they were, but thats about how long we've been hearing them so they surely can't be impulsive reaction now.

I personally believe the Crows need to enter a new era, and that starts with the senior coach and a fresh coaching group .. Starting to turn into Richmond under Wallace (lol ok, fair exaggeration there) or Ken Judge

But then again, how long is to long? How long between Micks Collingwood premierships? How long was Bomber in charge before they won a premiership? Only 1 coach can achieve the ultimate 'success' each season. 1 out of bounds on the full, one free kick against can be the difference between making a GF and not. We have expereinced that (what rle did NC have in those 2 key moments?) We have been around the mark, made what 2 prelims and missed the finals once? not a bad coaching record with a slightly 'above average' squad. Now we see the rebuilding of a squad without bottoming out. Fair achievement IMO, id rather have a few bad games throughout the year andbe shown plenty of promise (which i think we are seeing) and not finish bottom 2 for 3 years while the squad completely changes.

What is to say an unproven coach will get anything different out of the squad. Will he be able to stop the players from going missing after 2nd qtr like last week? NO

As Rednuts said, far to sensible conversation on this topic

[JK]

He may well have over achieved, but then he just as much may have underachieved since .. Im not one for the immediate calling of a coaches head, but 8 years is long enough at a club to make an impact IMHO.

I dont think many of the calls for a new coach are knee-jerk - Perhaps 3 years ago they were, but thats about how long we've been hearing them so they surely can't be impulsive reaction now.

I personally believe the Crows need to enter a new era, and that starts with the senior coach and a fresh coaching group .. Starting to turn into Richmond under Wallace (lol ok, fair exaggeration there) or Ken Judge

But then again, how long is to long? How long between Micks Collingwood premierships? How long was Bomber in charge before they won a premiership? Only 1 coach can achieve the ultimate 'success' each season. 1 out of bounds on the full, one free kick against can be the difference between making a GF and not. We have expereinced that (what rle did NC have in those 2 key moments?) We have been around the mark, made what 2 prelims and missed the finals once? not a bad coaching record with a slightly 'above average' squad. Now we see the rebuilding of a squad without bottoming out. Fair achievement IMO, id rather have a few bad games throughout the year andbe shown plenty of promise (which i think we are seeing) and not finish bottom 2 for 3 years while the squad completely changes.

What is to say an unproven coach will get anything different out of the squad. Will he be able to stop the players from going missing after 2nd qtr like last week? NO

As Rednuts said, far to sensible conversation on this topic

Mick did win finals with Collingwood and took them (unexpectedly to most) to consecutive Grand Finals .. One of the biggest question marks surrounding Craig is his inability to win finals matches (personally I think nearly all of those losses were because the opposition were just better ... But it remains a question mark nonetheless).

I reckon an argument can be made in support and defence of NC, which probably means that noone can be certain either way (whether he's capable of achieving something great) .. I just think that 8 years is probably long enough to have instilled your ways and stamped your mark on the group and club, and like the bottom line on a P&L statement, the results don't lie.

[Rik E Boy]

you mean like Gold Coast do every week?

but our blokes are that young it could land the other team in jail.

plus the GC are so much closer to a premiership than the crows.

I remember St Kilda saying that. Youth does not always equate to premierships. You blokes will be trading away draft picks to get some experience into your club over the next couple of years...if not, you should be.

regards,

REB

[am Bays]

How the hell did Adelaide lose to that rabble???